Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
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kssr
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Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by kssr »

I have come to know in this forum that there are many fans (rasikas) for Tamizh songs. Here is one which is supposed to be a landmark in its evolution. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KCxxAGsEDg

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

Typical ARR! Trying carefully to steer clear of even a tinge of CM :(

kssr
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by kssr »

cmlover wrote:Typical ARR! Trying carefully to steer clear of even a tinge of CM :(
I just now saw the video presentation of the same in Kalaignar TV. Believe me or not- there are Vidushis Bombay Jayashree, Aruna Sairam, Nithyashri and Vidwan TM Krishna in the production. I think it is the love of Tamil!! :)

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

Can somebody post the video clip?
For B Jayasree this can be her next step to fame following 'vaseegara' :D

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>Trying carefully to steer clear of even a tinge of CM

CML, 3:00 to 3:30 mark, there is some semblance of CM!!!

Again around 4:12 to 4:40 ( that may be TMK?)

jnanasoonyam
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by jnanasoonyam »

kssr wrote:there are Vidushis Bombay Jayashree, Aruna Sairam, Nithyashri and Vidwan TM Krishna in the production
You missed Smt. Sowmya
vasanthakokilam wrote:3:00 to 3:30 mark, there is some semblance of CM!!!
The female Carnatic voices in sequence: BJ (akaara), Aruna (very brief akaara passage), Nithyasree (unmistakable), then Sowmya (akaara followed by a quick 'semmozhi semmozhi...' culminating in 'tamizh mozhiyaaaaaaaaam')
vasanthakokilam wrote:Again around 4:12 to 4:40 ( that may be TMK?)
Yes.

venkatpv
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by venkatpv »

The least the singers could have done was get their tamizh pronunciation right. :(

kssr
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by kssr »

cmlover wrote:Can somebody post the video clip?
:D
I understand that it will be released only at the conference in Coimbatore. I guess, however that it will be out before that. It starts with TMS. I saw the following low quality picture on youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1TNwF62 ... re=related

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

VK,
Around Nityashree's singing, I heard a hint of mOhanam. When I finished listening to the song, a distinct pahADi strain stayed with me. As pleasing as Rahman's music can be, the subject being tamizh mozhi, touches of paNs or tamizh folk rAgams would have enhanced the good lyrics (whose?). Even in the percussion section, hardly the sound of a mrudanagam or a tavil. I heard pop, a bit of jazz, some old hindi film tunes but not a whole lot of tamizhisai.Though I am not a 'strictly CM only listener' and am open to other genres of music, I found this special edition a bit lacking in tamizh-ness. Then again, thousands are raving about it, I'm sure. WIth his immense talent, Rahman can easily come up with a CemmaiyAna tamizh song in a CM based tune another time!

ragam-talam
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by ragam-talam »

Does this cacophony thread really belong under kutcheri reviews section?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Moved to the Languages section.

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

Semmai + ozhi = semmozhi (get rid of beauty/melody/classicism/...)
I agree this song does that job quite well :D

srkris
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by srkris »

Why does the logo depict indus civilization seals all over? The title on the logo is in English? The song is only so-so, lyrics are ok but music is not so nice.

ksrimech
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by ksrimech »

semmoliyAnE tamil moliyAnE :(

kssr
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by kssr »

I did not know that this thread initiated by me has been "moved" here. Thought it was deleted by MOD due to the inappropriateness of the topic to this forum.

Anyhow for someone who asked for a video clip, here is a better one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3_78o-9IU

Lyrics is by Kalaignar Karunanidhi. Opening words "Pirappokkum Ella Uyirkum"-(All are born equal)- a concept that we cannot come to terms with even in the 21st century.

Rahman said during the launch of this song in Chennai that he wanted to show that tamizh belonged to the whole world and hence included pieces of all kinds of music (arasi recognised it). Of course not entirely to a CM lover's taste.

Are there fora like rasikas entirely dedicated to Tamizh language matters? If any one knows pls. let me know. It is unfortunate that there is not much crucial research about the tamizh language itself- development of literature, script, history of the language, turning points during the long period of survival of the language, etc., Doctorate are given, I understand, dime a dozen for "research" on Kannadasan kavidhaigal" and so on!!

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

I know Forumhub used to discuss Thamizh language issues.
There is also one called manRa maiyam.
You can google for these sites.

As for the video clip it is OK---nothing to write home about. If I were to edit it I would have removed the high-strain screeching noises and some scenes which do not fit properly. By the way "piRappokkum ellA uyirkkum siRappovvA
seytozhil vERRumai yAn" is the tirukkuRaL. The first line was borrowed by the kalaignar if he wrote the lyrics. The other lines such as "yAdum UrE yAvarum kELir", "tIdum nanRum piRar tara vArA". were from puRanAnURu. "uNbadu nAzhi" was also borrowed. However, Kalaignar blended them together like KaNNadAsan used to borrow from Thamizh classics and tweak a bit.

kssr
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by kssr »

mahakavi wrote:I know Forumhub used to discuss Thamizh language issues.
There is also one called manRa maiyam.
You can google for these sites.

As for the video clip it is OK---nothing to write home about. If I were to edit it I would have removed the high-strain screeching noises and some scenes which do not fit properly. By the way "piRappokkum ellA uyirkkum siRappovvA
seytozhil vERRumai yAn" is the tirukkuRaL. The first line was borrowed by the kalaignar if he wrote the lyrics. The other lines such as "yAdum UrE yAvarum kELir", "tIdum nanRum piRar tara vArA". were from puRanAnURu. "uNbadu nAzhi" was also borrowed. However, Kalaignar blended them together like KaNNadAsan used to borrow from Thamizh classics and tweak a bit.
Thanks. Will try the sites.

I took it for granted that people knew where the opening words came from. But it is good that you pointed in out for people not so familiar with these seyyuLs.

srkris
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by srkris »

Tiruvalluvar wrote: ciRappovvA ceytozhil, not siRappovvA seytozhil.

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

srkris wrote:Tiruvalluvar wrote: ciRappovvA ceytozhil, not siRappovvA seytozhil.
How do you know? Did you hear him speak?
It is siRappu and seytozhil not ciRappu and ceytozhil.

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

Let alone young srkris, none of us here are that ancient to have had the fortune of hearing tiruvaLLuvar speak! The same with even our young bArati!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Is it not bhArati?

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

Pratyaksham Bala,
I used to write that way but since we say it in tamizh as bArati, and sing sanskrit words in tamizh songs as we pronounce them in tamizh, it has become a habit with me, I suppose!
Wish Arun were here to guide me! He seems too be too busy with his work :(

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Incidentally, bhArati alias mAhi is one of the three goddesses mentioned in Rig Veda. The other two: saraswati and iLa.

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

भारती (bhAratI)
This is how Vaman Apte's Sanskrit dictionary writes for the entry describing the goddess Sarasvati (as also speech, eloquence etc.)

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

In Rg Veda (RV) there are a number of references to three Goddesses – Bharati (bhAratI), Saraswati (sarasvatI) and Ila (iLA).

RV II-3-8 refers to: the three Goddesses – Saraswati who prefers devotion, Ila the divine and Bharati all surpassing …
RV IX-5-8 refers to: the three beauteous Goddesses Saraswati, Bharati and Ila
RV X-60-8 prays to: Bharati, Ila and Saraswati to come quickly and be seated …

bhArati/bhAratI
It has become an accepted practice to write in Tamizh not only bhAratI as bhArati, but also saraswatI, mAlatI, gAyatrI, pArvatI, rEvatI and several other names as: saraswati, mAlati, gAyatri, pArvati and rEvati, etc. May be to avoid having ‘tI’ (fire) in the names!
Last edited by Pratyaksham Bala on 29 Jun 2010, 09:59, edited 2 times in total.

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

>>May be to avoid having ‘tI’ (fire) in the names!<<
Quite likely! Proper names could be written in several ways, especially after the British made a mess of the native names.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

As mentioned in post #25 above
It has become an accepted practice to write in Tamizh not only bhAratI as bhArati, but also saraswatI, mAlatI, gAyatrI, pArvatI, rEvatI and several other names as: saraswati, mAlati, gAyatri, pArvati and rEvati, etc. May be to avoid having ‘tI’ (fire) in the names!

But, what about masculine names?
krishna is a masculine name; but it is written in Tamizh as krishnA which is a feminine name. It refers to Lord Krishna’s sister subhadrA.

There are several such examples where the Sanskrit names are written differently in Tamizh. Another notable example is: rAma, which is written in Tamizh as rAmA. Similarly nArAyana, mukunda and kEsava are written in Tamizh as nArAyanA, mukundA and kEsavA.

The reason for this practice is not known. Can anyone enlighten?

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

draupati was also known as krishNA (meaning black in complexion)

As for Thamizh equivalents for Sanskrit names: krishNA, mukundA, kEsavA, and nArAyaNA------ these names were used for addressing the deities just like SrinivAsA, gOpAlA, ENDA, etc.( what is called viLi vERRumai ---the "A" is the vigudi). But when you write them down as names you add the "n" ---KrishNan, gOpAlan, kEsavan, etc.

We don't say "KrishNA vandAn" but "KrishNan vandAn"

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Agreed!
But I have friends named kEsavA and mukundA.
And don't we know one Mr. krishNA?
Last edited by Pratyaksham Bala on 29 Jun 2010, 21:43, edited 2 times in total.

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

I wonder how KEsavA's father calls him when he wants something from him---KEsavAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA? :grin:

ksrimech
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by ksrimech »

As mahakavi pointed out, ashthama vibhakti or sambhodana prathama has now been converted into feminine names. hEy rAma is now rAmA and hEy kRSNa is kRSNA. BTW aDiyEn is only Mr. kRSNa mAdhavan though. :grin:

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

krishna, krishna!
KrishnA ;)
I have just escaped from a smithy before being swatted (okay, chased out!).
Lyrical and flowery vaishNava paribAshai certainly is, but your 'aDi'yEn at this moment makes my heart beat faster :lol:

srkris
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by srkris »

mahakavi wrote:How do you know? Did you hear him speak?
It is siRappu and seytozhil not ciRappu and ceytozhil.
I have 150 years of research on dravidian phonetics on my side. He wrote ciRappu and ceytozhil and the modern Tamilian's preference to pronounce it as siRappu and seytozhil makes little difference to what he wrote.

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

arasi
You legitimately invoke
"krishNA krishNA muRayE kEL nI
tamiiyEN yaar enakkuthavuvaar.."
BhArathy Sould reassure
"jayamuNDu bhayamillai manamE"... :D
By the by you are not a fly on the wall but a hawk (rAjALi - king (Queen) eagle) who watches all over the Forum critically (but benignly!). It is foolish to try to swat you with a fly swatter :D

being a free bird you come and go at your own will!

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

srkris wrote: I have 150 years of research on dravidian phonetics on my side. He wrote ciRappu and ceytozhil and the modern Tamilian's preference to pronounce it as siRappu and seytozhil makes little difference to what he wrote.
Your side? Hmmm... did you do any of your own or are you banking on others' research. 150 years of phonetic research.
Also I wonder how tiruvaLLuvar wrote the sounds in letters! Was that a "talking" book like we have now for children? Can I have a copy of that book where he wrote the sounds?
Wonder where those words ciRappu and ceytozhil with "c" sounds can be found explaining the sounds. References please!

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

CML,
nanRi ;)

arasenakkillaiyenRAlum,
ALumai aRiyAk kuDi magaL
nAn AnAlum, irAja pArvaiyilum
mElAm--uRu naNbar kuzhAm
anRu diroupadikkena vanda
kaNNanaippOl arugirundAl,
nADum, ariyaNaiyum ,vEREdum
vENDumO eLiyavaL manam?

anRavan 'viTTu viDudalaiyAgi
Or ciTTuk kuruviayaip pOl'
paRakkac connAn--irASALigaL
nADALaTTum, nAn vAnil tirigiREn!

Anyhow, I got promoted from being a fly to 'fly around, little birdie'!

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

kaNNan chonnAn
I kkum rAjALikkum mAniDarukkum aanmA onRE!
kolbavan yaar? kollappaDuvathu ethu?
ithai aRiyaamal kolvEn enRu kURupavan mUDan!

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

Krishna,
I mean the terrsetrial one--have you got a pAsuram for this? I mean, for the first two lines of what CML says?

CML.
Your first two lines are profound, indeed. As for the third line: if I were moody, I could call myself that in english. Also in tamizh, I suppose (as in kuruDi). So, the masculine for that would be...?
Last edited by arasi on 01 Jul 2010, 07:14, edited 2 times in total.

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

nAnA kolai seydEn? illai, illavE illai! KaNNanE kolai seydAn!
I yai aDittavan avanE! paRavaiyAy mARRiyavanum avanE!
pazhi oru pakkam irukka pAvam En innoru pakkam?
edaRku mUDan paTTam ellAm?
aRiyAmaiyE nI innum pala manidargaLiDam ulavik koNDirukkirAy!

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

aduvum avan SeyalE!

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

kolbavan
kURupavan
Why this dichotomy?

arasi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by arasi »

typOvum avan seyalE...

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

You tell me how we shold say lotus = pankajam in Tamil
If you say it is pangajam then you are wrong!
If Tamil can accommodate sanskrit words appropriately why should it deny the same for its own words? There are hundreds of words in Sanskrit which start with 'ca' but then why should you deny that previlege to Tamil?

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

cmlover wrote:You tell me how we shold say lotus = pankajam in Tamil
If you say it is pangajam then you are wrong!
Who says so? It is pangajam or pangayam in pronunciation
If Tamil can accommodate sanskrit words appropriately why should it deny the same for its own words? There are hundreds of words in Sanskrit which start with 'ca' but then why should you deny that previlege to Tamil?
Sanskrit and Thamizh are not the same. Thamizh is unique and so is Sanskrit. If you think Sanskrit is a model language and others should follow it your are sadly mistaken. Sanskrit is a dead language. Thamizh is not. That is a major difference. It is not a privilege to begin a word with "ca" and if one language permits it, there is no need for another to do the same. I wonder why you insist on unison in usage of words in different languages.

Now who is mainiaining all rabbits should have only 3 legs?

ragam-talam
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by ragam-talam »

Hmm, not sure if it's more the case of someone pulling a rabbit out of a hat!

Check this out:
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... te/page-8/

Click on the icon next to 'Chennai' - what do you hear? I don't hear 'sennai' - do you?

Also:
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... te/page-5/

Click on செவ்வாய் and சனி
What do you hear? I don't hear 'sevvAi' or 'sani' - do you?

To borrow a phrase from the 'Few' thread:
"There's little merit in your argument."

cmlover
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by cmlover »

Along with celebrating Canada Day and our Neighbour's Independance Day, I am now gone for the rest of the week. Please continue the debate in good spirits!
Sub can take a respite from my harassments :D

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

ragam-talam wrote: Check this out:
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... te/page-8/

Click on the icon next to 'Chennai' - what do you hear? I don't hear 'sennai' - do you?
When you write it as Chennai and ask some anonymous person what do you expect?

Also:
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... te/page-5/

Click on செவ்வாய் and சனி
What do you hear? I don't hear 'sevvAi' or 'sani' - do you?
Some male from India Chris 6674 pronounced it for a no-name website run by some no-name individuals. You cite it as an authority? I sympathize with your desperation.

To borrow a phrase from the 'Few' thread:
"There's little merit in your argument."
As they say in mutual greetings "same with yours too"
I suggest you contact an academic from a Thamizh department before venturing into more such no-name citations.

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

cmlover wrote:Sub can take a respite from my harassments :D
You should find somebody else to harass. I shall not be harassed by ANYONE. :)

mahakavi
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by mahakavi »

ragam-talam wrote:Hmm, not sure if it's more the case of someone pulling a rabbit out of a hat!

Check this out:
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... te/page-8/

Click on the icon next to 'Chennai' - what do you hear? I don't hear 'sennai' - do you?

Also:
http://www.forvo.com/languages-pronunci ... te/page-5/

Click on செவ்வாய் and சனி
What do you hear? I don't hear 'sevvAi' or 'sani' - do you?

To borrow a phrase from the 'Few' thread:
"There's little merit in your argument."
Check this out.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Tamil_phrasebook
gray
saambal (...)
red
sivappu (...)
Nice to meet you.
உங்கள பார்த்தது ரொம்ப சந்தோஷம்
ungGala paatthadhu romba santhOsham
Please.
தயவு செய்து
thayavu seithu
Secret.
ragasiyam
It's an emergency.
romba avasaram / romba urgent
Tuesday
sevvaai
Saturday
sani
lunch
lunch (madhiam sapadu)
supper
supper (sayangalam sapadu)


Do you pronounce the Thamizh months "mAsi" as "mAci", "vaikAsi" as "vaikAci", and "puraTTAsi" as "puraTTAci"?

srkris
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Re: Semmozhiaam Tamizh mozhi-Karunanidhi-AR Rahman

Post by srkris »

mahakavi wrote:Also I wonder how tiruvaLLuvar wrote the sounds in letters! Was that a "talking" book like we have now for children? Can I have a copy of that book where he wrote the sounds?
Wonder where those words ciRappu and ceytozhil with "c" sounds can be found explaining the sounds. References please!
In standard Tamil, ச is a voiceless palatal affricate ( IPA: tʃ ); not a sibilant. This is accepted consensually among Dravidian scholars.

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From 'Naladiyar, or, Four hundred quatrains in Tamil' by G.U.Pope, pg 272 (published by Asian Educational Services, 1997): "Tamil has neither aspirates nor sibilants, nor can it express in general a consonantal diphthong."

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From 'A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian Or South-Indian Family of Languages' By Robert Caldwell:

Page 30: "It has already been mentioned that Tamil is destitute of sibilants. The other Dravidian idioms freely use the sibilants and aspirates of Sanskrit in writing and pronouncing Sanskrit derivatives, and to some extent, through the prevalence of sanskrit influences, in the pronunciation even of pure Dravidian words."

Page 33: "Thus Tamil omits the aspirates even of Sanskrit derivatives, and omits or changes all the sibilants."

Page 86: "One of these laws consists in the simple omission of non-Dravidian sounds, such as the sibilants. Thus sahasram, Sans. for one thousand, becomes in Can. savira, in Tulu sAra, in Tamil Ayiram."

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From 'Winslow's A comprehensive Tamil and English dictionary' By M. Winslow, page 529: "ஸ். A sibilant letter fromt he Grantha or the Sanscrit alphabet.-Note. All words beginning witht his letter, and their derivatives, are, of course, Sanscrit or of Sanscrit derivation. The native Tamil has no sibilant letter, ச் being properly a palatal."

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The Dravidian languages By Bhadriraju Krishnamurti, page 122: "Early Tamil attests the loss of Sanskrit and Prakrit sibilants in loanwords (Burrow 1943: 132-5) more than any other language."

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The Tamil alphabet is phonetically arranged similar to Sanskrit:

Velar க . . . ங
Palatal ச . . . ஞ
Retroflex ட . . . ண
Dental த . . . ந
Labial ப . . . ம
(The dots above represent the voiced and aspirated sounds not present in standard Tamil but present in Sanskrit under the same phonetic arrangement)

So what is this unsubstantiated claim you're making, that ச was a sibilant to Tiruvalluvar and those of his time? Pray tell us why your claim is more sound than the research of eminent Dravidian scholars such as Emeneau, Caldwell, Krishnamurthy, Winslow, Burrow and Pope? And why is ச classified in the place of a palatal consonant in the alphabetical scheme if it is a sibilant in your opinion?

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