Learning Telugu

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:34

I would think it is hard for the two languages in such close proximity to not influence each other, but I do not hear much of a sanskritic influence in Sri Lankan tamil. They seem to use lot less sanskrit words than Indian tamils.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Jul 2006, 23:39

I thought it was kalaikkaradu

No DRS! It is kathaikkiRathu! Apparently sanskrit origin. The EzhaM Tamils have a closer affinity with malayalam as do the sanketi with kannada. The Ezhavas of Kerala (sea-faring folks) mixed frequently with the sri lankans. Interestingly many of them substitute 'La' for 'zha' which also distinguishes Tamils in TN. I have heard that the tODAs have a genetic mutation which does not permit them to fold the tongue to verbalize 'zha'. I did not find 'zha' usage in your sanketi compositions either! Is it a rarity?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Aug 2006, 01:14

Arasi/folks
Even if you did not see the movie Tenali (Tamil) do see the movie 'What about Bob?'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103241/
It is of special interest to psychiatrists

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2006, 02:14

I have seen 'What about Bob' quite a few times. Very funny movie. I haven't seen Tenali. What is the relation to Tenali? Remake of What about Bob?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Aug 2006, 02:32

Tenali is the precise remake of what about bob in Tamil! Kamalahasan is Bob as a Srilankan and has done a great job. You will enjoy the language as well the acting having seen the English version!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 02:44

DRS,
When I had many 'slawn' (Ceylon) tamizh classmates in my undergrad years--'JufnA' (Jaffna) tamizh surrounded me. I admired their 'vaDivAna' (beautiful) speech and their addressing even a child or a close friend in bahu vacana (such respect!) Of course, there were moments of mirth wih some unusual words--musuppAththi and pagaDi for instance (both refering to my teasing them). 'kathaikkiRathu' was 'speaking' in those times. As in today's tamizhnadu parlance, did the word change during the course of years or is it because it traveled to far away Britain and suffered a sea change? I know nothing of the linguistic studies--but the dragging of the sentences and the musical quality of their speech often reminded me of Tirunelveli and a bit of Madurai thamizh...

cml,
Yes, 'I want to look inside TenAli's (Bob's?) head', though non-professionally...

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 01 Aug 2006, 03:01

Also Lankan Tamils have the practise of saying "aam" just once. I dont recollect having heard TN tamils say that... we say "aamaam" (adukku thodar) or shrink it to a meaningless "aamaa".

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Aug 2006, 04:36

Also Lankan Tamils have the practise of saying "aam" just once. I dont recollect having heard TN tamils say that... we say "aamaam" (adukku thodar) or shrink it to a meaningless "aamaa".

The Srilankas say "Om" and sometimes "Omam" or "OmOm" not Am. Which is why I mentioned that Om in my previous post.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Aug 2006, 04:43

Interestingly many of them substitute 'La' for 'zha' which also distinguishes Tamils in TN.

O no. Not all TN tamizhs can say zha! No way! In some districts they only say "La" and not "zha". vALapaLam is too common. And we also know of vAyapayam dont we. adellA namma "payakkavayakkamAyppOccu". You wouldnt say what you said if you had watched the tamizh TV channels of today and the way those announcers speak tamizh. "la" for "La" and "La" for "zha". Talk about frame-shift mutations. Sometimes zha even becomes la. Feels like strangling them and pulling their tongues out.

"avangalukku tamile olungaa pEsa varAdu."

I have heard that the tODAs have a genetic mutation which does not permit them to fold the tongue to verbalize 'zha'.

I dont believe this, They will have difficulties saying it if their language does not have that sound. Reminds me of Koreans enmasse having their children,s tongues operated upon to lengthen it. SImply because they think it helps them speak English better. Good God! What is the world coming to!

I did not find 'zha' usage in your sanketi compositions either! Is it a rarity?

No it is not a rarity. It is completely absent. LOL. BUt I dont have a problem pronouncing it as I learnt it.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Aug 2006, 05:33

DRS
The pronunciation of 'zha' does depend on the tongue muscles. Just like the 'independant ear lobe' it is determined by a gene! It has been claimed that 'zha' is an import from Arab language. However the arabic zha is quite different. There seems to be a distinct association of zha with being brahmins. Of course quite a few 'non brahmins' too can verbalize. The Europeans cetainly cannot say it correctly even with training!

It is completely absent

I am surprised! Did they have them originally and lost it through non use! It is worth investigating!

There used to be a practice among 'brahmin' households to imbed the root called 'vashambu' in gold and after bath rub it on the tongue of the baby. They say it was done to get
'naakku vazhan^NgaNaM'. But especially they insist on the correct enunciation of 'zha'. I am not sure how common the practice is nor am I sure of the effect of the root![/quote]

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 01 Aug 2006, 05:43

It is completely absent
I am surprised! Did they have them originally and lost it through non use! It is worth investigating!

It does appear to have gone out of use although present originally. The situation is simlar to what happened in kannaDa itself. Where the sound was there and went into disuse later. May be the disuse paralleled that in kannaDa or was an independent development.

I doubt it was san Arab import as it is an ancient sound in Dravidian and considered as having been present in Proto-Dravidian. Arab import? Prehistoric import? May be Dravidians came from or through Arabia!(That theory has been mooted so dont be surprised).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2006, 06:10

"avangalukku tamile olungaa pEsa varAdu."

LOL...

More than the insistence of the brahmin household on saying the zha sound right, it is the schooling that matters. If someone had gone to school and learnt Tamil, they would know how to say it right and they will say it right if they know others will make fun of them otherwise. If at all the Tamil teachers are picky about anything, it is that sound.

I will need a lot more convincing that it is in the genes...Any references CML? May be I should pester my non-indian friends to see if they can say it after some practice.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Aug 2006, 06:25

Chandra,
Ask them to say this: 'vyAzha kizhamai Ezhai kizhavar vAzhapazhattAl vazhukki vizhundAr'

Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Aug 2006, 06:30

And BTW, this past Friday, we gave a warm welcome to 'tiru Y. G. mahEndiranum avar kuluvinarkkum'...
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Aug 2006, 06:38

Vk

It was in a journal on anthropology pulished in India. One has to search the archives at Madras University! The present generation of Tamils don't care; they would rather anglicize than say it right. Interestingly lots of brahmin kids who associate with nonbrahmins are unable to say it right! There was a time I remember when EVR wanted to get rid of it (as part of his 'ezhuththu puratchi') as a protest against brahmins.

The following experiment is easy. If you are drunk you will not be able to say 'zha'. The tongue muscle relating to it are paralyzed. That is the typical drunkards drawl!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2006, 07:09

>'vyAzha kizhamai Ezhai kizhavar vAzhapazhattAl vazhukki vizhundAr'

LOL.. that will be the day..

If you are drunk you will not be able to say 'zha'. The tongue muscle relating to it are paralyzed. That is the typical drunkards drawl!

You are giving me ideas CML....What an excellent excuse for some inebriation

I am willing to suffer for a scientific cause

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 07:23

cml,
Do you think vasambu was not widely used in the viallges? I go with your inebriated speech, though. "kuDigAran pOL nAkkuzhaRugirathip pAr!" is the expression. pazhakkam is another thing. I know of many not-brahmin born tamizhs who pronounce zha perfectly. You won't know them, but of the notables, T.K.Chidambaranatha Mudaliar, Cha, Ganesan (Chettiar) and so on. We have lived with La for LA for ages, and it goes under the quaint category for me.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 07:42

DRS,
You are right. It has been my pet peeve as well--la for La, vice-versa, na for NA, the other way round and so on. The culprit? Yes, as you say, TV culture. How many brahmin youngsters pronounce them right? Before the decay creeps into writing as well (if it already has not), educationists have to come up with a solution. Technology might help. Pronounciation tests might too.
As for the entertainment industry, screen tests should include uchcharippu tests. Acting coaches should zero in on this as well. Oh, don't forget the newsreaders. Have highly qualified screeners and coaches. No amount of bribing should enable one in getting the job, in the interest of the health of our thEn mozhi (Imagine someone like me--weak in math and laya become a kaNAkku teacher or a nattuvAngam person!).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 07:49

VK (moon?!)
The way I teach my non-indian friends to pronounce zha is this way. "Pzhitend you Azh vezhi amezhican and say zhA". It wozhks, most of the time! Europeans succeed too...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 07:51

cml,
I meant LA for zha

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2006, 08:09

VK (moon?!)
The way I teach my non-indian friends to pronounce zha is this way. "Pzhitend you Azh vezhi amezhican and say zhA". It wozhks, most of the time! Europeans succeed too...

Good idea. I will try that technique verbatim...(male moon!)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Aug 2006, 08:17

Very topical: male moon....= madiazhagar!
Ravi

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 01 Aug 2006, 08:22

I have one set of cousins raised in Delhi who can say Zha very well(including myself) and never learnt Tamizh, while one set of them grew in Eramanathapuram who cannot pronounce it inspite of studying in tamizh medium!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 08:54

While we are joking around, VK, you don't have to 'qualify' anymore after you revealed what kind of cuckoo you are. Now, I am wondering about Meena (Do I get a happy-hour coupon for asking this, or is the meritorious monitor

?).
Seriously, recess is over, and off we go into our classrooms to learn more about the greatness of CM

...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Aug 2006, 17:22

Arasi,
I can't help this: in one of the local light music performances I went to some years ago, there was a middle-aged mAmi singing 'maNam kaNindarul vEL murugA' ....for a moment, the melody was familiar, but I could not place the song, until it clicked that it was 'manam kanindaruL vEl murugA' from 'vIrapANDiya kaTTabomman'! I did not make that one up!
Ravi

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2006, 21:04

Ravi,
Tamizh is such a rich language that we can still make sense out of what she sang:
maNam--fragrance kaNi--chandanam kaNindu (chandanam ena?)
arul??--Mmm
vEL murugA--muruga vELE!

chandana maNam kamaZhum un sannidiyil, muruga vELE! Arul (L)???

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Aug 2006, 21:25

vALiya chentamil
vAlka naRRamilar
vALiya bhArata
manniththiru (manniththu iru

) nADE!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Aug 2006, 22:21

CML,
LOL!
We will remember to bring our pails (vALIs) along to gather the mannippu... from none other than the tamil tAi....
Ravi

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Aug 2006, 23:03

LOL..

I had the misfortune of watching on TV for a few minutes to Bhavatharini, daughter of maestro Ilayaraja. It was 'La' all over and not that far from what CML wrote since whatever she sang had quite a few 'zha's in sequence.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Aug 2006, 01:04

I mounted the CML hobby horse and arrived at about 300 BC. There was a family fighting loudly with each other. The man was 'bhagavan' and belonged to the high caste (brahmin) and the woman was 'aathi' who belonged to the lower caste. Apparently it was a love marriage and was quite acceptable in those days. They were fighting about naming their newwborn son. Bhagavan insisted that the name should be 'vazhuvAn' meaning that the boy will not slip off from his traditional adherence to dharma. Aathi insisted that the name should be 'vaLLuvan' (stringer/soothsayer) which was her traditional fmily occupation. She added that at any rate even if she accepts the name suggested by her husband she could only say 'vaLuvAn' and so he better be called vaLLuvan. Of course the woman did win finally as usual. Since I knew the future I moved forward about 50 years and found that boy vaLLuvan had become 'thiru vaLLuvar' and was a respected saint. As I approached him respectfully and introduced myself to him and the fight at the time of his naming ceremony. The saint laughed and said that he knew all about it from his mother who said that his father left his mother (calling her a feminist) and he was broughtup entirely by his mother. And as started his traditional 'stringing business' ('nool' in Tamizh) he had an inspiration to create scholarly works ('nool' meaning books (in Tamizh) or sUtra (in sanskrit). He said the very first inspiration he had was the couplet
'zhakara muthala ezhuththellAm aathi
bhagavan muthaRRE uLathu'
('zha' is the first letter and the controversy started with aathi and bhagavan (his parents)).
And since 'zha' was the apple of discord between his parents he had cursed that no word in Tamizh could ever start with it. Once he did that he decided to elevate 'akaaram' (letter 'a') to the primary position and just as did it, as it happened to vAlmiki when he saw the kraunca killed (which is yet another story) the inspiration came to him
'akara muthala ezhuththellAm aathi
bhagavan muthaRRE uLaku'
Just then the creator (brahma) himself appeared before him and said that what he said was indeed the very first 'kuRaL' ( shlOka form in Tamizh) and entreated him to create a book of morals that will be the 'lighthouse' of conduct for the whole of humanity and the 'vEda' in the Tamizh language. He said it was getting completed but did not know how it would be received by the masses who were forgetting Tamizh in their craze for other languages.

I then realized that I was running low on gas and hurriedly returned to the 21st century to fillup before the 'war' would bankrupt me! I am now waiting to get back to get more fascinating details as to how he fared, but atleast I got to know the secret behind 'zha' 's banishment from first position

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Aug 2006, 07:42

Wow! cml, I see you are in the prose mode now. vaDa mozhiyil iyaRRiyadaRkellAm oru break pOlavA??
nyAna ratham ERinAl arabu eNNAi vENDumA?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 05 Aug 2006, 01:55

Locate some howlers here due to ignorance and/or crass indifference of the author of the review.

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/08/04/stor ... 540400.htm

>>>`Surasararipu Garapja' of "Jagadanandaka," the Nattai song<< for "surasAripu karAbja"

>>"Puddi Radu" in Sankarabharanam<< and >>"Janakaja Sameda" in Asaveri.<< for buddhi rAdu and janakajA samEta

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Aug 2006, 02:39

After reading this review, I have concluded that Lord Shiva will not dance his Ananda tANDavam to pUrvIkalyANI...

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/08/04/stor ... 990300.htm

What do you think?

Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 05 Aug 2006, 02:44

LOL ravi. Good one

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Aug 2006, 08:11

Ravi!

Ananda naDamADuvathillai ippO (ri ga ri--dillai)
azhagu tamizhil aDi sarukkubavarkk (pa ma gari--kubavar)
ATTAm inRillai pOm--Ananda:/

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 05 Aug 2006, 08:12

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Aug 2006, 08:15

LOL!
Arasi..Great ONE!
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Aug 2006, 11:12

arasi!
athuvEsari!
(athuvE sari = that is correct!
athu vEsari = that is a donkey!)

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 05 Aug 2006, 17:43

he he

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Aug 2006, 21:39

Peruse at your leisure for a few laughs!
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/08/11/stor ... 500300.htm

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Aug 2006, 22:23

The popular Tyagaraja composition `Jnanamusarakada' in Rupaka tala stood out owing to the distinct style of `avarohana' he resorted to.

jnAna musara kAdA. Is knowledge not gathering around you?
Or maybe the reviwer felt the knowledge was tainted for reasons known to himself.(musure, ecchil, jhUThA).
What on earth is "distinct style of avarohana"?

`Gurulekha etuvanthi'

guNiki teliyakapOdu.

The teacher's writing is so bad that no one able to read the sums he has worked out on the board.

`Brochevare varuva

vAhrE vAhrE vA. kitnA baDhiyA review hai.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Aug 2006, 22:32

:lol::lol:

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 Aug 2006, 22:41

ROFL!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 04 Sep 2006, 17:36

Please refer to Thyagaraja Kriti - guru lEkayeTuvaNTi - rAga gaurimanOhari.
I need a clarification -
The pallavi of the kRti is as under -

guru lEkayeTuvaNTi guNiki teliyaka pOdu

guru lEka teliyaka bOdu - Normally the word lEka is used with meaning 'without'. Also the word 'teliyaka' is in negative form - by adding 'ka' at the end of a verb, it is converted into negative - eg. teliya - teliyaka; jUDa - jUDaka; vrAya - vrAyaka etc. Again the word 'pOdu' is also in negative form. Therefore, there are three negatives in the sentence.
Taking the meaning as it stands, it conveys the meaning, 'no matter how virtuous a person is (eTuvaNTi guNiki), it is not possible (pOdu) that he will not know (teliyaka) without (lEka) a preceptor (guru)'; in other words, 'no matter how virtuous one is, he will know without a preceptor'. This is not the message which zrI tyAgarAja wants to convey. The thrust of the kRti is to advocate the inescapability of a preceptor. Therefore, the words 'lEka' and 'teliyaka' would mean differently than what is said before.
In my humble opinion, the word 'lEka' has been used in the sense of 'unless' and 'teliyaka' means 'to know' - it does not convey a negative meaning. Accordingly, the meaning of the pallavi would be 'no matter how virtuous a person is (eTuvaNTi guNiki), unless (lEka) he is a preceptor (guru), it is not possible (pOdu) for him to know (teliyaka)'.
I seek clarification.
V Govindan

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Sep 2006, 20:19

i have a simple doubt about regarding word conjunctions in telugu. This actually may be is not restricted to telugu and this concept exists in other languages too - but at present i am interested in some specific examples in telugu.

I want to first confess that i dont know telugu and so even the litle i presume here may be wrong.

I am interested specifically in the use of conjunction with the word "okka" (one). I see examples like nannokka = nannu + okka, or anubhavamokaTi => anubhavamu + okaTi. In krithis when such words occur, it is not uncommon for the part before the okka to be stretched out a wee-bit i.e based on the musical meter (or tune). For example anubhava... or nann.... In such cases, if you sing it as a conjunction it comes out like nan... + nokkka and anubhava.. + mokaTi which seems wrong (???). Am i right in that would not be proper?

In that case, how better to sing it while sticking to the musical meter as in without introducing extra "artifacts"? For example if you sing nann...u + okaTi, you have to make sure the "u" part doesnt take a mathrai and thus unless you shorten the okaTi by a mathrai, your meter is off. So what is the best way?

Thanks
Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Sep 2006, 20:26

nannokaTi is not aproblem as even if you sing nann----nokaTi you are keeping thw whole word together. N gets pronounced.

anubhavamokaTi, you can split as anubhavam-- okaTi. A slight chnage in the way one pronounces will effect this.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Sep 2006, 20:27

so nokaTi (sung so that it stands out) as such is ok? I guessed not because as such it is not valid - or am i wrong about that too?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Sep 2006, 20:30

arun. I sometimes find it difficult to convey to you what I mean to say. Try pronouncing "nann--" and then "okaTi". Hopefully you will see what I mean.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Sep 2006, 20:36

drshrikaanth wrote:arun. I sometimes find it difficult to convey to you what I mean to say

Thanks. You are being kind

I got it now. There are some renditions (of another krithi) i have heard where i perceived "nokATi" as standing out like a sore thumb. I think perhaps there, the stretch-emphasis on "nn.." wasn't let-off enough when going into the "okaTi" part.

Arun

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 02 Jan 2007, 15:39

drshrikaanth wrote:One of the worst ones that gets to my nerves is kirubAgaran for kRpAkaran. And kiruba means "hyena" in kannaDa :cheesy:

DRSji, you dont have worry about hyenas, my friend (named kirubAharan) will take care of them