Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
vasanthakokilam
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#26

Post by vasanthakokilam » 03 Jan 2010, 05:02

I found this link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_m ... name_rania

"RANIA means as Indian name"queen" or "singing Queen"
but in Arabic it means "contented or satisfied by what she has"
in Greek it's a part of "Ourania" which means heaven
it also means "Royal" "
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cmlover
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#27

Post by cmlover » 03 Jan 2010, 06:03

...also interestingly notice the masculanisation of 'rANI' into 'rANa' (according to sanskrit reverse grammatical rules) to indicate 'ruler' found among Rajputs!
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srkris
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#28

Post by srkris » 03 Jan 2010, 16:02

Yes CML, rANI to rANA is a case of reverse masculization.

But Arabic rani is not related at all to either tamil or sanskrit rani in any way. Tamil has borrowed rANI from prakrit (like lots and lots of other sanskrit & prakrit words found in old tamil such as ilakkaNam, ilakkiyam, mA, to mention a few) and prakrit rANI in turn is nothing but a simplified form of sanskrit rAj~ni.

Indic rAj~ni has cognates all over the Indo-European family, it has structural affinities with IE. We cant randomly speculate based on similar sounding words.
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cmlover
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#29

Post by cmlover » 03 Jan 2010, 21:46

It must be 'masculinize' :)
check
http://www.answers.com/topic/masculinize

If rANI is in prakrit then how come it did not pass into classical sanskrit ?
My reasoning is that it cannot be derived from any of the existing dhAtus as per pANini.
rAjan is derived from 'ra~nj rAgE' (to please) but 'raN shabdE' (to sound) does not yield 'rANan' with a relevant meaning. You are permitted to coin such a word using the 'kanin' pratyayam but that would mean something related to sounding. For example the dictionary sports the word 'rANikA' (which means a bridle) derived from this dhAtu. Hence my supposition is that 'rANI' was imported into prakrit subsequently and could not be admitted into classical sanskrit!
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srkris
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#30

Post by srkris » 03 Jan 2010, 22:56

I don't know what you are talking about. Is there a rule that a Prakrit form of an Indic word should pass into Sanskrit?

rANI is not the sanskrit form. It is a prakritization of sanskrit rAj~ni and entered into tamil from prakrit.
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cmlover
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#31

Post by cmlover » 04 Jan 2010, 00:29

You claim
rAj~ni (sanskrit)-->rANI(prakrit)-->rANI(Tamil/dravidian))-->rani(ranee)(OED) etc.,
case closed :)
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srkris
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#32

Post by srkris » 04 Jan 2010, 21:48

The sanskrit form is rAj~nI
The prakrit form is rAnI
The dravidian form is rANI

I dont know what you mean by OED.
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cmlover
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#33

Post by cmlover » 04 Jan 2010, 22:12

Oxford English Dictionary!
(It gives the etymolgy as from Sanskrit(rAj~nI fem of rajan king)-->Hindi(rAnI)-->English(rani/ranee))
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vasanthakokilam
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#34

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Jan 2010, 23:00

1) btw, how do you say the 'j~' part of rAj~nI ?

2) Can Hindi be considered a prakrit form of Sanskrit? Or only marAthi, gujarAthi and bengAli will qualify.

3) I am still trying to understand what Suresh said which brought up this rANi discussion.

Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK? Or there are some other rules?
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#35

Post by srkris » 05 Jan 2010, 02:03

The English word rAni is just the same as the prakrit rAni (and I would presume is borrowed from that source).
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sureshvv
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#36

Post by sureshvv » 06 Jan 2010, 20:48

vasanthakokilam wrote: Suresh, what are your expectations? In MD compositions it should be 'rAj~nI' whereas in other languages 'rANi' is OK?
My expectation is that the singer can both tell and convey the difference and use the one that is appropriate.

I don't think it is strictly Sanskrit vs. Tamil compositions. For example, the tamil Sivan kriti "Devi Neeye Thunai" in Keeravani uses raj~ni, I think. Don't mean to throw a spanner in the "Language" works here :)
Last edited by sureshvv on 06 Jan 2010, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#37

Post by vasanthakokilam » 06 Jan 2010, 21:07

>raj~ni

I asked before, I am still not sure. How do you say the above?
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sridhar_ranga
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#38

Post by sridhar_ranga » 07 Jan 2010, 00:41

I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.

If so its more common representation in English transliteraruin is jn or gn or jny/gny. (gnAni, vignAnam).

In Marathi, they use the combination dny for the same sound I think (dnyAn = jnyAn / gnAn / gnyAn / gyAn).
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ragam-talam
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#39

Post by ragam-talam » 07 Jan 2010, 14:19

Several people pronounce it as 'gya' insterad of 'jna'. e.g. Vigyaan bhavan for Vijnaan bhavan
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sureshvv
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#40

Post by sureshvv » 25 Jan 2010, 11:11

"O Ranga sayee" instead of "O Ranga shayee" is another commonly heard screw up.

Kudos to Sriram Parthasarathy for doing a neraval at "Shukha Shounakhaadhi" and getting it right consistently. May be singing for the movies has him more careful about lyrics... Not!
Last edited by sureshvv on 25 Jan 2010, 11:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Music
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#41

Post by Music » 26 Jan 2010, 00:42

In Telugu, we have 3 kinds of 'sa' sounds and I thought it is similar in Sanskrit. Here is my understanding of the three kinds of 'sa' sounds.

1. 'sa' as in the first syllable in the word 'sanskrit'. When you pronounce this 'sa', you direct a stream of air very close to the teeth in the front of your mouth.

2. 'sha' as in the second syllable of the word 'vishnu'. You pronounce this 'sh' sound by directing the stream of air to the middle of your mouth.

3. 'sha' as in the first syllables of the words 'shuka', 'shounaka', 'shiva', 'shankara'. This is the most commonly confused one. For pronouncing this, you would direct the air stream neither like 1. above nor like 2. above. You would direct the air stream somewhere in between 1. and 2., so it effectively neither sounds like 'sa' as in 'sanskrit' nor like 'sha' as in 'vishnu'. It definitely sounds different from 1. and 2.

Can any pronunciation experts in Sanskrit confirm/correct the above please?
Last edited by Music on 26 Jan 2010, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.
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srkris
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#42

Post by srkris » 26 Jan 2010, 01:11

Music, I am not an expert, but what you said is very right.
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VK RAMAN
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#43

Post by VK RAMAN » 26 Jan 2010, 04:13

So are the pronouciations in Malayalam
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srkris
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#44

Post by srkris » 26 Jan 2010, 06:10

I found another instance of (what I believe to be) a major mispronunciation of a major song by a major artist.

http://www.charsur.com/charsur/index.ph ... ts_id=2964

She says "bakkala" again and again!!!
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vasanthakokilam
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#45

Post by vasanthakokilam » 26 Jan 2010, 07:08

Really? I hear a 'pa' and not a 'ba'.. May be she can be a bit more plosive on that 'pa' but hers is close to 'pa' than 'ba'. Let us see how others hear it.
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sureshvv
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#46

Post by sureshvv » 26 Jan 2010, 12:57

The very 1st time seems fine. Dangerously close the 2nd and 3rd time.Compare with the "pa" in nilapadi.
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srkris
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#47

Post by srkris » 26 Jan 2010, 21:28

Oops, sorry she is perfect the first time. I heard with headphones this time, laptop speakers last time. I should be more careful though.

However I think she says nilapaTi and volicE instead of nilabaDi and golicE
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vasanthakokilam
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#48

Post by vasanthakokilam » 27 Jan 2010, 04:27

There are four variations with 'pa/ba' and 'Ti/Di' and you say nilabaDi is correct. I hear the other three variations. :) Sorry Gayathri for the micro analysis. srkris started it :lol:

With laptop speakers.

nilabaTi - first time

nilapaTi - second time

nilapaDi - third time

-----------
And voliche or oliche
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S.Govindaswamy
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#49

Post by S.Govindaswamy » 27 Jan 2010, 05:56

>sridhar_rang wrote :
I assume the j~n in rAj~ni is similar to the in j~n in words like sarvaj~na, vij~nyAn, j~nyAni, poorna praj~nya, etc.<


I am giving the first lines of two songs of tyAgarAja where this diphthong occurs in the beginning and middle of words. I would like to know the correct pronunciations.
1 j~nAnamosaga rAda
जà¥ÂÂ
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ragam-talam
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#50

Post by ragam-talam » 27 Jan 2010, 18:16

Govindaswamy, based on my exposure to Sanskrit and Malayalam (in addition to Tamil) I can tell you that the 'correct' pronunciation does have the 'ja' sound before the '~na' sound. The use of 'ga' sound seems to be a Tamil speciality!
I assume both Kannada and Telugu also use the 'j~na' sound, knowing they are based on Sanskrit.
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