Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
sureshvv
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#51 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv » 21 Dec 2010, 11:15

"Sukha paNi" is the latest one I was stung with.
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arunk
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#52 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk » 21 Dec 2010, 20:44

A curiosity question: In Sanskrit, the sha (as in bAsha) much rarer at the start of a word compared to Sa (as in Siva)? The few words I could think off all have Sa at the beginning but my Sanskrit knowledge is pretty much non-existent :)

Arun
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#53 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 21 Dec 2010, 20:55

You are right!
There are approximately 16 times more words starting with sh (e.g. shiva) than words starting with S (e.g. Sanmukha).
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rshankar
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#54 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar » 21 Dec 2010, 21:52

I edited my original post after reading Suresh's posts in the GV review thread. While the S (as in Siva) and the sh (as in shaNmukha) sounds are problematic, I have even more issues with the mispronunciation of Sukha (a word without a meaning) versus Suka (which means a parrot)....
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vgovindan
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#55 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by vgovindan » 21 Dec 2010, 22:26

The 'mh', 'hm', 'hn', 'hN' combinations create more confusion. For example 'siMha' is pronounced in Maharashtra as 'sihma'. (You may refer to Devi Mahatmyam rendered by Anuradha Paudwal - all such 'mh' combinations are pronounced as 'hm'.)
How do you pronounce 'vahni' - is it 'vanhi' or 'vahni'?
Is it 'cinha' or 'cihna' (in Hindi, it is pronounced as 'cinha')
Is it 'brAhmaNa' or 'brAmhaNa'?
Is it 'ghRhNa' or 'ghRNha'?
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#56 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 21 Dec 2010, 22:43

It is 'makA gaNapati' - not 'mahA gaNapati' for a number of singers.
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rshankar
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#57 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar » 21 Dec 2010, 22:55

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:It is 'makA gaNapati' - not 'mahA gaNapati' for a number of singers.
LOL! Only for the ones who use the tamizh script exclusively....
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ksrimech
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#58 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech » 22 Dec 2010, 05:28

Some of the pronunciations I have heard!
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
Last edited by ksrimech on 22 Dec 2010, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
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sureshvv
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#59 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv » 22 Dec 2010, 09:59

ksrimech wrote:Some the pronunciations I have heard!
nArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA! (Seasoned artistes with 30-40-50 years of experience did this and are still doing this)
Can you point out the error :$ ? Is "smaranAya" preferred to "smaraneya"?
sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!

srI sangara guruveram cindayAmi bavaharam!
Do you mean "prabhu" vs "prebhu" and "guruvaram" vs "guruveram" here ?

I have found Telugu speaking people frequently doing this and relegate this particular problem to an accent issue rather than a mispronunciation. For eg., the tamil word "solli" is variously pronounced as "cholli" or "sholli" and can be seen as a dialect rather than a mispronunciation. IMO, this even adds a certain charm to the delivery.
paramEsa vaSiSTha parAcara nArada sounaga suta! (I heard this from a upcoming female artiste on youtube recently!)
Yeah... Sa, S'a, Sha and Cha also gets into the fray for musicians learning from undecorated tamil script.
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arunk
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#60 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk » 22 Dec 2010, 20:49

sureshvv wrote: Can you point out the error :$ ? Is "smaranAya" preferred to "smaraneya"?
It should be Na as opposed to na.
Do you mean "prabhu" vs "prebhu" and "guruvaram" vs "guruveram" here ?
Besides those, sri for SrI - yes I have also observed these among telugiites - the sa for Sa, and "e" for "a" in places. I do not know if it is specific to certain areas of Andhra.

IMO, many of these "mispronunciations", are indeed a characteristic of an accent - i.e. the overbearing effect of one's own dialect (from one's own region) - even in cases where people are aware of the differences and have trained for. Of course in many cases it is also out of ignorance and/or not as much diligence as is required (e.g. in tamil nadu with people who are not sufficiently exposed to phonetics of other languages and their scripts, or have not considered the phonetic differences carefully enough).

Arun
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rshankar
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#61 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar » 22 Dec 2010, 21:05

ksrimech wrote:ArAyanA ninna nAmada smaraneyA!
nArAyaNA ninna nAmada smaraNeya
ksrimech wrote:sangara srI giri nAda prebu kE nrit virAjita cittasebAmE!
Sankara SrI giri nAtha prabhU kE nritta virAjit citt sabhA mE
The use of 'e' instead of 'a' is also something that I've noticed in native maLayALam speakers ...remA instead of ramA etc...
This whole concept of accent coloring the way the people pronounce when they sing must be unique to the Indian languages...regardless of their country of origin, all country music singers for instance sound the same to me for the most part - Keith Urban (from Australia), the Dixie Chicks (from the US) or Shania Twain (from Canada) don't sound very different when they sing, but have unique speaking accents....
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arunk
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#62 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk » 22 Dec 2010, 21:15

ravi - There most certainly are differences in rock and popular music.

Many country singers have a strong southern twang (imagine one of them singing "She'll never.... ever...." ;-).

Many blues singers have strong accents - southern + african-american.

British singers (e.g. Pink Floyd) would say "woter" (approx) to some american singers' "wawder" .

But many american rock singers do try to imitate the British accent - because of the impact of British bands in american rock culture and history.

Also, as country goes main stream, it is possible that many of them consciously go for the neutral accent (e.g. newsreader) - not sure.

Arun
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#63 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 22 Dec 2010, 23:07

It is shri, not sri/Sri.
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arunk
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#64 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by arunk » 22 Dec 2010, 23:11

but it depends on what your "S" vs. 'sh' is - (unfortunately) different transliteration schemes use the exact opposite meanings for those two!

Arun
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vgovindan
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#65 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by vgovindan » 22 Dec 2010, 23:19

When a language has a sound natural to it, it makes little meaning in not using it. For example, English pronunciation of 'sh' is equivalent to 'ष' (bush, rush, shine etc.). Therefore, the method of transliterating 'ष' would be 'sh' and not 'S'.
As a corollary, 'S' would stand for 'श' and 's' for 'स'
This is the method adopted by me for transliterating Tyagaraja and MD Kritis.
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ksrimech
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#66 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech » 23 Dec 2010, 00:41

One my favorite male vocalist (and probably the best) sings tiruvaLLikENi uRai instead of tiruvallikENi uRai in the pallavi line of pArthasArati un pAdam paNindEn (kAmbhOji - ambujam kRSNa). :)
Last edited by ksrimech on 24 Dec 2010, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.
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sureshvv
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#67 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv » 23 Dec 2010, 07:40

The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI.

I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!
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ragam-talam
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#68 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ragam-talam » 23 Dec 2010, 22:24

Pronunciation of Malayalam kritis by non-Malayalis (esp by Tamilians) is almost always atrocious.
But it gets ignored because most listeners don't know any better either!
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ksrimech
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#69 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech » 24 Dec 2010, 01:29

sureshvv wrote:The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI.

I don't consider this wrong. In fact this may be the correct pronunciation if vaLLi has a say!
sureshvv, that shows you neither now vaLLi or alli. vaLLi (puLinda kanya and wife of guruguhan) and alli (water lily) are of course different. The divyadEsam, tiruvallikENI cannot become tiruvaLLikENi! tirumangaiyAzhvAr sing tiruvallikENi kaNDEnE and not tiruvaLLikENi kaNDEne! AzhvAr also praise the alli flower being dear to mahAlakSmi tAyAr. tiruvallikENi (tiru + alli + kENi) means the auspicious pond of water lilies, while tiruvaLLikENI (tiru+ vaLLi + kENi) would mean pond of sweet tubers (a.k.a. sweet potato). I hope it makes sense to you.
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sureshvv
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#70 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv » 24 Dec 2010, 05:24

sureshvv wrote:The often heard Srivalli devasenapathe was sung as sri vaLLI. I don't consider this wrong.
ksrimech wrote: sureshvv, that shows you neither now vaLLi or alli.
vaLLi (puLinda kanya and wife of guruguhan) and alli (water lily) are of course different.
<snip>
I hope it makes sense to you.
Thank you for your explanation of tiruvallikeNi. But what has vaLLI got to do with it? As you admit, they are different.

Sanskrit lacks the hard L in vaLLi so the name becomes srivalli when written in Sanskrit . But some people consider pronouncing the hard L wrong while singing this kriti while I feel that it is justified since that is after all her name.

Hope I am being clear.
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#71 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 24 Dec 2010, 07:16

As mentioned by ksrimech, vaLLi is the name of Lord Muruga's consort, and alli is water lily.

In Tamil, when you write Tiru + alli, it become Tiruvalli. Hence the confusion.

For transliterating Tamil 'L' into Sanskrit, this letter is used:-
Image

When Tamil names are written in Hindi, the l/L creates confusion. In the postage stamp issued on 3.12.2010, the name of Nadaswaram Vidhvan Sri Rajarathinam piLLai is written in Hindi as pillai. Similarly in the stamp of 31.12.08, the name of vaLLiammai is written in Hindi as vallIyammai.
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sureshvv
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#72 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv » 24 Dec 2010, 09:17

Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
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rshankar
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#73 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by rshankar » 24 Dec 2010, 10:12

sureshvv wrote:Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
Suresh, I think the point being made is that pronouncing vaLLi as valli is as wrong as doing the opposite with tiru-alli-kENi - pronouncing it as tiru-aLLi-kENi....
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sureshvv
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#74 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by sureshvv » 24 Dec 2010, 10:46

sureshvv wrote:Not sure what SrivaLLi devasenapathe has to do with thiruvallikeNi... Don't think any of them is from around there...
rshankar wrote: Suresh, I think the point being made is that pronouncing vaLLi as valli is as wrong as doing the opposite with tiru-alli-kENi - pronouncing it as tiru-aLLi-kENi....
Great! Thanks for clarifying. So we have consensus that it should be sung as "Sri vaLLI devesenapathe"? Can't believe it since I've been fighting this battle for years ;-)
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ksrimech
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#75 Re: Top ten egregious mispronunciation of lyrics

Post by ksrimech » 24 Dec 2010, 10:53

Thanks Ravi. Cant put better than that. I always tend to complicate things. :grin:

sureshvv, I think the confusing arose because I thought you were thinking valli in tiruvallikENi I mentioned in post #66 is the vaLLi in SrIvaLLidEvasEnApatE. I think we were talking about two different situations. Apologies.
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