nAsadIya sUktaM (Hymn of creation)

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 28 Jun 2006, 23:23

But I disagree completely that it was a closely-guarded secret of the brAhmaNas. We have many parts of the RgvEda compiled by non-brahmans(Even SUdras). It is a myth perpetuated by some groups with vested interests that the masses were deprived of this knowledge by the "Priests". Thank God, some of the "priests" had the sanity to cherish and save this beautiful and priceless language for posterity.

I did not use the term "closely guarded" in the sense of "a few brahmans hanging on to Vedic like it was a secret". This idea was introduced into the discussion by srkris. I have clarified what I meant when I said Vedic was "invented" by a relatively small group of people (I do not know about the castes of those persons). The Rgveda does not mention the "caste" of all the rishis. However, we do know that definitely by the classical age the brahmans were the ones mainly associated with Vedic Sanskrit and thus would have played an important role in contracting it to classical Sanskrit as well as introducing Sanskrit into other languages.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jun 2006, 23:57

DRS
The pancha dravida would refer to
Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Dravida(Tamil Nadu and Kerala) and Andhra Pradesh. see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravida

It will be difficult to demonstrate the penetration of prakrit in the distinctly southern languages while the sanskrit terms were easily assimilated! The urdu/persian influence is clearly observable in the Northern languages. Is there evidence of muslim penetration in Kannada after the reign of Tippu Sultan. The malayalam (naadan) of north kerala shows substantial muslim influence and several arabic words have been assimilated. Tamil is distinct in this respect that it never got 'arabised' while it easily got 'anglicised'.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Jun 2006, 00:17

CML,
There is persian influence in all Indian languages esp. colloquial. I was recently watching hindi news in one channel...they use khabar instead of samaachar. In places like Hyd, people use Urdu words while speaking Telugu-including my dad and mom...

and it sounds very funny. Their telugu isnt perfect either.
I have heard that some novelists in recent times use them. I have no reference though.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 29 Jun 2006, 00:38

It will be difficult to demonstrate the penetration of prakrit in the distinctly southern languages while the sanskrit terms were easily assimilated! T

Wrong CML. The influence of prAkrita on the South Indian languages(All of them) is well established and very substantial. A lot of sanskrit terms have passed into our vocabulary only through prakrit.

Is there evidence of muslim penetration in Kannada after the reign of Tippu Sultan.

As Suji Ram has already pointed, a lot of Persian and Arabic words have entered our vocabulary, with regards to Administrative terms. We see this in Tamizh also. But this is seen maximum in Telugu and Malayalam. Not surprising as the Nawabs ruled Hyderabad and a substantila part of AP. In fact the Telugu word for News is "khabar"(On Television.)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Jun 2006, 00:46

The "Telugu" word for news is Khaburlu. Sometimes it refers to gossip :cheesy:

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 29 Jun 2006, 00:49

The "Telugu" word for news is Khaburlu. Sometimes it refers to gossip :cheesy:

Which is the plural of khabaru.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 29 Jun 2006, 02:46

CML

With respect to the Pancha Dravida, they may not exactly correspond to the linguistic states which we have today.

But what is interesting is that they all are on the coast.

This makes me think whether Dravidam has anything to do "Drava-idam"?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jun 2006, 03:17

>This makes me think whether Dravidam has anything to do "Drava-idam"?

That is new for me... and I like it!! Makes sense!!!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 29 Jun 2006, 09:45

With respect to the Pancha Dravida, they may not exactly correspond to the linguistic states which we have today.

No they dont. Because the extent of the states was very different. ANd there was no concept of states anyway. For instance, the extent of kannaDa speaking areas was much wider and extended further north as is evident from literture and vast inscriptional evidences. BTW pancadrAviDa referred not to the languages but to the 5 brAhmaNa groups(Like pancagauDa).

This makes me think whether Dravidam has anything to do "Drava-idam"?

No it doesnt. For one, the word in sankrit is draviDa, drAviDa, dramila. The "M" ending is only on adding dvitIyA vibhakti pratyaya. And for another, drava and iDam are words from entirely diffrent languages and combining them is not kosher even now(arisamAsa in kannaDa whic is discouraged). So an ancient combination is unlikely. ANywya all this is just additional.

And importantly, drAViDa means "tamizh" and not to all "dravidian" languages. It was Caldwell who first used it in the generic sense.

As I have mentioned earlier on sangeetham BBOard, drAviDa is thought by scholars to have come from "tira vIDu" meaning"Open home"(Plains).
Likewise one of the theories for deriving karNATa is from karunADu meaning "elevated country"(plateau).

tiravIDu-- tiramIDu-- tamizh(With other intermediate forms). Note that several of the intermidiate forms are seen in sanskrit and other languages while some are not seen but "Constructed" on linguistic logic.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Jun 2006, 00:41

I recollect that when EVR and DK were pushing for 'drAviDa nADu' nationalists (Rajaji etc) were calling it 'thIrA viDaM' (ultimate poison)

DRS

does the word 'drAviDa' occur in the vedic literature or Ramayana? It occurs in Mahabharata, i know for sure.. Also what is the feminine form of the word (since by the dictionary (Apte) drAviDI means Cardomam)!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 Jul 2006, 13:00

Ho come the thread has gone all quite? Is that it?

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 02 Jul 2006, 19:16

DRS,
My knowledge of linguistics, archaeology and age of Rig Veda is very poor. However, I am reading the articles on the above and related topics , including PIE, from the net. It would take some time to come up with a reasonably acceptable post. I hope to do it.

One of the first benefits of such reading has been to disabuse my mind of the thought that Tamil is the oldest Dravidian language.Every average Tamilian believes in this as it gets dinned into him in every possible way. But I read in one of the Kannada related sites that Kannada branched off from proto Dravidian at a very early age and hence can be assumed to be "older " than Tamil. Even if this is not true they will be equally "ancient".

After going through some forums discussing Harappa, PIE , age of Rig Veda etc. I found that the regional and other tensions of today are brought into every post. Contrary to this, the posts on this thread were devoid of acrimony. Atleast for this reason I hope the members continue to post.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 02 Jul 2006, 19:50

Though not directly connected to the thread an interesting article.
http://www.geocities.com/indianpaganism/hornedgod.html

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 02 Jul 2006, 20:30

He mentions three kinds of prakrits
1. Old Indo-Aryan which was supposedly spoken during Rig vedic times which was refined into Sanskrit.
2. The Middle Indo-Aryan which represented Pali and the buddhist literature
3. Late Prakrit which evolved into apabhramsha handled effectively by tulsi.

Quite true. Prakrit is not a single monolithic language. As far as I understand it is a name given to a group of languages that does not belong to a purified class which classical sanskrit was known to be.

But when applied in the generic sense, it would have to encompass Old-Indo-Aryan (i.e Vedic and Avestan).

I think this Sanskrit purification time would have been the period when the Vedic religion began to crystallize into what we now call Hinduism, when Vishnu and Shiva emerged as the favourite among the pantheon of Vedic deities. This would have happened well after the Deva-Asura split... for we find a lot of Asura bashing in our scriptures written in classical sanskrit, which includes almost all of the puranic literature and later Upanishads. Scholars have a kind of rule-of-thumb approach to identify post Vedic scriptures... while Vedic literature extensively used the word 'Viswa', this word in most cases got replaced in post Vedic (classical sanskrit) literature by 'Sarva'.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 Jul 2006, 23:11

Goood to see your post Kaapi.

But I read in one of the Kannada related sites that Kannada branched off from proto Dravidian at a very early age and hence can be assumed to be "older " than Tamil. Even if this is not true they will be equally "ancient".

It actually is true and It is accepted by linguists that kannaDa and tuLu branched off earlier than Tamizh from Proto-Dravidian. kannaDa completely eschews palatalization(ka turning to ca) which is common in tamizh but more widespread in telugu. ka is the older form of these. e.g

In kannaDa key/kay means "to do"(verb) as well as the "hand"(noun).

In tamizh cey is "to do" while "kai" is hand

In telugu cey is used for both "to do" and "hand. But old telugu also has "kai" which is seen in usages such as "kaikO".

There are 2 kinds of people who consider that tamizh is the "oldest". One is the group that simply "believes" this to be the case. the other group argues that literature was first composed?(at least written) in tamizh.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jul 2006, 01:00

Quite true. Prakrit is not a single monolithic language. As far as I understand it is a name given to a group of languages that does not belong to a purified class which classical sanskrit was known to be.

But when applied in the generic sense, it would have to encompass Old-Indo-Aryan (i.e Vedic and Avestan).

In the Sangeetham BB, you posted a Darius inscription that was interesting. I thought there was an open question about whether it was Avestan or Prakrit. I searched for it but could not find it. Could you post that again please?

There are 2 kinds of people who consider that tamizh is the "oldest". One is the group that simply "believes" this to be the case. the other group argues that literature was first composed?(at least written) in tamizh.

I guess I belong to the "believe" group since I have read that in many places. Until I read about this today, I was under the mistaken belief that kannaDa branched from the old Tamil long time back. So what time periods are we talking about.. BCE or CE? Does the literature claim have any validity?

With respect to the "oldest Dravidian language", would the Dravidian language that is spoken in the Northwest India-Pakistan region? I do not know much about it, whether it has any resemblance to our languages or not.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Jul 2006, 01:35

In the Sangeetham BB, you posted a Darius inscription that was interesting. I thought there was an open question about whether it was Avestan or Prakrit. I searched for it but could not find it. Could you post that again please?

VK. Srkris posted this on this thread as well. Look up the previous pages.

So what time periods are we talking about.. BCE or CE?

Most certainly BCE. An a long way back in BCE although exact periods are nt known.

Does the literature claim have any validity?

Of the literature found so far, tamizh literature is the earliest followed by kannaDa. But tamizh scholars have the tendencey to push the dates back by several centuries which "magnifies " the differences. It is clear that earlier well-developed literature existed in kannaDa from the kannaDa texts themselves where the poets recall poets who had been before their time. We also find quotes of individual verses from texts now lost to us. Tamizh literature also bears this out. Ancient tamizh literature mentions kannaDa among the ancient languages. Also "yAppperungaLakkArigai" was written after a kannaDa work of HUGE proportions "guNagAnkiyam" as acknowledged by the author himself. This text is sadly lost.

With respect to the "oldest Dravidian language", would the Dravidian language that is spoken in the Northwest India-Pakistan region? I do not know much about it, whether it has any resemblance to our languages or not.

No Just as PIE, proto-dravidian is a reconstructed language. brAhui spoken in N.W Pakistan(Baluchistan) is ancient no doubt but is not considered as the "origin". It certainly is a Dravidian language without any doubt.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jul 2006, 03:06

>VK. Srkris posted this on this thread as well. Look up the previous pages.

Thanks. I found it now.

On brAhui, that is an enigma, isn't it? I just read about the brAhui people, they still seem to be nomadic cattle herders living the hard desert life.

I wanted to listen to how brAhui sounds. I found this from a Christian missionary site: The Jesus film in brAhui.

http://www.everytongue.com/list1-on-line-recordings.htm

Look for brAhui and the corresponding real video or audio link.

How does this sound to you? The same film is available in Tamil, kannaDa, Telugu and Malayalam as well so, if time and interest permits, one can compare the dialogue.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Jul 2006, 04:13

Did you notice they have no recordings in Sanskrit!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jul 2006, 04:32

May be the missioneries figured.. if we do this then those darn Hindus might subsume Jesus as another avatar, like they did for Buddha

I bet there is already some school of Hinduism that is pretty close to Christianity in theology.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 03 Jul 2006, 06:41

CML & VK, see this:

http://www.bhaktivani.com/

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Jul 2006, 09:59

Chembai
That does not answer my query!

VK

This one will

'matsya kUrma varAhasya nArasimhasya vAmanaH!
rAmO rAmasya rAmasya kriShna k^Ristu janArdanaH||

(JayadEva inserted buddha among the dashAvatAra but the evangelists in Kerala substituted Christ in place of Kalki as the 'Saviour of the World'!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Jul 2006, 11:28

On brAhui, that is an enigma, isn't it? I just read about the brAhui people, they still seem to be nomadic cattle herders living the hard desert life.

Are you referring to its geographical position and isolation as enigma? The dravidians seem to have been far more widepread and migrated southerly later(for whatever reasons). This being so, brahui is not an enigma.

Look for brAhui and the corresponding real video or audio link.

How does this sound to you?

Hardly dravidian. Iam not at all sure it is brahui. While brahui has had lot of give and take with the urdu-arab-persian- IE languages due to millenia of coexistence, it is still distinctly recognisable as dravidian(As I have seen in books). This film to me sounded very much Arabicish-urduish.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jul 2006, 14:25

Are you referring to its geographical position and isolation as enigma? The dravidians seem to have been far more widepread and migrated southerly later(for whatever reasons). This being so, brahui is not an enigma.

Yeah, the geographical position and isolation...I am wondering if the linguists/others have a good explanation as to how that pocket retained its dravidian language whereas there is a huge geographical gap between there and south india.

There are two mp3 audio links at the bottom of this page which is supposed to be in brahui. ( Again from the missionaries. as a side benefit, you can infer about their conversion strategies from these conversations points

).

http://globalrecordings.net/program/C03530

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Jul 2006, 20:36

VK/DRS

Look at
http://globalrecordings.net/country/IN
the languages spoken in India (of interest to evangelists).
There is no SankEti!
Is it an accident or that they could not find 'messengers' to spread the word of God. I though there are a few thousands at NA alone!

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 03 Jul 2006, 21:36

VK,
The following link provides some good info on Dravidian languages.

http://assets.cambridge.org/052177/1110 ... 1110ws.pdf

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 03 Jul 2006, 23:30

The Indo-European family tree:
http://www.biblemysteries.com/images/familytree.jpg

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Jul 2006, 23:31

I am wondering if the linguists/others have a good explanation as to how that pocket retained its dravidian language whereas there is a huge geographical gap between there and south india.

Certain things/phenomena do not have an explanation. ANd they need not. That is the way it happened. It is nice that at least that one pocket remained. This helps linguists/anthropologists/historians.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Jul 2006, 00:12

VK/DRS Look at
http://globalrecordings.net/country/IN
the languages spoken in India (of interest to evangelists).
There is no SankEti!

That is very interesting!!

While looking around in that site, there is a way by which you can view by community. There is a community name called 'kepmari'

I have only heard that in the context of chennai rikshawala verbally abusing someone.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Jul 2006, 21:13

VK

as I was looking at the list of communities (including kepmaris) i noticed that the missionaries are primarily tageting the poor and uneducated 'tribes' in India to pass on their 'conversion package'. During the early days of last century they were primarily tagetting Brahmins hoping that by converting the intellectuals they will have the whole caboodle in their net. Max Muller primarily 'studied' the vedas to prove that it was 'junk' compared to his 'Lord's message' through the Messiah. The idea backfired since many westerners discovered the advanced philosophy that is imbedded in Hinduism. Even today the western intellectuals are drawn to the elevated thinkings in Hindu Philosophy. Hence now the missionaries are trrying the 'bottoms up' plan. Perhaps they found 'sanskrit' and 'sanketi' too smart for comfort with the fear of being 'hoisted with their own petard'

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 06 Jul 2006, 04:45

Kaapi
That is a a very interesting and informative link that you provided. Too bad its only a sample and not the whole book

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 23 Jul 2006, 02:32

I am glad that Bhadriraju Krishnamurti's recent work has been brought up on this forum since a careful reading of this foremost Dravidologist's books and papers over that past several decades can help to disabuse everyone of their pet notions and warmfuzzies such as palatalization-induced-ancience

))

While it is appropriate to demand that many Tamils need to disabuse themselves of notions regarding their language as the Ur-language of the Dravidian family, Kannada chauvinism and other such chauvinisms shouldn't be brushed under the carpet either.

-Srini.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Jul 2006, 02:55

I am glad that Bhadriraju Krishnamurti's recent work has been brought up on this forum since a careful reading of this foremost Dravidologist's books and papers over that past several decades can help to disabuse everyone of their pet notions and warmfuzzies such as palatalization-induced-ancience ))

Do you mind explaining yourself. Such terse and tongue-incheek comments do not add anything constructive to the discussion unless you clarify your point. It is obvious from observing the development of the dravidian languages that palatalization is a later process. Surely you are not saying the whole chronology has been reversed to suit somenes whim!

While it is appropriate to demand that many Tamils need to disabuse themselves of notions regarding their language as the Ur-language of the Dravidian family, Kannada chauvinism and other such chauvinisms shouldn't be brushed under the carpet either..

Excuse me. You need to disabuse yourself of your notions here. We are not interested in chauvinism here. I have not seen any claim of kannaDa being the most ancient language in a single kannaDa book on linguistics. So your argument is baseless.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Jul 2006, 04:06

I agree with DRS here!
Hidden barbs hurt only the user! The discussiona and comments should be transparent (and honest too!).