What is it that keeps the country down...

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature

cmlover
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#27 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 17 May 2014, 20:01

VK
My relative bought a house in Chennai for 70K sterling.
He simply kept it locked for five years but cleaning (Rs 200 per month) and paying the taxes.
He recently sold it for 135K sterling (Net after paying 30% income tax) and took the money to UK.
Of course he had to pay Rs 50,000 (under the table :D ) to get a repatriation certificate!

I rest my case!
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cmlover
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#28 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 17 May 2014, 21:02

ADMK's 37/39 win may prove to be a Pyrrhic victory.
While it may boost the pride and image of J it is unlikely to be productive since She will be outside the decision making apparatus of the Govt. A clever ChaNakya MuKa would always worked his way into the ruling authority capturing control of key ministries.
Of course his was a selfish strategy.
If J had joined the BJP team she could have even gotten a Deputy Prime Minister role in the Govt.
Unfortunately the spirit of secularism is a bugbear in TN politics. However that secularism card did not help DMK or Congress. As time passes J in spite of her close friendship with Modi is likely to be frustrated unable to implement useful plans without Central support from the ministries controlled by other state members.

Pride goes before a Fall!
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venkatakailasam
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#29 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by venkatakailasam » 17 May 2014, 21:58

Karunanithi Iyengar

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vasanthakokilam
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#30 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by vasanthakokilam » 17 May 2014, 22:30

CML, there is no case there. It is just a monetary transaction that involved a property. So he paid 70K to one indian and took 135K from another Indian. All under free will and all three are happy. That is the same net cash flow as an Indian buying 65K sterling ( the profit ) something from U.K.

When India had poor dollar reserves, one can say this is a net drain on that. But what is forgotten is that shortage was a result of restrictive policies on capital movement. Once that movement was liberalized, the reserve problem also disappeared. One wonders why! ;)
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venkatakailasam
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#31 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by venkatakailasam » 17 May 2014, 22:58

My understanding of FDI is that if a foreign compony invests in India say, 140 million,
And makes a profit of 30% vis4.2 million annually… and a dividend is declared, this can be repatriated freely subject to a Tax rate of around 40% on profit…
While it will have certain drawbacks, it also has scores be benefits also..
The new government seem to have approved its implementation..
The out flow is much less than the inflow of capital…
And a sizable returns of profit accrues to Indian Government..
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cmlover
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#32 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 17 May 2014, 23:12

But VK I don't understand the logic! The extra 65k is drained from India. If there are a large number of such transactions (which indeed is true since there is lack of capital for investment among Local Indians) the country gets poorer. For example Walmart entering the retail business can wipe out small enterpreneurs and siphon the wealth of the country all abroad!
The foreign money so invested is purely speculative and do not produce any tangible benefit to the country unlike China which encourages only capital investments to build industries and no speculative real estate investments..
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vasanthakokilam
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#33 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by vasanthakokilam » 18 May 2014, 02:03

CML, I do not want to bring in Walmart since that brings in additional variables.

Thinking of that 65K as a drain causes stagnation.

I offered the example of an Indian buying a U.K. good costing 65K to show that it is also a "drain" (outflow).
So what are we going to do, ban Indians from buying stuff from other countries? I know India had that kind of an inclination using great sounding words like 'Self reliance etc.'' to justify such hellish policies. If every country does this, the whole international trade will come to a screeching halt and depression of mammoth proportions will ensue.

Let us look at the money flow logic which will reveal what is going on.

An Indian buying something worth 65K from England feels better psychologically since something tangible comes back to India. In the case of your relative, it is not that straightforward but the equation is the same. The Indian who sold it for 70K to your relative caused the 65K outflow 5 years later. What did the seller gain from it? A lot. He got the cash now instead of 5 years later, that liquidity is important to him and also to the general economy. Thus there are the tangible and intangible benefits now for which your relative got "paid" 65K. But not right away, but 5 years later. There is also a risk. That outflow could have been much less
which adds to the risk premium that is expected.

In the first case, money went from India to England and the benefits flowed in the other direction at around the same time.

In the second case, the benefits accrued first and the money went from India to England 5 years later. In essence, the seller 'shorted' it to your relative. In 'shorting' selling happens first, buying happens later. I know it is a bit counter intuitive but that is what it is.

But in common parlance the first transaction is called 'spending' ( current account ) and the second
transaction is called 'investing'. ( capital account ). That is the technical distinction between spending and investing. From a money flow perspective that is a distinction with out a difference.

======
Economic systems are complex systems and you can not try to comprehend it with just looking at only a few parameters. These economic systems are by its very nature incredibly feedback driven. I am sure you understand what I mean there. Feedback driven systems are puzzling, counter intutive and not a rigorous science yet because humantity has not completely mastered the analysis of such systems.

Quite interestingly people who are fully participating 'agents' in the system act with incomplete knowledge. That affects the functioning of the system itself which is another level of feedback at work. So, even if a fully working model is somehow developed, it will work only if a vast number of people also make decisions based on that model. Since that is not realistic, the model itself has to account for people not knowing that model.

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Given such a beast, experience has shown that freer markets that does not hinder the flow of money and goods work much better. It does not mean such markets are with out flaws and does not have major pain points. But experience has shown over the past century that is better than the restrictive policies. It also taught us what definitely is road to hell even if paved with good intentions. India is slowly getting out of the latter over the past 20+ years. If India has to behave like a mature country and participate as a first class citizen among others which it definitely deserves to be, its policies have to modernized. It is happening and we should not go back to the old ways.

I think Manmohan Singh did the right things early on and the convertibility policies were slowly introduced and pegged to improvements in key economic performance matrices. That is absolutely the right thing to do. Otherwise there will be too much shock to the system which can cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. He is a smart man and he knew how this kind of systems work. But having gotten to a comfortable level and panic has subsided and real growth happened, the very policies that got us this far were not continuously improved even at snail's pace. It looks like Modi government leans towards such less restrictive economic policies. We will see what they do.
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cmlover
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#34 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 18 May 2014, 03:47

VK
Spoken like a true Capitalist.
China however did not follow that road to prosperity!
Several European countries too have fallen by the roadside following that primrose path to damnation.. Greece, Spain etc.,
Capitalism leads to concentration of wealth in a few hands. It is not compatible with a large poor population like India where the rich have become richer and the poor poorer! Singh's open market policies have been a disaster with high inflation and high cost of living. J's policy of freebies is no solution either. India cannot become US by imitation. Now a period of belt-tightening is needed for recovery. Trust Modi will be wise and follow an appropriate home-made policy.
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VK RAMAN
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#35 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by VK RAMAN » 18 May 2014, 04:10

Majority Indians in India hate U.S but they like the $ and they like to imitate. So Democracy by name will turn to Oligarchy in India. People are conditioned to whatever life they can afford and or whatever government servants want the population to follow. There is no certain easy way to change Indian economy, but to go through painful cuts and balances. Unlikely it will happen.
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vasanthakokilam
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#36 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by vasanthakokilam » 18 May 2014, 05:02

China is much more free market than you paint it to be. They sneakily moved to a more open economy while still keeping tighter control on the political side. I do not think we want India to go there, we have to do what we have to do and not lament the fact India is not as authoritarian as China. In fact, what I wanted to write earlier is China is a competition for India in the game of nations and China is hurrying to liberalize the currency further. What I wrote about India acting like a mature economy is applicable to China as well. They are going to be an economic super power and it will look ridiculous if they "manage" the currency like they do now. It has already created so much artificial distortion.

Anyway India is not China so India has to find its own path. But it is an undisputed fact that China's rise as an economic super power is a direct result of it loosening the draconian tight controls and allowing for a free-er economic system. The rather odd thing is China uses its authoritarian controls to make the free economy flow by willy nilly blow past any hurdles without any due process. Such things India can not do and should not do.

Funny you are arguing for the failed policies of the past. May be you will tweak such policies. Why bother? Quoting a few instances where free market could not solve issues or in some cases caused them is not any reason to abandon it. Because the alternatives are much worse.

BTW, I am not arguing that India should follow the U.S. model. But saying that a country with poor people can not afford free markets is a failed notion which is what kept India back for 4 or 5 decades. License Raj as an infrastructural principle is just disgusting and an abomination. What were they thinking? That you can conquer an economic beast by putting it in a cage? Only thing they can do with such a thing is to kill it which they almost did. And they always quote the poor as an excuse for all that. That is a complete disservice to the poor.
Why should some Mr. Know All be given the power to decide that there shall be no more than N scooters produced per year? That is all incredibly ridiculous.

Fortunately people have more freedom there than before.

I do not intend flog a dead horse but restrictions of that sort is what terrifies me when we talk of going back to restrictive policies.

The argument against a free-er system should not be to associate it with its extreme version and scare people with FUD. There is quite a wide spectrum to operate on.
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cmlover
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#37 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 18 May 2014, 05:36

VK
Here is a puzzle for you.
Two countires in Free Market A and B
Country A has dollar currency and buys and sells Rupees at 50 per dollar.
Country B has Rupee currency and buys and sells dollar for 60 rupees.
No restrictions on travel between the countries.
A speculator from A goes to B with 5 dollars and exchanges it for 300 rupees.
He comes back to A and exchanges 300 rupees for 6 dollars.
He pockets 1 dollar and starts again the same transaction.
Ignore travel costs etc.,
Very soon he became a millionnaire.
Where did his wealth come from?

Even today you can sell dollars for extra cash in India and change back rupees to dollars (if you are a politician :) !
That is free economy for you.....
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vasanthakokilam
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#38 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by vasanthakokilam » 18 May 2014, 06:07

CML, there is no puzzle at all, even though it may be puzzling. You are thinking he is acting independent of the system and the system is not affected by his actions. His very actions will cause the markets to become efficient and take out any such inefficiencies. Because if there is such easy money to be made, a lot of people will do it which will create enough supply and demand for the relative currencies until doing so is not profitable. That is the new equilibrium condition.

What he is doing is called arbitrage. And the side effect of arbitrage is the elimination of arbitrage.

I love your example because it illustrates how markets work. Without any silly authority to set where the rates should be, the market finds its own level. This happens millions of times every day in the currency markets.
To put in a different way, the market participants make sure no one can make such easy money. Not because the participants do not like making easy money but when there is a little imbalance they all swoop in there to take advantage of it which results in that advantage going away.
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cmlover
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#39 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 18 May 2014, 06:20

OK! I learned a new term!
Here is a glimpse of Modi's economic policy...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 693557.cms
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cmlover
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#40 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 19 May 2014, 06:50

I was listening to CNN comments on Modi becoming PM of India.
They were discussing the denial of US Visa to Modi earlier and now the situation has changed.
They were condescending to say that some sort of apology is needed (though Modi was given a clean bill) on the issue of the massacre of muslims.
It was stated that Modi should strive to maintain good relations with US for economc survival and progress of India..
What arrogance and hypocracy....
I hope Modi will teach them a lesson soon...
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venkatakailasam
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#41 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by venkatakailasam » 20 May 2014, 11:31

Image

Spend 2 mins to read this and I am sure you will respect him

"YOU COULD BE SHAMELESS, I AM NOT ..!!! " Lines by Ratan Tata.

Few months after 26/11, Taj group of Hotels owned by TATAs launched their biggest tender ever for remodeling
all their Hotels in India and abroad. Some of the companies who applied for that tender were also Pakistanis.
To make their bid stronger, two big industrialists from Pakistan visited Bombay House ( Head office of Tata ) in
Mumbai without an appointment to meet up with Ratan Tata since he was not giving them any prior appointment.
They were made to sit at the reception of Bombay house and after a few hours a message was conveyed to them that
Ratan Tata is busy and can not meet anyone without an appointment.
Frustrated, these two Pakistani industrialists went to Delhi and thru their High Commission met up with a Minister.
The minister immediately called up Ratan Tata requesting him to meet up with the two Pakistanis Industrialists and
consider their tender "enthusiastically ly".

Ratan Tata replied..."you could be shameless, I am not" and put the
phone down.

Few months later when Pakistani government placed an order of Tata Sumo's to be imported into Pakistan,
Ratan Tata refused to ship a single vehicle to that country. This is the respect and love for motherland that Ratan
Tata has. Something that our current Politicians should learn from. Hatts off to you sir..


Awake Country men, the Nation is above everything else
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venkatakailasam
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#42 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by venkatakailasam » 05 Jun 2014, 17:48

Image

Who sprayed fire in the sky..
Blue red and diamond in color..
Making the night in to a day for a while..
Inviting a new era to arrive..
Bringing hopes to multitudes and strive
For a better future and peace around…
With Honesty in thoughts and deed
Saying Adieu to the era that has gone by
Carrying with it thoughts that are evil in nature
And, deeds that brought misery to all…
venkat k
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cmlover
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#43 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 05 Jun 2014, 20:33

Is this just a coincidence that in 1947, we had Independence from British rule and now in 2014,we are going to get Independence again from the corrupt and dictatorship type of government of Congress Party. !!!!!

The Calendar of 1947 and 2014 are the same
Even the phases of the moon are the same
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VK RAMAN
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#44 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by VK RAMAN » 05 Jun 2014, 20:59

Very Interesting Observation cmlover.
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Nick H
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#45 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by Nick H » 05 Jun 2014, 21:01

Yes. It is just a coincidence, CML. I wonder, though, how often a calendar layout of days and dates does repeat? I would have guesses that moon phases occurring on the same dates as well would be pretty rare? ***
"YOU COULD BE SHAMELESS, I AM NOT ..!!! " Lines by Ratan Tata.
Asuming this is true, and not one of those reformable stories that float, in different versions, around the internet...

So he sold all the group's business interests in Pakistan then, right? I don't think so. Nor have I respected Tata group since that business with the farmland in Bengal that the farmers got a mere pittance for. Actually, not since that awful Indica I used to own. :)


***EDIT. The repeating dates is not nearly as rare as I thought. Of course, Google has lots of answers, but here's one with some numbers to play with. I used to photo-typeset calendar blocks, and I did have combinations that I re-used with changed months, but I never thought of the patterns in it. I was always dumb at numbers.
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cmlover
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#46 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 05 Jun 2014, 22:39

Actually for a non leap year if the first of Jan coincide on the same day then the rest of the year automatically follow. Same is true for leap years as a group. But the phases of moon need not coincide, that is a rarity!
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Nick H
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#48 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by Nick H » 05 Jun 2014, 23:43

cmlover wrote:Actually for a non leap year if the first of Jan coincide on the same day then the rest of the year automatically follow. Same is true for leap years as a group. But the phases of moon need not coincide, that is a rarity!
it seems... 6, 11, or 28 years
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cmlover
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#49 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 06 Jun 2014, 07:21

It depends on the Metonic Cycle.
The Greeks knew that even around 400 B.C.
But they did not know the effects of Perturbations on earth's orbit.
We know a lot these days with increasing precision...
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cmlover
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#50 Re: What is it that keeps the country down...

Post by cmlover » 06 Jun 2014, 07:27

Sureshvv
That is very disconcerting :(
Where is Bharat headed?
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