Ramayana the different versions

History, religion and culture
sudarshan
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Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 12:21

Post by sudarshan »

CML: "Thyagaraja immortalized him through his music and 'blind' bhakti!"

CML, could you please explain what 'blind' bhakti here is? This is not for any argument's sake, but it could probably "redefine" the very samrajyam of Rama Bhakti, the subjects of which were Sri Raghavendra Swami, Bhadrachalam Ramadas, Muthuswamy Dikshitar, Bhagavannama Bodhendra, Col. Lionel Price, why several hundreds and thousands that have been chanting Rama nama and reciting Srimad Ramayanam.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

sudarshan

I put 'blind' under quotes to indicate that I was not using it in any pejorative sense. By blind I meant unquestioned or rationalized. Thyagarja accepted Rama as such without investigating or reading about him (based on Guru vacana ). That is precisely the way; one is supposed to take his 'gurus' words; just implicitly. You know the ultimate goal of sayujya is to destroy 'viveka' which is responsible for all confusions. The word does not matter. Valmiki himself attained enlightenment through repeating 'mara'! What is in a name after all? It is the ultimate, unquestioning, unflinching faith that matters! You know the folklore story of a great sinner saving a drowning man from the Ganges while all the erudite Rishis were watching debating that they were not sinless to be able to save the hapless man! For Thyagaraja Rama was the supreme deity and he needed no proof!

Sorry, in this thread we are discussing 'rational' issues about 'Rama the Man'.

sudarshan
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Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 12:21

Post by sudarshan »

CML, thanks for the clarification. I've got the answer for what I asked for. I do not have anything to say about the 'rational' issues about 'Rama the man'. To tell the truth, sometimes I too have doubts about incidents in Srimad Ramayana, especially related to Uttara Kandam, but I try not to nurture them since being highly imperfect myself, who am I to debate about somebody else.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

DRS

I believe Valmiki was more interested in describing the Ramayana charaters as humans than divine. The odd references to divinity or extraterrestrials is just 'poetic exaggerations'. He could have had Rama say to vAli that he killed him because he was 'God' and was above laws like the biblical Jehovah; but he does not; he invokes manudharma which was the prevailing moral code for humans at that time. By the same code all Royalty were intrinsically divine and hereditary!

Ravana was the half brother of Kubera himself! Any question about his divine origin?

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

He could have had Rama say to vAli that he killed him because he was 'God' and was above laws like the biblical Jehovah; but he does not;
Now why should rAma declare himself as "God". God does not have the need to declare Himself. It is for others to sing praise.

rAma says several times- "AtmAnam mANuSham manyE"- "I consider myself a human being".

Apart from the above reason that he had no need to declare himself, the 2nd reason was that rAvaNa could not be killed by Gods or anyone except humans or vAnaras(This was God's own Word). Therefore, the moment rAma invoked divinity in himself, he would be unable to fulfill his divine purpose of decimating rAVaNa and his hordes.

Recall that indra leaves in a hurry from sage Sarabhanga hermitage when rAma approaches it saying the time has not come yet for him to meet rAma and that the time will only come after rAma slays rAvaNa.

You cannot call vALmIki a very down-to earth poet in one breath and in the next breath declare his verses as "poetic exaggeration". Such conclusions are for ones own convenience.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

DRS

I never said Valmiki was an ordinary ('down-to-earth') poet! In fact he was/is among the best. But my question is, was he also a Historian. There is ample evidence to believe that Rama was indeed a 'real' historical person. Once we admit that, we should discuss him on the human plane eschewing all references to divinity. Rama did not use 'magic' to achieve any of his missions. He stood up for the best of human qualities. Every human can aspire to be 'Rama the Man' ignoring the poet's 'Rama the parabrahmam'. In that context pl do not use miracles, curses, boons and magic to justify his actions. On the level we should also consider Ravana as a human. Do you honestly believe that Ravana could not be killed 'ordinarily'! Ultimately Rama kills him in combat 'just like Zarkavi' ( perhaps a misguided US poet could claim divine powers to GW ;)

We should look at Rama and his actions as much as we would any other human without bringing in the divine element!

To me Rama's blaming Kaikeyi/Dasharatha during adversity is distinctly human. It is easy to philosophize when your nose is not on fire. When the chips are down Rama does react like any other human and that is what we should appreciate! He does recover himself after the crisis and holds no ill will after rationally attributing their behaviour to 'providence'. Therein is the lesson for us! He does not try to be vengeful to Kaikeyi later on in spite of all the hardships he had to endure. In this everlasting battle between the 'Ego and the ID' the 'Super Ego' wins out which is what we should strive for as humans. That is the practical lesson from the Life of Rama which Valmiki has picturesquely captured!

srinidhi
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Post by srinidhi »

But my question is, was he also a Historian
.

Incidentally, Vamiki names his composition as "Paulastya Vadha"

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Yes indeed! And it was
'sItAyA: caritaM mahat'
Also vAlmIki is the first vaggeyakaraka since he set the whole thing into music!

Has anybody rendered part of VR in CM?
We know TNS and MS have rendered Kamban in CM which is commercial!

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Smt. MSS has rendered 'tatO yagnyE samAptEshu' describing rAmA's birth in her AIR programme on rAmanavamI (I like to think of that program as 'navami anru navamaNigaL' - because she sings 9 compostions by 9 gems of composers), and in another commercial release she has described how sItA says that she will remain true to rAma just like an illustrious line of satIs and pativratAs before her - 'dInOvA rAjyahInOvA'. I am not aware of anyone singing the whole kAvya. Everyone knows Smt. MSS's divine rendition of the nAma rAmAyaNam. TM Krishna and Sangeeta Shivakumar have rendered a couple of slOkAs from VR.
Mukesh has rendered the RCM beautifully, and his son, Nitin Mukesh has rendered another version of easy-to-undertand rAmAyaNa story - 'sun lO pAwan rAm kahAnI'....Have not heard of any renderings of adyatmarAmAyaNam.
Ravi

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

Just saw this thread and the good discussions. Of particular interest to me was the divination of ShrIrAma which the different composers hold their contentions. vAlmIki seems to be ambivalent (sometimes like rAjacaritam - story of kings) then again as he recounts in his verse on the birth of rAma "sAkshAt vishNoH caturbhAga..." I haven't gone through tulasidAsa's rAmacaritamAnas but I have read articles citing he holds rAma absolute (as did ShrI tyAgarAja and bhadrAchala rAmadAs, although the latter has composed a cUrNika associating each accounts of the rAmAyaNa to each of the 24 names of viShNu) . ShrI ezhutAcan in his malayALa "adhyAtma rAmAyaNa" holds sItA & rAma as both lakshmI and nArAyaNa Themselves.
Wonder if someone could give interpretations on this from the telugu (ranganAtha rAmAyaNa), tamizh (kamba rAmAyaNa) and the Oriya (krittibhAs) versions.

If any of you are interested, Gita Press has provided the text of the whole rAmacaritamAnasa of tulsidAs on its site: http://www.gitapress.org/Download_Eng_pdf.htm

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Couple of interesting points that I want CML/DRS/Srinidhi or anyone else for that matter to explain:

1. When vAlmIki describes the birth of the divine brothers, he states, kausalyA and sumitrA gave birth to rAma, and lakshmaNa, shatrughNa respectively (they were the 'fortunate mothers' to have borne these divine sons), but when it comes to bharat, he says: bharata was born to kaikEyI - was he giving an indication of things to come, and very subtly hinting that kaikEyI's conduct will not be as respectworthy as the other two? aruNAchala kavi in his rAmanATakam says of all of them uniformly: '......vayiTTril inrundu vandAr'
2. And doesn't he go on to say 'vishNOrardham mahA bhAgam, putram ichvAku vardhanam'? What does this mean? Is he referring to the fact that rAma represented one half of the divinity in the bowl of pAyasam?

vEmpatti chinna satyam in his 'sItA swayamvaram' ballet, describes how dasharata distributes the pAyasam in such elegant telugu: 'paTTamahishi kausalyaku sakhamu (1/2 of the whole - rAma), migilina sakhamulO sumitraku sakhamu (1/4 of the whole - lakshmaN), migilina sakhamu kaikEyi sumitraku sari sakhamu (1/8 of the whole each - bharat and shatrughNa)' - I think this pattern also describes the order of their birth as well as the how the brothers paired off in their devotions: lakshmaN was devoted to rAma, and shatrughNa to bharat...
Ravi

kmrasika
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Post by kmrasika »

W/ rgd to the appropriation of the pAyasa obtained as the fruit from the putrakAmEShTi yAga, I believe the whole portion was distributed half exactly between kausalyA and kaikEyI, and subsequently to make equal, they gave their halves to sumitrA (hence sumitra benefitted from two different portions). Obviously, kausalyA's fortune was to beget Lord vishNu as her own son, hence vAlmIki's contention in the avatAra gaTTam. I would think the rest of rAma's brothers were actually AdiShEsha Who accompanied him in these special incarnations to protect lakshmi.

I remember reading some commentaries on the rAmAyaNa in back issues of Ananda vikaTan and remember vaguely citing mantarai (the guni) being Goddess sarasvati Herself kickstrating the whole epic thus instigating the great epic. Also, guha was supposedly Lord subrahmaNya (being nephew of viShNu) rendering assistance. I can't remember the the rest but on a whole the events in the story were already foretold and portended that they took place in exact sequence as well.

srinidhi
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Post by srinidhi »

Ravi,

This is indeed interesting, since Tulsi and Valmiki are directly at variance here.

This is what Valmiki has to say

One half of the payasam was given to Kausalya.
One half of the remaining half (i.e one fourth ) was given to Sumitra.
The remaining quarter was further divided equally and one portion (i.e one eighth of the original) was given to Kaikeyi and the remaining one eighth was again given to Sumitra.

It is commonly believed that
Sri Rama was the Human represenation of the form of Vishnu
Lakshmana was the Human representation of Adishesha (one quarter)
Bharata and Shatrughna were the Representaions of the Shankha and Chakra.

But Valmiki contradicts himself in two places-

In the scene describing the birth of the four brothers, he describes Bharata as representing one quarter of the form of Vishnu (saakshaad vishnoschaturbhaga)

Towards the very end of Ramayana, in the 106 sarga of Uttara Khanda, describing the departure of Lakshmana to the heavens, Valmiki writes thus
tato vishnoschaturbhagamagatam sursattama..... claimng that Lakshmana was the fourth part of Vishnu.

Tulsidas , in a bid to better explain the pairing (Rama-Laksmana; Bharata-Shatrughna) and describes the distribution thus

One half was given to Kausalya,
One quarter given to Kaikeyi
The remaining quarter was further divided into two halves -given to Kaikeyi and Kauslaya- who in turn fed them to Sumitra. This version better explains the order of the Births. First Rama- (Punarvasu Nakshatra), then Bharata-(Pushya) lakshmana and Shatrughna .(Ashlesha)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks Srinidhi

Here is something but I cannot lay my hands on it! The payasa paatram was taken by a crow and was dropped off at the mountain site where anjana found it and licked it and so was born Hanuman!

kiransurya
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Post by kiransurya »

Here is something but I cannot lay my hands on it! The payasa paatram was taken by a crow and was dropped off at the mountain site where anjana found it and licked it and so was born Hanuman!
I heard that Hanuma was Siva`s incarnation handed over to Anjana by Vayu. How true is it?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

That is the popular saying. Since all Gods wanted to help Narayana in his endeavour Siva decided to incarnate in anjanEya. But the viShnu connection is also there (perhaps the vaiShNava wanted to avoid the shaiva contamination ;) )

mohan
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Post by mohan »

cmlover wrote:Let me start off with a superb navarasa shloka from ramakarnamrita superbly rendered by MDR.

The lyric is
SringAram kShitinandInI viharaNE
vIram dhanur bhanjanE ...

Could someone please post the mp3 file of this sloka again. MDR or any other versions are welcome!

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Mohan,
Here are 2 versions: By SSI, and a more detailed one by MDR. The second file is in the AAC format.
Ravi

http://rapidshare.com/files/17058511/Sr ... andinI.zip

mohan
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Post by mohan »

Thanks Ravi.
I am trying to choose ragas for the navarasas. MDR has sung the sloka in just a few ragas (Khamas, Saveri, Sahana, Kapi).

One version I have heard use:

Shringaram - Love (kalyani)
Veera - Courage (atana)
Karunya - Compassion (sahana)
Hasya - Mirth (amritavarshini)
Adhbuta - Wonder (hamsanandi)
Bhayanaka - Fear (subhapantuvarali)
Bheebatsa - Disgust (begada)
Roudra - Anger (mohanam)
Shantam - peace (sindhubhairavi)

I don't think some of these ragas suit that well. Any other suggestions?

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Mohan,
Lord knows I am no expert, but in my layman's experience, SubhapantuvarALI evokes pathos and not fear in me. How about SivaSakti for fear? mOhanam would better suit love/SringAra in my opinion...has never evoked sentiments of roudram AFAIK (In fact, I have heard it called the jaganmOhanakara rAga or sammOhanakara rAga),... for peace/SAntam, maybe tilang (like Sethumadhava Rao's SAnti nilava vEnDum). aThANA and SahAnA sound appropriate...

Maybe DRS can help you better!

ksrimech
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Post by ksrimech »

I would choose the following ragas. I have also given an example where a vAggEyakArar has used it in that context.

SringAram - kApi (parullannamATa-subburAyar)
vIram - atANA (yEla ni daya-tyAgarAjar)
kAruNyam - sahAnA (vandanamu-tyAgarAjar)
hAsyam - kuntaLavarALi (kaNDavarkku kanavilum-svarnAvEnkatESa dikSitar)
Adhbuta - bilahari (dorakuna iTuvamTi-tyAgarAjar)
bhayanakam - ??????
bhIbatsam - dhEnukA (tEliya lEru-tyAgarAjar)
roudram - rudrapriyA (rudrakOpajAta-muttusvAmi dikSitar)
SAntam - sAmA (SantamulEkA-tyAgarAjar)

IMHO, I dont think any raga can invoke fear in us. :)

Incidently, I did a google search on navarasas and landed on this.

http://www.lokvani.com/lokvani/article. ... le_id=1710
Amongst the eight Rasas, four Rasas happen to be the sources of the other four Rasas:

Shringara comes from Hasya, from Raudra comes the Karuna, from the Vira comes the Adhbuta and from the the Bibhatsa comes the Bhayanaka. The culminating experience of all Rasas is supposed to be the ninth Rasa Shanthi Rasa.
Last edited by ksrimech on 19 Feb 2007, 06:50, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

In my view the following feels appropriate:

Shringaram - Love (kalyani)
Veera - Courage (atana)
Karunya - Compassion (sankarabharaNam
Hasya - Mirth (Khamas)
Adhbuta - Wonder (shivaranjani
Bhayanaka - Fear (revati)
Bheebatsa - Disgust (begada)
Roudra - Anger (Kedaragowlai)
Shantam - peace (madhyamavati/suruTTi)

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Mohan,
I am eagerly looking forward to what you finally do with this! Please explain why you chose the rAgas that you end up using!

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

ksrimech wrote:Adhbuta - bilahari (dorakuna iTuvamTi-tyAgarAjar)
bilahari is good for adbhuta. mukhAri is another suitable candidate for adbhuta (wonder) - remember enta ninnE varNintu; I have used this in kAvyavAcana in places where this mood was needed, and IMO, it comes out very well.

For shAnta (in addition to sAma) I would vote for vAgadhIswari too - again from kAvyavAcana experience.

-Ramakriya

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

Thanks for all the suggestions. I liked the idea of kapi for shringaram. Has "kama"vardhani got anything to do with this rasa? Bilahari also is a good choice for adbhuta and revati for bhayanaka. What all the varying choices illustrate is that depending on the phrases used in a raga, you can get different emotions.

Ravi - it was to be used for a Rama navami dance program. I was going to ornament the Navarasa slokam with swarams/jathis between each verse/rasa. It is not finalised and may be replaced by Neela Ramaurthy's maasil ayodhiyil instead (see the sahitayam thread).

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Try malahari for fear...

mohan
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Post by mohan »

I think it is the presence of the Suddha Rishabham that gives the notion of fear (as in Revati and Malahari). Interesting to note that in the movie Jaws, the notes used for when the shark appears are Sa Ri - Sa Ri ...with the Suddha Rishabham being used.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Yes Mohan, I too feel the same. Infact the malahari being scary came from a kid who knows no CM.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

actually you add G1 to it, it can get scarier (i.e. s r g r s r g r s r g r).

Between malahari and revati, to me revati is more apt.

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

how about this scale - i scared myself silly playing it on the online keyboard ;)

(there is a shivaranjani component - and so perhaps pathos, the P-D1-N1 is sort of like S R1 G1 and can negate it with fear)

S R2 G2 P D1 N1 S'

S' N1 D1 P G2, R2 S

I dont know if there is a raga based off it.

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

A piece in the sound track of the movie "Eyes wide shut" is pretty scary -Musica Ricercata
The swaras go M1 M2 on the key board

It also has a verse from gIta in the sound track.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 22 Feb 2007, 08:27, edited 1 time in total.

ksrimech
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Post by ksrimech »

mohanji,
kAmavardhini is supposed to augment the kAma rasA. I'm not able get any kriti other than candana carchita of jayadEvar (tuned by SSI) in my mind with kAma/SringAra rasA.

Can somebody add some other kritis for a particular situation - kAmavardhini and SringAra rasA?

SringArarasamanjarIm (rasamanjari-rasikapriyA) is also a composition in which dIkSitar calls ambAL as one who is full of SringAra rasa (somebody please correct me if I've understood it wrong). Can rasikapriyA be taken into consideration?

I'm going purely by text book , i.e. how the trinity's chose a rAga for portraying a situation based on a rasA. If we do research, we will surely get more out the 1200 odd kritis of the trinity.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Mohan
checkout VK Raman at
http://www.geetham.net/forums/showthrea ... post333950

Also do post your svarajati (with audio/video) here for us all to enjoy when you are done!

mohan
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Post by mohan »

Is there an English translation of Kamba rAmAyanam available online? If that is not available, what about a complete version in Tamil?

I have checked http://www.tamilnation.org/literature/k ... ayanam.htm and other places but haven't been successful yet.

Also, am looking for Arunachala Kavi's rAmanAtakam online.
Last edited by mohan on 08 Mar 2007, 08:54, edited 1 time in total.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

Kambaramayanam is available online. You have to pay me to get access (just kidding!)
Go to www.chennainetwork.com and then click chennailibrary. Many Thamizh literature items are available online. Look for kambaramayanam in the left navigation bar.

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

Thanks mahakavi. Your cheque is in the (e)mail :)

Now only looking for the rAmanAtakam!
Last edited by mohan on 09 Mar 2007, 07:13, edited 1 time in total.

menka.singhvi
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Re: Ramayana the different versions

Post by menka.singhvi »

The Sholka described here is about Shri Rama & 9 rasa in one Sholka.
I am searching for individual shlokas for each Rasa.. as in 9 shlokas for 9 Rasa... Can anyone help me with this please?

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