Do songs in any particular language move you more, and why?

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
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rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

This is a posting in response to the bruhaha (or do I mean 'a storm in a teacup?') that is brewing in the sangeetham bb on the language choice. While that thread has quickly degenrated into a rather uncouth and uncivil fracas, I am hoping for a saner and erudite discussion here! At the very outset, let me iterate and re-iterate that this thread is not about the language of the songs to be sung in a concert, but about what moves you, when you listen to music:
I know that to many music lovers, the true beauty of music knows no language barriers, and that the saying 'adhvaitha sidhDHiki, amarathva labDHiki gAnamE sOpAnamU' doesn't specify the language the gAnam should be in! Therefore, it seems to logically follow that anyone who desires or asks for a song in a particular language is a second class citizen in the world of 'music' lovers. Now, I find that hard to understand, because of the prominence given to krithis in CM. Be that as it may, I find that my grip on the rungs of the 'sOpAnam' to immortality are firmer if I understand the 'gAnam' better. Secondly, I think that not appreciating the lyrics is a profound disservice to the musical and literary genius of the composer. For this kind of appreciation, just a cursory knowledge of the language is not sufficient.
As far as I am concerned, it is not just the language, but the pronunciation and enunciation that contribute in equal measures to understanding the lyrics: I am unlikely to appreciate a song just because it is in tamizh (my mother tongue) if the lyrics sound like 'vadAm, appaLAm poriththEn'! By the same token, I get very upset when a song with divine lyrics like 'man kI AnKEn KOl' is trivilaized to 'that monkey song'.
Bottomline: I enjoy music better if I understand the lyrics! The exact language is immaterial. Along those lines, the compositions of Ramadasa are easier for me to follow, than those of Tyagaraja or Annamacharya. Similarly, I prefer compositions of Sivan, Kalki and Ambujam Krishna to the compositions in 'shentamizh'. I love the compositions of Tulsi, Soor and Mira....and hate it when people maul the words.
Comments/opinions?
Ravi

srkris
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Post by srkris »

My own humble opinion is that language should be used in such a way as to heighten the overall effect of the music, and when people impose conditions and restrictions on music based on a particular language, it only serves to pull down the music as a whole. It is like saying that Tamil songs should be sung mostly (or only) in Thodi and Kalyani - it's so absurd.

That said, I have no problem in recognising that certain languages are inherently musical and therefore find favour with composers, although I also acknowledge that it could be because of the composer's relative ignorance of other languages.

Ravi, could you elaborate this: "adhvaitha sidhDHiki, amarathva labDHiki gAnamE sOpAnamU"??? I'm not sure I get the whole import.

I accept that the lyrics and the language are very important to music, but they are not more important than the music itself. Give language its due importance but not undue importance... something like this quote of Einstein (Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler). :wink

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

I am not disputing the fact that language should not become more important than the music itself. My question simply was: do songs in any one language increase your appreciation of the music? And if so, why? Stated differently, does 'sarOjadhaLanEthrI' appeal more/differently than 'srI chandhramolIshwarArDHnarIshwara' (both in shankarABaraNam)? Or 'yE nAti nOmu phalamO' or 'yArO, ivar yArO?'? Or 'nArAyaNa dhivya nAmam' or 'chEri yashOdhaku sishu ithadU'?
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it doesn't matter to you - the language of the composition is immaterial.

I am afraid that the phrase I quoted has a very 'light' origin: In the movie 'shankarABaraNam' there is a dance/song where the line 'adhvaitha sidhDHiki amarathva labDHiki gAnamE sOpAnamU' features. I think it translates into: music (gAnam) is the ladder/stairway (sOpAnam) that will lead to the establishment of the principles of 'adhvaitha' and attaining immortality (amarathva labDHi). This phrase/line captures the essence of all music - a means of salvation. It appealed to me a lot, and my memory was further re-inforced by the directors' interprettation of the philosophy of 'adhvaitha': he had Manju Bhargavi standing by a pool and showed both her and her reflection in the shot!
Ravi

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

My Few cents

I feel all the clamour arises out of the misconception that
that the listener, the composition and the singing are all finished Products
and not Work in Progress.

And under such circumstances , one can always find an argument for or against
a theory.


Fundamentally I feel that Music is a much more basic language ,linking us
to some very deep and unknown origins .

Let me elaborate further.A couple of months ago I was busy working on a
track of lalmani misra bhibas on the Veena.While I was playing, editing
and again playing, We had visitors.A 14 year mentally retarded girl and her parents
trooped in to meet my Wife (a Special educator)The girl had become absolutely
difficult to handle for over three days .The exasperated parents slumped
on our sofa listing their complaints to my Wife while the girl was thrashing around.

I was busy in my room doing this bhibas work and i was not sure exactly when these
people had arrived.Just as I was playing the Bhibas track for the last time
The father rushed in exclaiming,"My God ! what is that music.For Gods sake keep playing
it.She has quietened down for the first time in 72 hours".And what I saw
for the next half an hour or so was unbelievable.
A mentally Challenged (are they ? i am not sure)
girl enjoying with closed eyes a kind of music a normal child would pass
as noise.
I did make a copy of this as well as other tracks for the girl and they have
now arrived at Music therapy as a probable method of helping her,
but i am still perplexed.what was that language which made her quiet and roll her
eyes and concentrate.Was it something from out of this world?

And watching My Wife singing nice tamil songs for the girl for the rest of the session
brought back memories of a nice bit of advice my Wife received
from my father 14 years ago.New in chennai after marriage, she was thrown out of an interview
for admission to a part-time music program, simply because she could
not sing a tamil krithi(yes these things do exist , but they are exceptions)
She had started ranting about that at home for an hour or so after which she asked my Father
'Are you not going to say something?"
My Dad ,who was busy repairing a broken cassette , took a break and said
"Look , if at all you have to grow something on your head , let it be antennae,
not Horns"

That brings me to my starting point.all of us have our own methods and reasons for music.
the difficulties arise when we try to make others look at things the way we do.
The only time I spoke to DRS over phone, I was stunned by the purity in his kannada.
Why there might be only 100 surviving people like him in the whole
of karnataka !.Has it cut anyway into his knowledge / Love of Tamil or Telugu or sanskrit
I now know it has not.
And that is why I shall always consider myself a Work In Progress, never a Finished Product.

meena
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Post by meena »

"Look , if at all you have to grow something on your head , let it be antennae,not Horns" - what a quote kji! Power and affect of words.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Hmm, that's why I said in Sangeetham BBoard also "Music is a language by itself, it's the language of nature, so it need not be restricted by any artificial language"

If I cannot appreciate a language, it has more to do with my own ignorance than anything else, so I should not go about imposing my views on others... tolerance and learning are very important.

I can say that some particular language is more classical or greater than others, but that should not be a cause for me being fanatical about it... we didnt choose languages at birth... so there is no point harping about one's mother tongue.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

srkris,

I stayed out of the sangeetham.com storm (wisely perhaps (;-)). While I dont necessarily agree with all the arguments that were made against your view-points, I just felt that your line of argument (which has valid points):
(a) is easier to make from your side of the argument (i.e. from someone who is perfectly fine with the current use of language in cm).
(b) does not address the fact that cm history in the past 300 years and more importantly even in the 20th century indicates a certain preferential treatment for telugu/sanskrit. Now this has been "explained" post-mortem using linguistics - i just dont buy it. If you remember i argued this a lot on sangeetham - dont want to rehash.

So what about people who have (b) in mind and are asking for more inclusion in CM? What about the belief that a composition in tamizh (or say kannaDa) would have "more to prove" to reach an "elevated" status in concert platform compared to many telugu/sanskrit kritis who have reached that stage (there are social parallels you can draw here (:-)). What if the not-so-uncommon belief that "there are not enough weighty compositions in xyz language - if there were any we would have seen them already" is flawed because works of composers in that language have not been exposed/evaluated enough because of (b) above?

Can one still use your line of argument against this? Cant we atleast acknowledge (b) and suggest a way to be inclusionary? I rarely see this when cm language discussions happen.

If language truly is no barrier for music (i actually do believe that), then wouldnt it be true that the same divine cm can be made in other south indian languages too if the composer is a genius? Can I then boldly suggest that what people need is "proof" so to speak but they want to see it in a "natural" way as opposed to "forced" (although the playing field is not level, and it didnt get this way "naturally" - a cruel twist).

So I think the only way any change can happen is from the artists themselves. They have to present what they think is concert-worthy and let the cm world judge. They may be wrong in some cases, but may be right in others. Instead of that just creating some sort of pressure to make the artists to perform in a certain language (which is what that sangeetham.com thread seemed to be going towards) seems wrong. That is contrived.

But frankly the damage has been done and it is quite permanent. Where are the artists going to learn "new" compositions? How brave will they be to risk this? How many will even have the urge to do this? How do they know of the merits of "unknown" works? I know Ravikiran does this with OVK, thats a start, but I dont see too many other projects like that. And thanks to people like SSI, if there any "budding" genius-composers in our time (which most cm rasikas would blindly assume as an impossibility forever into the future), they have zero support to compose. In fact, there is enough "peer pressure" to not compose anything new.

Do not get me wrong, I actually do enjoy CM in all its glory in its current form in concerts. Among the known tamizh compositions, the percentage that is concert worthy (as main/sub-main items) is definitely much smaller than those in telugu/sanskrit. IMO, this is because of the number of geniuses who have composed in telugu/sanskrit. But i really believe that there may be many more compositions in other south indian languages which have never seen the light of day. What frustrates me is the very very common lament and gripe from people about trinity compositions not sung or becoming extinct - but these people dont spare a single thought for composers majority of whose works have gone ignored. I wish they would lament for both.

Arun.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Arun,
So what about people who have (b) in mind and are asking for more inclusion in CM? What about the belief that a composition in tamizh (or say kannaDa) would have "more to prove" to reach an "elevated" status in concert platform compared to many telugu/sanskrit kritis who have reached that stage
That Telugu and Sanskrit have found better acceptance in CM, at-least in the last 300 years is an undeniable fact. It probably is also true that these languages have "shaped" most of what we see as CM today. These languages do not have their own musical system, whereas Tamil has had its own musical activity dating back perhaps even to the Sangam periods or beyond. I dont certainly see why a language with such hoary traditions needs to fight for its place in CM. CM has perhaps all along been mainly a pro-telugu, pro-sanskrit genre, though not necessarily against other languages. Tamil can develop on its own parallel classical music system right?
Can one still use your line of argument against this? Cant we atleast acknowledge (b) and suggest a way to be inclusionary?
You will agree that Tamil has never had it better than in the present. You see a higher concentration of mainstream musicians singing Tamil kritis than at any time in the past. The situation is improving. One way to accelerate this development would be to make the musicians learn more Tamil kritis... it's the gurus who can make a difference here. It is not mainly a conscious attempt by musicians to avoid Tamil. It is more a case of ignorance than malice.
But frankly the damage has been done and it is quite permanent. Where are the artists going to learn "new" compositions? How brave will they be to risk this? How many will even have the urge to do this?
Favoritism is definitely something that cannot be ruled out at any time. Personally I favour Sanskrit, even though I dont know it much. I guess it's because I believe the scope of expression in Sanskrit is immense when compared to other languages. We have to also face the reality that certain languages are more suitable for certain kinds of music, so I wouldn't feel the same way if CM is sung in Punjabi or Arabic, merely due to the existence of several CM songs in those languages. I feel Tamil is a language with hard consonants, that makes it a bit unpalpable for graceful expression and a free flow of music. Of course I might be wrong or just plain biased, and you are welcome to correct me.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Chembai and Others: I have been so inefficient in communicating my idea, so please bear with me when I try again: my initial questions were not about the superiority or appropriateness of songs in any one language in CM, but rather, 'do songs in any one language move you more than those in others, and if so, why?'
Reading the posts and sometimes in between the lines it seems that Kulkarni, Meena and you love songs in any language, and it is the 'language' of music that is more important to you. And if I can extrapolate even further (a slippery slope, I know), you may even prefer sanskrit for its felicity of expression. Correct me if I am wrong.
Personally, while pure music moves me, there are times when the language of the composition moves me even more. It is one the many reasons why MSS is my favorite singer: I can understand the words that she sings. I get goose bumps when she sings 'mAra janakan, karuNAlayan, anbar thunbam agala mangaLam aruLvAn', or when she, with her voice makes me feel that vaLLi is looking all around in hesitation, when she sings 'nAlu puram nOkki, nAdi nAn yAr ingu vandhadhenrEn?'. Similarly, I am in total agreement with the composer when I hear 'mErO man hAr liyO jAnakI ramaNvA', or when mIrA explains who has captured her heart: 'kOi kahE srI rAm hai kyA? yA gowrI, kALI maiyA?' (someone says/asks if it is Sri Ram, or Gowri, or Kali ma?)- she replies: 'mein kahoon nahIn, gOpAl hai woh ik, ban mE charAvE gayyAn' (and I say, Oh No! He is just a cowherd who grazes cattle in the forrest!). Similarly, I also feel that MDs compositions are beautiful: phrases such as 'EkAmrEsha grihEshwari shankari' or 'panchabANAri prANa priya saKI' are so deceptively simple, but at the same time, a pefect fit in the composition both poetically and musically.
Therefore, to me, each and every language is beautiful, if I can understand it. That is why sometimes, I have trouble appreciating the true beauty of compositions in telugu or even kannada. There are many others who feel the same way: my daughter's dance teacher grew up in Bombay and Delhi, and is very comfortable with hindi: of all the thillAnAs that she has choreographed, she loves BMKs, because they 'dance spontaneously' (her words, not mine!)...despite this she 'loves' Swathi Thirunal's DHanasrI thillAnA the best, because it is in hindi! So, this issue is not a 'black and white' issue at all.
Ravi

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Yeah, this is the wrong topic to give the views I gave, but I did that because arun asked specifically.

Coming back to the topic of the thread, there is no denying the fact that one's mother tongue always sounds better due to better understanding leading consequently to greater appeal. But it is a personal preference, and should not come to the level where demands are placed on singers. This, of course, is just my opinion.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

I could not agree more Chembai...I was just asking for very personal preferences! I have to 'fess up that it is only of late that I have learnt to appreciate songs in Tamizh, which is possibly my mother tongue. I say 'possibly' because one of the definitions of 'mother-tongue' is the language of your dreams, and Tamizh is certainly not the language of my dreams (pun intended!). Even so, I understand only those composed in easy or colloquial Tamizh. The language of Kamban and Valluvar which sends my father into raptures usually leaves me unmoved because I need simultaneous translation! Even Andal is tough in spots: but I understand, and therefore, love Sivan, Bharati, Kunjara Bharati, Koteshwara Iyer, Ambujam Krishna, and Kalki...
Ravi

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I was about to reply to srkris/chembai, but will not as it is tangential to the topic.

Coming back to topic, I say I like krithis more based on musical merit than anything else. Even for krithis in languages I dont understand (telugu, sanskrit), I can appreciate some obvious (to layman) poetic merits but that is a much smaller factor. Also, as for as the effect of the meaning of lyrics, it may be because I am not very very religious, but maybe more because I dont know the languages, but it so far has not been a big factor in attracting me to krithis.

But if a krithi scores on musical merit, that *alone* may be enough for me irrespective of the language, and meaning. If I get moved by a krithi, it has to do most with the raga and some to do with how the raga combines with meaning (even if the meaning is something i know from a translation only).

For CM krithis in tamizh which I understand, the poetic merits, lyrical merits so far has never outweighed the musical merits. So that could explain why among all the krithis I am exposed to in CM, I dont seem to show any partiality to tamizh krithis just because I can relate to the lyrics better.

At the risk of being too frank, the lyrical meaning of most CM krithis seem to revolve around same "topic" (i.e bhakthi) - and so for some reason I have a hard time identifying something as "special" in that area (note: i am talking about meaning and not about poetic value). Now one can definitely say that for telugu/sanskrit that may be because I cant appreciate inner meaning, or true connotation of lyrics. But there are many krithis in tamiz with very similar meaning, which I understand, and i feel the same way. It is quite possible that I am just not deep enough to be moved by bhakthi alone, that i need the musical element to be a much much higher factor. If so, I will accept that as my failing.

This is somewhat embarassing but even in tamizh film songs, WM rock songs, there are many instances where a song's lyrics have attracted me to the song more (although i still look for high musical value). In CM the cases have been lower - probably because I cant relate to telugu and sanskrit as much.

Arun

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Arun,
This is somewhat embarassing but even in tamizh film songs, WM rock songs, there are many instances where a song's lyrics have attracted me to the song more (although i still look for high musical value). In CM the cases have been lower - probably because I cant relate to telugu and sanskrit as much.
Why is it embarassing? I love some of songs of the 'Dixie Chicks', Carpenters (esp. 'I'm on top of the world looking down on creation') and numerous Broadway and Hollywood musicals because the lyrics entice me.
At the risk of being too frank, the lyrical meaning of most CM krithis seem to revolve around same "topic" (i.e bhakthi) - and so for some reason I have a hard time identifying something as "special" in that area (note: i am talking about meaning and not about poetic value). Now one can definitely say that for telugu/sanskrit that may be because I cant appreciate inner meaning, or true connotation of lyrics. But there are many krithis in tamiz with very similar meaning, which I understand, and i feel the same way. It is quite possible that I am just not deep enough to be moved by bhakthi alone, that i need the musical element to be a much much higher factor. If so, I will accept that as my failing.
This is tangential, BUT here are some observations, some more tongue-in-cheek than others:
Not all Tamizh songs revolve around Bhakti: the padhams, yArukkAgilum BayamEn, nidhirayil, or even idhuvum sholluvAL, all have very earthy/erotic tones to them. Even 'thiruvottriyUr tyAgEsan' is not all about divine love in my opinion. Kavi Kunjara Bharathi's 'ippadi allo vandhu nikka vEndum yen munnE' is a very 'naughty' song. Many of Bharatiyar's songs are NOT on Bhakti (shuttum izhi shudar thAn...does it actually promote pre-marital kissing?), and my favorite Bharatidasan composition (in my opinion the only one that can really be sung, as opposed to the others that can be recited, but are too difficult to swallow in the musical idiom) 'thunbam nErgayil' is not on Bhakti. Are you aware of songs in Telugu (majority are the Saint's) that are not on Bhakti? Tyagaraja's songs can be loosely classified into his entreaties to Rama, Bhakta Mahima (his comps on Sita, Hanuman, Lakshmana and Gauruda are in this category), music as Bhakti, nindhA of greed and prevailing practices and urging his mind to stay true to Rama. All of these are Bhakti themes. Am I missing something here? Once again, it is the padhams and jAvaLIs that bring earthy hues to CM songs in this language: 'parulanna mAta' has a very suggestive theme. I am sure that the same is true of Kannada. Never heard of padhams or jAvaLIs in sanskrit! In fact, songs that I have heard in CM concerts/recordings in languages other than Tamizh have all revolved around the Bhakti theme. In Tamizh, especially in DKP/DKJs concerts, or Vijaya Siva's one can at least hope to hear songs on socialistic themes like feeding the masses in the tukkada section! ('thani oruvanukku uNavu illai yenil jagaththinai azhiththiduvOm!)
Ravi

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ravi,

"Embarassed" (may be too strong) because I cannot find enough "equivalents" in cm which I picked up *later* (and as a result i dont listen to wm or tamizh film songs much at all now). Somehow I tend to conclude my level of appreciation of cm is "not deep enough" (:-).

Also, perhaps i should have spelled this out, but i was referring to krithis and perhaps subconsciously not thinking of the "so-called" thukkadas. In other words, i was thinking mainly of heavy-weights in a cm concert. (although in dance, the pada varnam is the heavyweight and it is sringara based often)

W.r.t telugu/sanskrit works that arent bhakthi related:
I think ksetragna's (sp?) padams are very erotic and they are in telugu - there are others for sure. You also have ashtapati's (ok maybe not necessarily written for cm) which are also erotic (albeit with krishna as the hero) which are in Sanskrit.

But the trinity, and post-trinity "major" composers all used bhakthi as their overwhelmingly predominant theme. Tyagaraja does include philosophy and way of life as a constant "sub-theme" but always within the context of bhakthi.

Arun

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Coming back to the topic of the thread, there is no denying the fact that one's mother tongue always sounds better due to better understanding leading consequently to greater appeal.
Not always so. I prefer to listen to Telugu/Sanskrit kritis by leading composers, rather than Tamil (my mother tongue) ones. I listen more to the raga/tala elements than the lyrics/meaning. But then that's just me I guess.
<<by the way, i think we covered some of these same sentiments in the 'Tyranny of sahityam' thread :)>>
Last edited by jayaram on 24 Nov 2006, 21:09, edited 1 time in total.

pushparag60
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Post by pushparag60 »

அன்புடன்
If a musician sings in his/her mother tongue, or thorough with the language, he/she adds colour to it; the reason could be the meaning is understood by them; bhavaa are exhibited.
I heard abhangs by South Indian artists born in North,
sing better than others, like wise many kirthanas in Kannada, telugu, etc.
Likewise I hear many Tamil stalwarts of yesteryears- like Sirkaazhi, Madurai Somu, and also even today when they sing tamil keerthanas, they handle it with ease.
But raagas are universal language and the singers mother tongue or profiency in the language it is written is an added advantage.
My humble submission before the elite members

jeyasri 86
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Post by jeyasri 86 »

i want composition for kurai ondrum illai song

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vageyakara
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Post by vageyakara »

Hallo VK Ji, the site mis not workable.Is it meant for a short duration, or is it down loadable

pvr246
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Post by pvr246 »

Well as the main discussion is about the language inlfluencing the expression of the kriti but it seems that the discussion got deviated.

When it comes to thyagaraja or shyama sastri or dikshitar. They are first saints and they used music to express their thoughts of advaitha and bhakti.
so if anyone wants a special enjoyment out of carnatic music ignoring the bhakti aspect of it i think carnatic music is not going to help you.
well every one have freedom to enjoy music i know many people who just like the music of thyagaraja they are not bothered about the meaning behind it
so this proves that they are just seeing a music director in thyagaraja who makes good music and diverts ones mind for some time.But these compositions of the great composers are not targeted to improve music or to find new tunes.

And when it comes to language - people approach CM for different reasons.
-1.some approach it beacuse their parents like CM
-2.some may approach it because they like music (just the music behind the kritis)
-3.But some approach it for bhakti ( These are the people actually thyagaraja kritis targeted to)

1.In the case of first kind they may find bhakti or music (just music) in the kritis.
2.In the second case- These are the people who prefer to listen chitte swara or the swara behind the wordings
Well they enjoy it and the next step is to find out the meaning of the wordings here comes the language issue
if the language is their mother tongue then they feel comfortable and if i am a telugu guy and listen to
jagadaanandakaaraka i think that thyagaraja is praying to some one who gives happiness to the whole world
and if i am a tamil guy i fell difficulty in understanding and some how refer to the meaning and think that it would have been
written in tamil (viceversa telugu).
So the this complaining about the language is the problem of these second kind of people who's target is not spirituality or bhakti.
so the conclusion is that i dont find difference in both people (telugu amd tamil guy) they just understood the meaning of jagadaananda kaaraka
they didnt achieve anything else.
3.Now the third kind of person this person is the bhakta who dont have his own language who enjoyes the music but his main target is bhakti
This fellows perspective towards the kirtan is completely different. He dont complain about the language and finds the meaning of each and every word of the kriti and enjoys the bhava(expression) experienced by thyagaraja or shyama sastri or dikshitar.
he learns sanskrit and tamil telugu and kannada and finds what he wants in those kirtans, thats bhakti

So my sincere request is that please dont have that prejudice towards any language these kirtans target neither music or language.
And person who approaches a kirtan with this perspective satisfies his thust in the river(CM) In what ever LANGUAGE he listens.

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

I like CM because it is melodious and mellifluous; I feel I can sing along; No other thoughts penetrate when I sing; If a CM is more attractive in another raagam, I am for it. Being multilingual, CM/Hindusthani/Bhajan/Abhang have equal impact in my approach. I am considered outsider by those who play anthAkshari in movie songs.

rasika_avishesha
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Post by rasika_avishesha »

I feel that the Daasa Sahitya in Kannada has the best combination of both refined musicology and the highest level of Bhakti.

Purandara Dasa started out to spread the message of Bhakti among people, and that was his main aim in developing Karnatic music. His compositions range from the sweet and simple to the rich and intricate, but all the while never forgetting the element of Bhakti and spirituality. That's why his songs sung in whatever raaga never bore me.

On the other hand, later composers ( the trinity etc) may have been Bhaktas, but they were primarily "professional" musicians, and they were obliged to compose newer and more complicated melodies for entertainment. Personally, I feel such music is cold. It is more calculative than spontaneous and emotive. And the lyrics for such songs are not born out of some deep personal ethos, but rather more mechanical.

This is my personal view. I don't intend offense to anyone.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

rasika_avishesha wrote:On the other hand, later composers ( the trinity etc) may have been Bhaktas, but they were primarily "professional" musicians, and they were obliged to compose newer and more complicated melodies for entertainment.
Is this just your personal feeling, or do you have evidence to support this claim?

srikant1987
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Post by srikant1987 »


srikant1987
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Post by srikant1987 »

>>That's why his songs sung in whatever raaga never bore me.<<

That's very surprising to me, because I think that there should definitely be a correlation between the music and the lines of a song. Therefore, I like kA vA kandA vA in varALi, because to me varALi is linked to fear (hence kA), however I don't like tattvamaRiya taramA from the same composer, because the anupallavi contains very harsh words (used by the composer on himself), where as rIti gauLa in general (and the anupallavi's music in particular) are brisk and merry.

Similarly, I like so many of OVK's songs, but because tODi doesn't seem suited for humour, tAyE yashOda isn't my favourite.

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Srikant:

tAyE yaSOdA is not an attempt at humor - it is part of a set of songs (at least a trilogy) - the gOpI's complain in tODI (through tAyE yaSOdA), krishNA defends himself in mOhanam (through illai illai illai ammA), and yaSOdA's judgement is given in hindOLam (IIRC this is through pESAdE pONgaLaDI).

rasika_avishesha
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Post by rasika_avishesha »

rshankar wrote:
rasika_avishesha wrote:On the other hand, later composers ( the trinity etc) may have been Bhaktas, but they were primarily "professional" musicians, and they were obliged to compose newer and more complicated melodies for entertainment.
Is this just your personal feeling, or do you have evidence to support this claim?
Well, it is entirely my personal opinion, based on what info I have gathered to date. I may be wrong and I'll try to gather more accurate info, with your help also.

koyaliya
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Joined: 27 Apr 2009, 23:01

Post by koyaliya »

So many thoughts - I hope I don’t get too caught up in words here ;)

as some of the posts above say, wouldn't you agree there has to be a collaboration of music and words for a song to move you? Music alone is a language, yes, and can be very moving if you choose to be moved.
Just as poetry (lyrics ‘without music’) can be very moving if you choose to be moved.

But, and I guess this is only my opinion, the most soulful music seems to be music where the melody is representative of the lyrics and vice versa. Think onomatopoeia.
An example - I hear the line ‘koyaliya, koyaliya, koyaliya’ in ‘hari avan ki avaz’ and I think of a cute little bird jumping from branch to branch and I feel affection :)
The affection I feel resonates off of how I feel about my little niece, and then it deepens. (therefore, being moved is a combination of melody, lyrics, meaning, personal experience?)

So on top of the music-lyric collaboration, whether a song moves me or not depends on the mood I am in. On top of that, it depends on how many times I have heard the song already. On top of that, it depends on how new or ‘classic’ the concept/meaning of the lyrics is"¦

Further, a decade ago I might have said that choosing one language over another is to have a narrow perspective and to be closed-minded to ‘other cultures.’ Today I wonder if being too broad-minded can lead to too much confusion, less focus and therefore less impact. I waver back and forth between the two positions at any given time.

To sum it up"¦ even just thinking to myself about which language I would choose opens up a pandora’s box of sub-questions. To answer with a straight ‘tamil’ or ‘sanskrit’ or ‘telugu’ or ‘hindi’ would be an oversimplification.

rajesh_rs
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 11:18

Post by rajesh_rs »

Between Telugu and Sanskrit, I have somehow liked the Sanskrit songs better. Especially, for a phase, Muttuswami Deekshithar's compositions over Thyagaraja's.

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Rendition style and words move the listener and the renderer if both understand the meaning and get involved emotionally.

gobilalitha
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Post by gobilalitha »

Both'Main nahin makhan khao' and 'Taye Yasodha ' move your hearts , though in different languages. gobilalitha

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