Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
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vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I found this link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_m ... name_rania

"RANIA means as Indian name"queen" or "singing Queen"
but in Arabic it means "contented or satisfied by what she has"
in Greek it's a part of "Ourania" which means heaven
it also means "Royal" "

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

...also interestingly notice the masculanisation of 'rANI' into 'rANa' (according to sanskrit reverse grammatical rules) to indicate 'ruler' found among Rajputs!

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Yes CML, rANI to rANA is a case of reverse masculization.

But Arabic rani is not related at all to either tamil or sanskrit rani in any way. Tamil has borrowed rANI from prakrit (like lots and lots of other sanskrit & prakrit words found in old tamil such as ilakkaNam, ilakkiyam, mA, to mention a few) and prakrit rANI in turn is nothing but a simplified form of sanskrit rAj~ni.

Indic rAj~ni has cognates all over the Indo-European family, it has structural affinities with IE. We cant randomly speculate based on similar sounding words.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

It must be 'masculinize' :)
check
http://www.answers.com/topic/masculinize

If rANI is in prakrit then how come it did not pass into classical sanskrit ?
My reasoning is that it cannot be derived from any of the existing dhAtus as per pANini.
rAjan is derived from 'ra~nj rAgE' (to please) but 'raN shabdE' (to sound) does not yield 'rANan' with a relevant meaning. You are permitted to coin such a word using the 'kanin' pratyayam but that would mean something related to sounding. For example the dictionary sports the word 'rANikA' (which means a bridle) derived from this dhAtu. Hence my supposition is that 'rANI' was imported into prakrit subsequently and could not be admitted into classical sanskrit!

srkris
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Post by srkris »

I don't know what you are talking about. Is there a rule that a Prakrit form of an Indic word should pass into Sanskrit?

rANI is not the sanskrit form. It is a prakritization of sanskrit rAj~ni and entered into tamil from prakrit.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

You claim
rAj~ni (sanskrit)-->rANI(prakrit)-->rANI(Tamil/dravidian))-->rani(ranee)(OED) etc.,
case closed :)

srkris
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Post by srkris »

The sanskrit form is rAj~nI
The prakrit form is rAnI
The dravidian form is rANI

I dont know what you mean by OED.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Oxford English Dictionary!
(It gives the etymolgy as from Sanskrit(rAj~nI fem of rajan king)-->Hindi(rAnI)-->English(rani/ranee))

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

1) btw, how do you say the 'j~' part of rAj~nI ?

2) Can Hindi be considered a prakrit form of Sanskrit? Or only marAthi, gujarAthi and bengAli will qualify.

3) I am still trying to understand what Suresh said which brought up this rANi discussion.

Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK? Or there are some other rules?

srkris
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Post by srkris »

The English word rAni is just the same as the prakrit rAni (and I would presume is borrowed from that source).

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

vasanthakokilam wrote: Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK?
My expectation is that the singer can both tell and convey the difference and use the one that is appropriate.

I don't think it is strictly Sanskrit vs. Tamil compositions. For example, the tamil Sivan kriti "Devi Neeye Thunai" in Keeravani uses raj~ni, I think. Don't mean to throw a spanner in the "Language" works here :)
Last edited by sureshvv on 06 Jan 2010, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

>raj~ni

I asked before, I am still not sure. How do you say the above?

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.

If so its more common representation in English transliteraruin is jn or gn or jny/gny. (gnAni, vignAnam).

In Marathi, they use the combination dny for the same sound I think (dnyAn = jnyAn / gnAn / gnyAn / gyAn).

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

Several people pronounce it as 'gya' insterad of 'jna'. e.g. Vigyaan bhavan for Vijnaan bhavan

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

"O Ranga sayee" instead of "O Ranga shayee" is another commonly heard screw up.

Kudos to Sriram Parthasarathy for doing a neraval at "Shukha Shounakhaadhi" and getting it right consistently. May be singing for the movies has him more careful about lyrics... Not!
Last edited by sureshvv on 25 Jan 2010, 11:15, edited 1 time in total.

Music
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Post by Music »

In Telugu, we have 3 kinds of 'sa' sounds and I thought it is similar in Sanskrit. Here is my understanding of the three kinds of 'sa' sounds.

1. 'sa' as in the first syllable in the word 'sanskrit'. When you pronounce this 'sa', you direct a stream of air very close to the teeth in the front of your mouth.

2. 'sha' as in the second syllable of the word 'vishnu'. You pronounce this 'sh' sound by directing the stream of air to the middle of your mouth.

3. 'sha' as in the first syllables of the words 'shuka', 'shounaka', 'shiva', 'shankara'. This is the most commonly confused one. For pronouncing this, you would direct the air stream neither like 1. above nor like 2. above. You would direct the air stream somewhere in between 1. and 2., so it effectively neither sounds like 'sa' as in 'sanskrit' nor like 'sha' as in 'vishnu'. It definitely sounds different from 1. and 2.

Can any pronunciation experts in Sanskrit confirm/correct the above please?
Last edited by Music on 26 Jan 2010, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Music, I am not an expert, but what you said is very right.

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

So are the pronouciations in Malayalam

srkris
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Post by srkris »

I found another instance of (what I believe to be) a major mispronunciation of a major song by a major artist.

http://www.charsur.com/charsur/index.ph ... ts_id=2964

She says "bakkala" again and again!!!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Really? I hear a 'pa' and not a 'ba'.. May be she can be a bit more plosive on that 'pa' but hers is close to 'pa' than 'ba'. Let us see how others hear it.

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

The very 1st time seems fine. Dangerously close the 2nd and 3rd time.Compare with the "pa" in nilapadi.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Oops, sorry she is perfect the first time. I heard with headphones this time, laptop speakers last time. I should be more careful though.

However I think she says nilapaTi and volicE instead of nilabaDi and golicE

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

There are four variations with 'pa/ba' and 'Ti/Di' and you say nilabaDi is correct. I hear the other three variations. :) Sorry Gayathri for the micro analysis. srkris started it :lol:

With laptop speakers.

nilabaTi - first time

nilapaTi - second time

nilapaDi - third time

-----------
And voliche or oliche

S.Govindaswamy
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Post by S.Govindaswamy »

>sridhar_rang wrote :
I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.<


I am giving the first lines of two songs of tyAgarAja where this diphthong occurs in the beginning and middle of words. I would like to know the correct pronunciations.
1 j~nAnamosaga rAda
जà¥ÂÂ

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

Govindaswamy, based on my exposure to Sanskrit and Malayalam (in addition to Tamil) I can tell you that the 'correct' pronunciation does have the 'ja' sound before the '~na' sound. The use of 'ga' sound seems to be a Tamil speciality!
I assume both Kannada and Telugu also use the 'j~na' sound, knowing they are based on Sanskrit.

sureshvv
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv »

"Sukha paNi" is the latest one I was stung with.

arunk
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk »

A curiosity question: In Sanskrit, the sha (as in bAsha) much rarer at the start of a word compared to Sa (as in Siva)? The few words I could think off all have Sa at the beginning but my Sanskrit knowledge is pretty much non-existent :)

Arun

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

You are right!
There are approximately 16 times more words starting with sh (e.g. shiva) than words starting with S (e.g. Sanmukha).

rshankar
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar »

I edited my original post after reading Suresh's posts in the GV review thread. While the S (as in Siva) and the sh (as in shaNmukha) sounds are problematic, I have even more issues with the mispronunciation of Sukha (a word without a meaning) versus Suka (which means a parrot)....

vgovindan
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by vgovindan »

The 'mh', 'hm', 'hn', 'hN' combinations create more confusion. For example 'siMha' is pronounced in Maharashtra as 'sihma'. (You may refer to Devi Mahatmyam rendered by Anuradha Paudwal - all such 'mh' combinations are pronounced as 'hm'.)
How do you pronounce 'vahni' - is it 'vanhi' or 'vahni'?
Is it 'cinha' or 'cihna' (in Hindi, it is pronounced as 'cinha')
Is it 'brAhmaNa' or 'brAmhaNa'?
Is it 'ghRhNa' or 'ghRNha'?

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

It is 'makA gaNapati' - not 'mahA gaNapati' for a number of singers.

rshankar
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:It is 'makA gaNapati' - not 'mahA gaNapati' for a number of singers.
LOL! Only for the ones who use the tamizh script exclusively....

ksrimech
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech »

Some of the pronunciations I have heard!
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
Last edited by ksrimech on 22 Dec 2010, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv »

ksrimech wrote:Some the pronunciations I have heard!
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
Can you point out the error :$ ? Is "smaranAya" preferred to "smaraneya"?
sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!

srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
Do you mean "prabhu" vs "prebhu" and "guruvaram" vs "guruveram" here ?

I have found Telugu speaking people frequently doing this and relegate this particular problem to an accent issue rather than a mispronunciation. For eg., the tamil word "solli" is variously pronounced as "cholli" or "sholli" and can be seen as a dialect rather than a mispronunciation. IMO, this even adds a certain charm to the delivery.
paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
Yeah... Sa, S'a, Sha and Cha also gets into the fray for musicians learning from undecorated tamil script.

arunk
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk »

sureshvv wrote: Can you point out the error :$ ? Is "smaranAya" preferred to "smaraneya"?
It should be Na as opposed to na.
Do you mean "prabhu" vs "prebhu" and "guruvaram" vs "guruveram" here ?
Besides those, sri for SrI - yes I have also observed these among telugiites - the sa for Sa, and "e" for "a" in places. I do not know if it is specific to certain areas of Andhra.

IMO, many of these "mispronunciations", are indeed a characteristic of an accent - i.e. the overbearing effect of one's own dialect (from one's own region) - even in cases where people are aware of the differences and have trained for. Of course in many cases it is also out of ignorance and/or not as much diligence as is required (e.g. in tamil nadu with people who are not sufficiently exposed to phonetics of other languages and their scripts, or have not considered the phonetic differences carefully enough).

Arun

rshankar
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar »

ksrimech wrote:ArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA!
nArAyaNA ninna nAmada smaraNeya
ksrimech wrote:sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
Sankara SrI giri nAtha prabhU kE nritta virAjit citt sabhA mE
The use of 'e' instead of 'a' is also something that I've noticed in native maLayALam speakers ...remA instead of ramA etc...
This whole concept of accent coloring the way the people pronounce when they sing must be unique to the Indian languages...regardless of their country of origin, all country music singers for instance sound the same to me for the most part - Keith Urban (from Australia), the Dixie Chicks (from the US) or Shania Twain (from Canada) don't sound very different when they sing, but have unique speaking accents....

arunk
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk »

ravi - There most certainly are differences in rock and popular music.

Many country singers have a strong southern twang (imagine one of them singing "She'll never.... ever...." ;-).

Many blues singers have strong accents - southern + african-american.

British singers (e.g. Pink Floyd) would say "woter" (approx) to some american singers' "wawder" .

But many american rock singers do try to imitate the British accent - because of the impact of British bands in american rock culture and history.

Also, as country goes main stream, it is possible that many of them consciously go for the neutral accent (e.g. newsreader) - not sure.

Arun

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

It is shri, not sri/Sri.

arunk
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk »

but it depends on what your "S" vs. 'sh' is - (unfortunately) different transliteration schemes use the exact opposite meanings for those two!

Arun

vgovindan
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by vgovindan »

When a language has a sound natural to it, it makes little meaning in not using it. For example, English pronunciation of 'sh' is equivalent to 'ष' (bush, rush, shine etc.). Therefore, the method of transliterating 'ष' would be 'sh' and not 'S'.
As a corollary, 'S' would stand for 'श' and 's' for 'स'
This is the method adopted by me for transliterating Tyagaraja and MD Kritis.

ksrimech
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech »

One my favorite male vocalist (and probably the best) sings tiruvaLLikENi uRai instead of tiruvallikENi uRai in the pallavi line of pArthasArati un pAdam paNindEn (kAmbhOji - ambujam kRSNa). :)
Last edited by ksrimech on 24 Dec 2010, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv »

The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI.

I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!

ragam-talam
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ragam-talam »

Pronunciation of Malayalam kritis by non-Malayalis (esp by Tamilians) is almost always atrocious.
But it gets ignored because most listeners don't know any better either!

ksrimech
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech »

sureshvv wrote:The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI.

I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!
sureshvv, that shows you neither now vaLLi or alli. vaLLi (puLinda kanya and wife of guruguhan) and alli (water lily) are of course different. The divyadEsam, tiruvallikENI cannot become tiruvaLLikENi! tirumangaiyAzhvAr sing tiruvallikENi kaNDEnE and not tiruvaLLikENi kaNDEne! AzhvAr also praise the alli flower being dear to mahAlakSmi tAyAr. tiruvallikENi (tiru + alli + kENi) means the auspicious pond of water lilies, while tiruvaLLikENI (tiru+ vaLLi + kENi) would mean pond of sweet tubers (a.k.a. sweet potato). I hope it makes sense to you.

sureshvv
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote:The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI. I don't consider this wrong.
ksrimech wrote: sureshvv, that shows you neither now vaLLi or alli.
vaLLi (puLinda kanya and wife of guruguhan) and alli (water lily) are of course different.
<snip>
I hope it makes sense to you.
Thank you for your explanation of tiruvallikeNi. But what has vaLLI got to do with it? As you admit, they are different.

Sanskrit lacks the hard L in vaLLi so the name becomes srivalli when written in Sanskrit . But some people consider pronouncing the hard L wrong while singing this kriti while I feel that it is justified since that is after all her name.

Hope I am being clear.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

As mentioned by ksrimech, vaLLi is the name of Lord Muruga's consort, and alli is water lily.

In Tamil, when you write Tiru + alli, it become Tiruvalli. Hence the confusion.

For transliterating Tamil 'L' into Sanskrit, this letter is used:-
Image

When Tamil names are written in Hindi, the l/L creates confusion. In the postage stamp issued on 3.12.2010, the name of Nadaswaram Vidhvan Sri Rajarathinam piLLai is written in Hindi as pillai. Similarly in the stamp of 31.12.08, the name of vaLLiammai is written in Hindi as vallIyammai.

sureshvv
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv »

Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...

rshankar
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar »

sureshvv wrote:Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
Suresh, I think the point being made is that pronouncing vaLLi as valli is as wrong as doing the opposite with tiru-alli-kENi - pronouncing it as tiru-aLLi-kENi....

sureshvv
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote:Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
rshankar wrote: Suresh, I think the point being made is that pronouncing vaLLi as valli is as wrong as doing the opposite with tiru-alli-kENi - pronouncing it as tiru-aLLi-kENi....
Great! Thanks for clarifying. So we have consensus that it should be sung as "Sri vaLLI devesenapathe"? Can't believe it since I've been fighting this battle for years ;-)

ksrimech
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech »

Thanks Ravi. Cant put better than that. I always tend to complicate things. :grin:

sureshvv, I think the confusing arose because I thought you were thinking valli in tiruvallikENi I mentioned in post #66 is the vaLLi in SrIvaLLidEvasEnApatE. I think we were talking about two different situations. Apologies.

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