Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
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Yes CML, rANI to rANA is a case of reverse masculization.
But Arabic rani is not related at all to either tamil or sanskrit rani in any way. Tamil has borrowed rANI from prakrit (like lots and lots of other sanskrit & prakrit words found in old tamil such as ilakkaNam, ilakkiyam, mA, to mention a few) and prakrit rANI in turn is nothing but a simplified form of sanskrit rAj~ni.
Indic rAj~ni has cognates all over the Indo-European family, it has structural affinities with IE. We cant randomly speculate based on similar sounding words.
But Arabic rani is not related at all to either tamil or sanskrit rani in any way. Tamil has borrowed rANI from prakrit (like lots and lots of other sanskrit & prakrit words found in old tamil such as ilakkaNam, ilakkiyam, mA, to mention a few) and prakrit rANI in turn is nothing but a simplified form of sanskrit rAj~ni.
Indic rAj~ni has cognates all over the Indo-European family, it has structural affinities with IE. We cant randomly speculate based on similar sounding words.
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It must be 'masculinize'
check
http://www.answers.com/topic/masculinize
If rANI is in prakrit then how come it did not pass into classical sanskrit ?
My reasoning is that it cannot be derived from any of the existing dhAtus as per pANini.
rAjan is derived from 'ra~nj rAgE' (to please) but 'raN shabdE' (to sound) does not yield 'rANan' with a relevant meaning. You are permitted to coin such a word using the 'kanin' pratyayam but that would mean something related to sounding. For example the dictionary sports the word 'rANikA' (which means a bridle) derived from this dhAtu. Hence my supposition is that 'rANI' was imported into prakrit subsequently and could not be admitted into classical sanskrit!
check
http://www.answers.com/topic/masculinize
If rANI is in prakrit then how come it did not pass into classical sanskrit ?
My reasoning is that it cannot be derived from any of the existing dhAtus as per pANini.
rAjan is derived from 'ra~nj rAgE' (to please) but 'raN shabdE' (to sound) does not yield 'rANan' with a relevant meaning. You are permitted to coin such a word using the 'kanin' pratyayam but that would mean something related to sounding. For example the dictionary sports the word 'rANikA' (which means a bridle) derived from this dhAtu. Hence my supposition is that 'rANI' was imported into prakrit subsequently and could not be admitted into classical sanskrit!
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1) btw, how do you say the 'j~' part of rAj~nI ?
2) Can Hindi be considered a prakrit form of Sanskrit? Or only marAthi, gujarAthi and bengAli will qualify.
3) I am still trying to understand what Suresh said which brought up this rANi discussion.
Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK? Or there are some other rules?
2) Can Hindi be considered a prakrit form of Sanskrit? Or only marAthi, gujarAthi and bengAli will qualify.
3) I am still trying to understand what Suresh said which brought up this rANi discussion.
Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK? Or there are some other rules?
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My expectation is that the singer can both tell and convey the difference and use the one that is appropriate.vasanthakokilam wrote: Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK?
I don't think it is strictly Sanskrit vs. Tamil compositions. For example, the tamil Sivan kriti "Devi Neeye Thunai" in Keeravani uses raj~ni, I think. Don't mean to throw a spanner in the "Language" works here
Last edited by sureshvv on 06 Jan 2010, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
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I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.
If so its more common representation in English transliteraruin is jn or gn or jny/gny. (gnAni, vignAnam).
In Marathi, they use the combination dny for the same sound I think (dnyAn = jnyAn / gnAn / gnyAn / gyAn).
If so its more common representation in English transliteraruin is jn or gn or jny/gny. (gnAni, vignAnam).
In Marathi, they use the combination dny for the same sound I think (dnyAn = jnyAn / gnAn / gnyAn / gyAn).
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"O Ranga sayee" instead of "O Ranga shayee" is another commonly heard screw up.
Kudos to Sriram Parthasarathy for doing a neraval at "Shukha Shounakhaadhi" and getting it right consistently. May be singing for the movies has him more careful about lyrics... Not!
Kudos to Sriram Parthasarathy for doing a neraval at "Shukha Shounakhaadhi" and getting it right consistently. May be singing for the movies has him more careful about lyrics... Not!
Last edited by sureshvv on 25 Jan 2010, 11:15, edited 1 time in total.
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In Telugu, we have 3 kinds of 'sa' sounds and I thought it is similar in Sanskrit. Here is my understanding of the three kinds of 'sa' sounds.
1. 'sa' as in the first syllable in the word 'sanskrit'. When you pronounce this 'sa', you direct a stream of air very close to the teeth in the front of your mouth.
2. 'sha' as in the second syllable of the word 'vishnu'. You pronounce this 'sh' sound by directing the stream of air to the middle of your mouth.
3. 'sha' as in the first syllables of the words 'shuka', 'shounaka', 'shiva', 'shankara'. This is the most commonly confused one. For pronouncing this, you would direct the air stream neither like 1. above nor like 2. above. You would direct the air stream somewhere in between 1. and 2., so it effectively neither sounds like 'sa' as in 'sanskrit' nor like 'sha' as in 'vishnu'. It definitely sounds different from 1. and 2.
Can any pronunciation experts in Sanskrit confirm/correct the above please?
1. 'sa' as in the first syllable in the word 'sanskrit'. When you pronounce this 'sa', you direct a stream of air very close to the teeth in the front of your mouth.
2. 'sha' as in the second syllable of the word 'vishnu'. You pronounce this 'sh' sound by directing the stream of air to the middle of your mouth.
3. 'sha' as in the first syllables of the words 'shuka', 'shounaka', 'shiva', 'shankara'. This is the most commonly confused one. For pronouncing this, you would direct the air stream neither like 1. above nor like 2. above. You would direct the air stream somewhere in between 1. and 2., so it effectively neither sounds like 'sa' as in 'sanskrit' nor like 'sha' as in 'vishnu'. It definitely sounds different from 1. and 2.
Can any pronunciation experts in Sanskrit confirm/correct the above please?
Last edited by Music on 26 Jan 2010, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.
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I found another instance of (what I believe to be) a major mispronunciation of a major song by a major artist.
http://www.charsur.com/charsur/index.ph ... ts_id=2964
She says "bakkala" again and again!!!
http://www.charsur.com/charsur/index.ph ... ts_id=2964
She says "bakkala" again and again!!!
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>sridhar_rang wrote :
I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.<
I am giving the first lines of two songs of tyAgarAja where this diphthong occurs in the beginning and middle of words. I would like to know the correct pronunciations.
1 j~nAnamosaga rAda
जà¥ÂÂ
I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.<
I am giving the first lines of two songs of tyAgarAja where this diphthong occurs in the beginning and middle of words. I would like to know the correct pronunciations.
1 j~nAnamosaga rAda
जà¥ÂÂ
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Govindaswamy, based on my exposure to Sanskrit and Malayalam (in addition to Tamil) I can tell you that the 'correct' pronunciation does have the 'ja' sound before the '~na' sound. The use of 'ga' sound seems to be a Tamil speciality!
I assume both Kannada and Telugu also use the 'j~na' sound, knowing they are based on Sanskrit.
I assume both Kannada and Telugu also use the 'j~na' sound, knowing they are based on Sanskrit.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
"Sukha paNi" is the latest one I was stung with.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
A curiosity question: In Sanskrit, the sha (as in bAsha) much rarer at the start of a word compared to Sa (as in Siva)? The few words I could think off all have Sa at the beginning but my Sanskrit knowledge is pretty much non-existent
Arun
Arun
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
You are right!
There are approximately 16 times more words starting with sh (e.g. shiva) than words starting with S (e.g. Sanmukha).
There are approximately 16 times more words starting with sh (e.g. shiva) than words starting with S (e.g. Sanmukha).
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
I edited my original post after reading Suresh's posts in the GV review thread. While the S (as in Siva) and the sh (as in shaNmukha) sounds are problematic, I have even more issues with the mispronunciation of Sukha (a word without a meaning) versus Suka (which means a parrot)....
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
The 'mh', 'hm', 'hn', 'hN' combinations create more confusion. For example 'siMha' is pronounced in Maharashtra as 'sihma'. (You may refer to Devi Mahatmyam rendered by Anuradha Paudwal - all such 'mh' combinations are pronounced as 'hm'.)
How do you pronounce 'vahni' - is it 'vanhi' or 'vahni'?
Is it 'cinha' or 'cihna' (in Hindi, it is pronounced as 'cinha')
Is it 'brAhmaNa' or 'brAmhaNa'?
Is it 'ghRhNa' or 'ghRNha'?
How do you pronounce 'vahni' - is it 'vanhi' or 'vahni'?
Is it 'cinha' or 'cihna' (in Hindi, it is pronounced as 'cinha')
Is it 'brAhmaNa' or 'brAmhaNa'?
Is it 'ghRhNa' or 'ghRNha'?
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
It is 'makA gaNapati' - not 'mahA gaNapati' for a number of singers.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
LOL! Only for the ones who use the tamizh script exclusively....Pratyaksham Bala wrote:It is 'makA gaNapati' - not 'mahA gaNapati' for a number of singers.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
Some of the pronunciations I have heard!
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
Last edited by ksrimech on 22 Dec 2010, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
Can you point out the error :$ ? Is "smaranAya" preferred to "smaraneya"?ksrimech wrote:Some the pronunciations I have heard!
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
Do you mean "prabhu" vs "prebhu" and "guruvaram" vs "guruveram" here ?sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
I have found Telugu speaking people frequently doing this and relegate this particular problem to an accent issue rather than a mispronunciation. For eg., the tamil word "solli" is variously pronounced as "cholli" or "sholli" and can be seen as a dialect rather than a mispronunciation. IMO, this even adds a certain charm to the delivery.
Yeah... Sa, S'a, Sha and Cha also gets into the fray for musicians learning from undecorated tamil script.paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
It should be Na as opposed to na.sureshvv wrote: Can you point out the error :$ ? Is "smaranAya" preferred to "smaraneya"?
Besides those, sri for SrI - yes I have also observed these among telugiites - the sa for Sa, and "e" for "a" in places. I do not know if it is specific to certain areas of Andhra.Do you mean "prabhu" vs "prebhu" and "guruvaram" vs "guruveram" here ?
IMO, many of these "mispronunciations", are indeed a characteristic of an accent - i.e. the overbearing effect of one's own dialect (from one's own region) - even in cases where people are aware of the differences and have trained for. Of course in many cases it is also out of ignorance and/or not as much diligence as is required (e.g. in tamil nadu with people who are not sufficiently exposed to phonetics of other languages and their scripts, or have not considered the phonetic differences carefully enough).
Arun
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
nArAyaNA ninna nAmada smaraNeyaksrimech wrote:ArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA!
Sankara SrI giri nAtha prabhU kE nritta virAjit citt sabhA mEksrimech wrote:sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
The use of 'e' instead of 'a' is also something that I've noticed in native maLayALam speakers ...remA instead of ramA etc...
This whole concept of accent coloring the way the people pronounce when they sing must be unique to the Indian languages...regardless of their country of origin, all country music singers for instance sound the same to me for the most part - Keith Urban (from Australia), the Dixie Chicks (from the US) or Shania Twain (from Canada) don't sound very different when they sing, but have unique speaking accents....
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
ravi - There most certainly are differences in rock and popular music.
Many country singers have a strong southern twang (imagine one of them singing "She'll never.... ever...." .
Many blues singers have strong accents - southern + african-american.
British singers (e.g. Pink Floyd) would say "woter" (approx) to some american singers' "wawder" .
But many american rock singers do try to imitate the British accent - because of the impact of British bands in american rock culture and history.
Also, as country goes main stream, it is possible that many of them consciously go for the neutral accent (e.g. newsreader) - not sure.
Arun
Many country singers have a strong southern twang (imagine one of them singing "She'll never.... ever...." .
Many blues singers have strong accents - southern + african-american.
British singers (e.g. Pink Floyd) would say "woter" (approx) to some american singers' "wawder" .
But many american rock singers do try to imitate the British accent - because of the impact of British bands in american rock culture and history.
Also, as country goes main stream, it is possible that many of them consciously go for the neutral accent (e.g. newsreader) - not sure.
Arun
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
It is shri, not sri/Sri.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
but it depends on what your "S" vs. 'sh' is - (unfortunately) different transliteration schemes use the exact opposite meanings for those two!
Arun
Arun
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
When a language has a sound natural to it, it makes little meaning in not using it. For example, English pronunciation of 'sh' is equivalent to 'ष' (bush, rush, shine etc.). Therefore, the method of transliterating 'ष' would be 'sh' and not 'S'.
As a corollary, 'S' would stand for 'श' and 's' for 'स'
This is the method adopted by me for transliterating Tyagaraja and MD Kritis.
As a corollary, 'S' would stand for 'श' and 's' for 'स'
This is the method adopted by me for transliterating Tyagaraja and MD Kritis.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
One my favorite male vocalist (and probably the best) sings tiruvaLLikENi uRai instead of tiruvallikENi uRai in the pallavi line of pArthasArati un pAdam paNindEn (kAmbhOji - ambujam kRSNa).
Last edited by ksrimech on 24 Dec 2010, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI.
I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!
I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
Pronunciation of Malayalam kritis by non-Malayalis (esp by Tamilians) is almost always atrocious.
But it gets ignored because most listeners don't know any better either!
But it gets ignored because most listeners don't know any better either!
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
sureshvv, that shows you neither now vaLLi or alli. vaLLi (puLinda kanya and wife of guruguhan) and alli (water lily) are of course different. The divyadEsam, tiruvallikENI cannot become tiruvaLLikENi! tirumangaiyAzhvAr sing tiruvallikENi kaNDEnE and not tiruvaLLikENi kaNDEne! AzhvAr also praise the alli flower being dear to mahAlakSmi tAyAr. tiruvallikENi (tiru + alli + kENi) means the auspicious pond of water lilies, while tiruvaLLikENI (tiru+ vaLLi + kENi) would mean pond of sweet tubers (a.k.a. sweet potato). I hope it makes sense to you.sureshvv wrote:The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI.
I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
sureshvv wrote:The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI. I don't consider this wrong.
Thank you for your explanation of tiruvallikeNi. But what has vaLLI got to do with it? As you admit, they are different.ksrimech wrote: sureshvv, that shows you neither now vaLLi or alli.
vaLLi (puLinda kanya and wife of guruguhan) and alli (water lily) are of course different.
<snip>
I hope it makes sense to you.
Sanskrit lacks the hard L in vaLLi so the name becomes srivalli when written in Sanskrit . But some people consider pronouncing the hard L wrong while singing this kriti while I feel that it is justified since that is after all her name.
Hope I am being clear.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
As mentioned by ksrimech, vaLLi is the name of Lord Muruga's consort, and alli is water lily.
In Tamil, when you write Tiru + alli, it become Tiruvalli. Hence the confusion.
For transliterating Tamil 'L' into Sanskrit, this letter is used:-
When Tamil names are written in Hindi, the l/L creates confusion. In the postage stamp issued on 3.12.2010, the name of Nadaswaram Vidhvan Sri Rajarathinam piLLai is written in Hindi as pillai. Similarly in the stamp of 31.12.08, the name of vaLLiammai is written in Hindi as vallIyammai.
In Tamil, when you write Tiru + alli, it become Tiruvalli. Hence the confusion.
For transliterating Tamil 'L' into Sanskrit, this letter is used:-
When Tamil names are written in Hindi, the l/L creates confusion. In the postage stamp issued on 3.12.2010, the name of Nadaswaram Vidhvan Sri Rajarathinam piLLai is written in Hindi as pillai. Similarly in the stamp of 31.12.08, the name of vaLLiammai is written in Hindi as vallIyammai.
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
Suresh, I think the point being made is that pronouncing vaLLi as valli is as wrong as doing the opposite with tiru-alli-kENi - pronouncing it as tiru-aLLi-kENi....sureshvv wrote:Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
sureshvv wrote:Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
Great! Thanks for clarifying. So we have consensus that it should be sung as "Sri vaLLI devesenapathe"? Can't believe it since I've been fighting this battle for yearsrshankar wrote: Suresh, I think the point being made is that pronouncing vaLLi as valli is as wrong as doing the opposite with tiru-alli-kENi - pronouncing it as tiru-aLLi-kENi....
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Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics
Thanks Ravi. Cant put better than that. I always tend to complicate things.
sureshvv, I think the confusing arose because I thought you were thinking valli in tiruvallikENi I mentioned in post #66 is the vaLLi in SrIvaLLidEvasEnApatE. I think we were talking about two different situations. Apologies.
sureshvv, I think the confusing arose because I thought you were thinking valli in tiruvallikENi I mentioned in post #66 is the vaLLi in SrIvaLLidEvasEnApatE. I think we were talking about two different situations. Apologies.