Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

History, religion and culture
rshankar
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#51 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by rshankar »

Sure that was a scientist?

sankark
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#52 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by sankark »

RSR wrote: 09 Jul 2020, 23:49 The Pandyan kings were originally from Mathsyadesam on the banks of Yamuna. Puranaanooru says that Pandyans were the descendants of Pandavas of Mahabaratha War.
Interesting. Unless well supported, this could be construed as rewrting the history. I was under the impression that a pAndiya king took part in the war and/or fed the armies. That wouldn't tie with the descendants of the war.

RSR
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#53 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by RSR »

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivi_Kingdom
The southerly movement of the Sivis is also evidenced from their other settlement called Usinara near Yamuna, ruled by Sivi king called Usinara.[32] Sivis also are attested to have one settlement in Sind, another one in Madhyamika (Tambavati Nagri) near Chittore (in Rajputana) and yet another one on the Dasa Kumara-chrita on the banks of the Kaveri in southern India (Karnataka/Tamil Nadu).[
http://rsramaswamy.blogspot.com/2013/04 ... alism.html

Luckily , you can read and write chaste Thamizh.

@sankark
It was the Chera king Perunchotru Uthiyal Adhan that is sung in Puranannooru as the king who fed both the armies in the great Mahabaratha war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthiyan_Cheralathan

It was common practice of poets to refer to ancestors of patrons.

Not the Pandyans. for the Pandyans were descendants of the Pandavas. as mentioned in PuraNaanooru poem cited above . It also speaks of the Cholas of those times. Kindly read the English part of the blog also with clear maps.


For a clear understanding, we should read about the history of Ancient India before the formation of the Magadha empire. ( pre-Buddhist). We must also read about the warring kingdoms of today's Iraq ( then known as Mesopotamia - the land between the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates). ACDas identifies the three kingdoms as Assyria ( North Iraq)- Cheras, Central Iraq ( Chaldea- Chola) and Sumeria ( Pandyans) in southern most Iraq.

What is more, there was also the Elamite civilization just across the border on the Persian side ( mentioned by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru). Nehruji also mentions the occurrence of 'oor' in Babylon such a common place name in Tamil country.even in Sngam literature centuries . Uraiyoor, OKKOOR Maasaathiyar

The rise of Persian kingdom, today's Iran, ended the feuding kingdoms of Iraq and many of the Iraq soldiery were recruited in the Persian army . There was also a large influx of Iraq people into Sind and western India as Sind was part of Persian kingdom. It was around 700 BC. That was the time when there was great university in TAXILA ( purushpuram, Peshawar).Panini lived there. 700 BC

( After the Mesapotamian kingdoms were vanquished, according the Heimendorf, the three Tamil kings ( Chera, Chozha Pandyas) migrated to southern most areas of India as a safe place.

K.A.Nilakanta Sastry quotes authorities to point out the similarities of temple rituals between ancient Sumeria and the Pandyan temples. Moon God * ( Chanrasekaran) is a common theme as also the Mother Goddess riding the Lion. ( Interstingly. the crescent moon is sacred to Islam also!) ....showing the common ancestry of three great religions Hinduism, Christianity and Islam to the Levant.

Mahabaratha war took place in the Gangetic plain in around 1000 BC. The Tamil kings were then living in Rajasthan, Gandharam and today's Punjab, Haryana, and banks of Yamuna ( Mathsyadesam and its adjoining janapadha Surasena desam ).


After the war, there was considerable chaos in the Gangetic plain.


Like the people of USA, Canada, Australia, Newzeland, and even South Africa, and Sicily, the English people feel a common ancestry.

Similarly, the southern most TAMIL kingdoms had blood relations with their compatriots in the Delhi area ( Indraprastham) and Kurukshethra.


It is significant that Kanyakumari and ThamravarNi areas were famed for Tamizh. ( Pothiya malai). You might have heard of Baratham Paadiya Perundhevanaar. and Aathankoott Aasaan ( thiruvithaabkodu -today's kanyakumari)


Bagavatham explicitly associates Thamizh with Mathsya Avathaaram
https://guruvaayoorkshethram.blogspot.c ... ge_11.html
and another Pandyan king in Gajendra Moksham.
https://guruvaayoorkshethram.blogspot.c ... age_7.html
I can cite many more . but I leave it to you to explore .
--------------
A Tamil historian from Jaffna is insisting that the name Nebuchadnezzaar * ( an Assyrian King) that we come across in college history lessons on MESOPOTAMIA is nothing but Nedunchezhiyan but I would rather connect it with Neduncheralaathan. as Chera country is of Assyrian ancestry.

shankarank
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#54 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by shankarank »

Here is a good paper presentation that deals with issues surrounding the discourse on history of tamizh, it's grammar and various people issues , including the subject of the thread - whether there were divisions in tamizh society!

https://archive.org/details/Tolkappiyam ... 1/mode/2up

shankarank
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#55 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by shankarank »

As regards the ancient vEdic history of India, Shrikanth Talgeri ( a bank clerk - as all Indian academics are sold out) has done research and evolved an alternate theory, and Michael Witzel of Harvard would not buy it.

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/07/

The colonial period is full of confusion and most learned people of India, even tried to enroll into the racial pride of the western colonial scholars.

shankarank
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#56 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by shankarank »

Here is the full account of Pandya migration along with proposed deciphering of Indus script:

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2020 ... eline.html

sankark
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#57 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 09 Aug 2020, 20:17 As regards the ancient vEdic history of India, Shrikanth Talgeri ( a bank clerk - as all Indian academics are sold out) has done research and evolved an alternate theory, and Michael Witzel of Harvard would not buy it.

https://talageri.blogspot.com/2020/07/

The colonial period is full of confusion and most learned people of India, even tried to enroll into the racial pride of the western colonial scholars.
Quite a long article; one needs patience and passion to read it, ruminate and make a mental model. Not yet there.

Though one question came up on a quick read: how appropriate/correct is it to interpret druhyu, anu, puru, etc. as tribes or clans? And to treat rk vEda hymns as recorded history (even oral)?

shankarank
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#58 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by shankarank »

I don't think Shrikanth is the pioneer on interpreting references in Rig vEda as historical pointers. Much of mainstream history has been developed by doing the same thing! Right from Mortimer Wheeler.

In the vEdic tradition, the meaning of vEdas should not be studied independently without guidance from Acharyas. That is the traditional approach to learn and live by vEdic way of life.

Just because they may have poetic, mystical allegories, does not mean real world references , geography, river names, flora, fauna, real people (tribes) are also to be discarded. If history can be deduced from purnaanooru which is also poetry, same standard can be applied here.

Shrikanth is applying the same standards of evidence, as the mainstream historians, to counter their own arguments!

sankark
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#59 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 05 Sep 2020, 04:51 I don't think Shrikanth is the pioneer on interpreting references in Rig vEda as historical pointers. Much of mainstream history has been developed by doing the same thing! Right from Mortimer Wheeler.
Fair. Same token if all those Western Indologists were just surmising or dreaming up stuff that just were figments of their imagination or agenda then one goes down the wrong path.
shankarank wrote: 05 Sep 2020, 04:51 Just because they may have poetic, mystical allegories, does not mean real world references , geography, river names, flora, fauna, real people (tribes) are also to be discarded. If history can be deduced from purnaanooru which is also poetry, same standard can be applied here.
That is not fair. No one is claiming puRanAnURu verses are "seen" revealed eternal truths. They are outputs of "human agency" about the mundane and petty and foibles of human beings along with some lofty ideas/ideals.

shankarank
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#60 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by shankarank »

You are mixing up contexts. The claims about revealed truth are relevant in a traditional setting, a seeker in front of a Guru. And here we are only importing references to real world things like references to Rivers, geography, people etc. What is the truth history is after? It must stick to the evidence methods of that pursuit!

If river ganga can be twisted to be Akash ganga, then yamuna, parushni are all in the Akash?

Tamizh kappiyams also venerate the river kAvEri in their own way!

sankark
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#61 Re: Prof George Hart on Tamil Society in the Sangam Era

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 06 Sep 2020, 01:52 You are mixing up contexts. The claims about revealed truth are relevant in a traditional setting, a seeker in front of a Guru. And here we are only importing references to real world things like references to Rivers, geography, people etc. What is the truth history is after? It must stick to the evidence methods of that pursuit!

If river ganga can be twisted to be Akash ganga, then yamuna, parushni are all in the Akash?

Tamizh kappiyams also venerate the river kAvEri in their own way!

The view prevalently used for these textual analysis, these take an implicit humon-authored axiomatic approach and just haggles on time/geographic origins. Thus a guru sishya traditionalist holding the vEdam's as apaurushEya, anAdhi should indulge, I would aver, on that the etymological, geographical and linguistic analysis etc. as pure intellectual what-if?

The two are parallel lines that will never intersect or commingle to a unified theory then?

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