Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

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rajeshnat
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#1 Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by rajeshnat » 11 Oct 2010, 19:34

Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?
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Overall in the last 3 months or so , we are definitely losing the core purpose of this site . There is just too much miscellaneous posts especially in the sections "members stuff and lounge" (CWG corruption, drinking matters , rajini etc). I guess initially just to accomodate few laughther related subjects the lounge was created , but now the tail then was short and sweet , now the tail is so long that it becomes a nightmare to cross all this clutter day after day and then reach out to actual CM , it becomes so tiring to read that we lose focus on CM totally.

For all those who think , hey you can just ignore these posts instead of cribbing .Here are few counters

1. Each of us will spend a lot of time to read the posts and then only write , when every day you spend close to 2 hours in reading the posts there is absolutely no time to write .Hence slowly we are losing the content writing time on CM. As such I personally write only when I attend concerts , of late I am reducing it a lot due to long hours in late evenings at work , but I got to hear with few other folks whom I talk that they hardly find time to write as this site has lost its focus.

2. Each of 5000 members may like to talk about one of their interests like laxman hitting , CWG corruption, lungis , but it just grows almost 100 posts per day , it just becomes too much of visual strain to all of us. Each of us can send to selected friends and relatives by email then posting in this site.

3. Also in my work of late when ever I click on few links immediately the firewall disallows me saying that this site is banned etc for whatever reason as it treats the content as inappropriate . Before any of u jumpin to say that this is your particular problem, I would like to humbly state before this deluge of lounge started I did not face this issue. Infact this firewall block is worrying me that I had to write this post

4. This site is not a social networking site and this need not mimic a rediff and sify .com to talk about current affairs and have150 replies.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 13 Oct 2010, 10:16, edited 1 time in total.
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rajeshnat
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#2 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by rajeshnat » 11 Oct 2010, 19:40

Attn Srkris:

In some post( I cant find that link now),you stated that you had reservations about lounge, now I suggest that you really intervene and MAKE THIS SITE EXCLUSIVELY ONLY TO CARNATIC MUSIC.An occassional humour posts will just do .Let us kill this lounge for ever which is cannibalizing other CM related topics.

MY mission is to really share CM to whatever I know and really help the present artists in reviewing the concert that I attended . But now I am just beginning to lose my motivation which I had it for the last 8 years. SrKris act.(VK , CMLover and Lakshman(fellow mods) help srkris)
Last edited by rajeshnat on 11 Oct 2010, 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
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VK RAMAN
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#3 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by VK RAMAN » 11 Oct 2010, 19:49

Some times becoming very silly
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Nick H
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#4 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by Nick H » 11 Oct 2010, 20:35

You do not have to read all the posts!

You do not even have to look at all the threads.

You should, however, get a sensible firewall!

The lounge is a good way to hive off chatter diversions in musical threads, thus leaving them more musical.
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#5 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 11 Oct 2010, 22:47

Rajesh: Yes, srkris expressed his reluctance at the time of creation of the lounge. I was for it ( or rather neutral but thought it will work since it had worked at other forums ).

srkris was afraid of the very reason that your subject line becomes the reality, namely the focus is shifting away from CM.
But given that the topics related to CM is small compared to the topics that cover all other matters, it is only natural that the Lounge sees a lot more posts which can give the impression that the focus is going away from CM. I still think it is a perception issue. That is, the CM portion has remained the same ( or growing however slightly ).

Rajesh, I assume you read the forum using the "unread posts" link. I can see why the Lounge posts seem to dominate. Volume level is high there.

Here is one practical item that our members can implement themselves, especially those who post frequently in the Lounge, to save the Lounge. Do not post there just because you happen to see something that is interesting to you. Take a breather, just think for a couple of seconds and see if it will be interesting to the rest of the members. That pause can reduce the volume of Lounge posts and improve on the correct perception that we are still a CM forum.

Hopefully, the upcoming music reason will tilt the balance to the CM side, in terms of the number of posts.

On the Lounge itself, it has definitely been more pain for the mods. There are five different types of feedback we get.
We get this through various channels like emails, mod alert and sometimes postings in the forum itself ( which is discouraged ).

1) What, you allow that? That is a disgrace!! How come that it is still on the forum?
2) What, you are moderating content? How dare you!! You think you are an authoritarian or a Nazi?
3) People feel like walking off the forum, for either of the above two reasons ( this is a very stressful one to deal with )
4) From third parties who are not even involved in the disputed content about how horribly inept we are in our job as mods.
5) And the mod/admin are diagnosed as the reason why the forum is going down the drains ( but that has always been around even before the lounge but has increased after the Lounge)

In addition to dealing with the above conflicting reactions which have increased after the creation of the Lounge, the Lounge has seen more moderating activity ( like closure of threads ) than other sub-forums. So it is not a walk in the park.

(I had written in a different thread about the general moderating policies, it is a long and loose rope and we are not really setup to moderate content and debate ( content editing is done only rarely ), the forum is a reflection of the members and not the mods/admins etc. But that is a different topic )

But I still think on balance, it is better to have it and not have it for two of the original reasons I had in mind.

1) It is a convenient place to post/move topics to that are not related to music
2) In this social network that our forum is, we get to interact and socialize with members on non-musical aspects, As social beings, it is hard and unnatural to compartmentalize our interactions. It is beneficial within a limited context.

Though I am stating item 2 as a positive, I may regret that. There have been a lot of occasions where I had to second guess that because of the kind of topics people choose to post and personalizing issues in debates etc. To all members including mods and admins, please exercise discretion and keep in mind the vibe of the forum. It is hard to define, it is a social vibe that can only be perceived by being in the forum.

These are just my thoughts. Others and srkris, chime in.
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rajeshnat
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#6 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by rajeshnat » 13 Oct 2010, 10:16

VK
I just realize now that when you post in website issues thread , you only see it unanswered posts and not in active topics link. Any reason there ? I will write more to your last post little later after also hearing from srkris.
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fduddy
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#7 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by fduddy » 14 Oct 2010, 12:01

rajeshnat wrote:Attn Srkris:

In some post( I cant find that link now),you stated that you had reservations about lounge, now I suggest that you really intervene and MAKE THIS SITE EXCLUSIVELY ONLY TO CARNATIC MUSIC.An occassional humour posts will just do .Let us kill this lounge for ever which is cannibalizing other CM related topics.

MY mission is to really share CM to whatever I know and really help the present artists in reviewing the concert that I attended . But now I am just beginning to lose my motivation which I had it for the last 8 years. SrKris act.(VK , CMLover and Lakshman(fellow mods) help srkris)

Buddy, you have woken up finally. I did raise this long back. VK, I am not picking here ;)

Nick, the intent of the concerns need to be clearly understood than shooting to say, 'read that interest you, ignore etc...'
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Nick H
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#8 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by Nick H » 14 Oct 2010, 13:47

Yes, I accept the concerns. If it is decided to cut the lounge section, that is ok with me.

However, as long as I remember this forum, which is probably since its inception, there has been plenty of social chat. The choice is between keeping that in a place of its own (which, I repeat, there is no compulsion to visit: this remains a valid point of view) or to let it happen in the more serious musical threads, which remain the essence and whole point of the existance of the forum.

What's more, if we are to have a chatless, music-only forum, it will have to be heavily moderated. I doubt that skris and the team want to police this forum in this way, and I doubt that they will want to cope with the fall out that would result if they did.

The lounge seems to me to be a good compromise.
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arunk
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#9 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by arunk » 14 Oct 2010, 22:15

IMHO the spirit of this thread (i.e. requesting admin to kill something without having an open discussion with others who may be affected) is worse more than whatever cannibalization is happening.

And what continues to astound me is the level of insecurity that pervades in the cm world - be it w.r.t which composers' songs ought be presented in what proportion, which artists fans ought to be supported, and now what one ought to be discussing (even in a separate room so to speak). Is cm that fragile - in spite of it also having towering strengths to form lasting impressions on the minds of millions of followers over all these centuries? Can't it stand on its own strengths without the help of "guardians" who have to keep propping it up and reminding others of the edicts?

(Never mind, that was rhetorical - I know all the counter points - I have heard them all)

PS: BTW, my interest in the forum waned long before lounge came about and has more to do with chewing the same gum endlessly.

Arun
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Nick H
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#10 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by Nick H » 14 Oct 2010, 22:26

I think that says it all.

Also of interest is the number of people who have, so far, considered this a thread to contribute to --- and subtract one from that, because I'll talk about anything!

It's the doom and gloom that has been putting me off recently. I think we ought to have a separate section for the no-hope posts!
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#11 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by srkris » 14 Oct 2010, 22:58

Well well what do we do now? Just like Pakistanis constantly say "Pakistan is a reality" out of insecurity, I have to say the lounge is a reality. ;-)
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Nick H
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#12 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by Nick H » 14 Oct 2010, 23:41

Maintain what India delights in referring to as "status quo".

As ever, the votes that count are cast with the feet. People use the lounge; people post in the lounge... I guess those people want the lounge.
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ragam-talam
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#13 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by ragam-talam » 15 Oct 2010, 02:57

Much ado about nothing?
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Nick H
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#14 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by Nick H » 15 Oct 2010, 03:28

Whilst I think that is probably the case, rajeshnat is a very respected contributor, and even if my answers may appear flippant, I do not dismiss his concerns. Still, my practical advice remains the same.
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rajeshnat
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#15 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by rajeshnat » 15 Oct 2010, 06:46

srkris wrote:Well well what do we do now? Just like Pakistanis constantly say "Pakistan is a reality" out of insecurity, I have to say the lounge is a reality. ;-)
Srkris
I am talking about focus of the site and if you are talking about insecurity I think we are not connecting. You appear to be ok with the lounge and lose the cm focus.Can you do this as stated in this thread http://www.rasikas.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 23#p177523. Create a pakistAnnnnnnnnn clearly :) , dont create kash mirrrrrrrrr :(
Last edited by rajeshnat on 15 Oct 2010, 07:49, edited 6 times in total.
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rajeshnat
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#16 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by rajeshnat » 15 Oct 2010, 07:11

arunk wrote:IMHO the spirit of this thread (i.e. requesting admin to kill something without having an open discussion with others who may be affected) is worse more than whatever cannibalization is happening.

And what continues to astound me is the level of insecurity that pervades in the cm world - be it w.r.t which composers' songs ought be presented in what proportion, which artists fans ought to be supported, and now what one ought to be discussing (even in a separate room so to speak). Is cm that fragile - in spite of it also having towering strengths to form lasting impressions on the minds of millions of followers over all these centuries? Can't it stand on its own strengths without the help of "guardians" who have to keep propping it up and reminding others of the edicts?

(Never mind, that was rhetorical - I know all the counter points - I have heard them all)

PS: BTW, my interest in the forum waned long before lounge came about and has more to do with chewing the same gum endlessly.

Arun
Arunk
Perhaps you are taking a dig at me which I dont understand fully or may be in general mixing what "I call focus " and what you "talk about insecurity" .They are mutually exclusive points . I am not saying dont have any open discussion,we can have it. I would like to hear especially from erode nagaraj and mridhangam(as present cm vidwans who contribute the most)and others too just to get their opinion (though I am not sure if they click this thread and see), nowadays they dont even participate may be lounge is the partial reason(may is always a may not). After all this site is more for the vidwans and vidushis who give us the CM.

I want you to keep "chewing new gums where gum is CM" , not anything else.If your interest waned even before lounge help us with your insight and opinions so that you tell all of us instead of holding it yourself , that can be good for all of us.

In general I donot soft peddle issues but I guess even srkris wanted to do this.
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#17 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by arunk » 16 Oct 2010, 01:52

rajesh -

I was not taking a dig at you in particular. Although you had some logistical reasons for getting the lounge posts out of the way, it looked me like you were afraid attention to lounge => less attention to CM threads which in turn means more people are going to stop participating in cm threads because of lounge, and so we should get rid of the lounge to save the cm focus. To me this has the same undercurrent as the other fears in cm arena that I mentioned above. That is what I pointed out.

And maybe this sounds negative but I have found in the cm world there are only a handful flavors of gum ;-) - and that is perhaps efficiently self-regulated! Thus, after a while every sentiment expressed has been expressed a thousand times - perhaps within a year. Now certainly many don't get tired of it (just like your favorite rendition of tODi/bhairavi etc.), and yearn for it to be expressed again, many perhaps expect and mandate and demand it, and for some it is all still new. But for some it does get tiring. So they take a break, time off from these very familiar themes, and then you come back. But each return has the potential of becoming shorter and shorter as you regain the saturation point sooner.

For me the music is still fresh. The talk gets stale - albeit in cycles.

Arun
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#18 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by girish_a » 18 Oct 2010, 14:47

I sometimes get the feeling that everything that can be discussed on CM has already been discussed in this forum :)
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#19 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by VK RAMAN » 18 Oct 2010, 20:18

For some everything that is discussed works as a refresher or a new lesson, IMHO
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#20 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by msakella » 01 Jul 2011, 07:02

Dear brother-member, girish_a, Everything of CM has not been covered in discussions. Still there are many aspects of CM to be discussed and one very important of them is ‘Gamakas of our CM’. Recently started, there are two sub-threads, 1.Gamakas made easy in writing notation and 2.Analyzing & Synthesizing Gamakas, in the main thread ‘Technical Discussions”. While the westerners take every care in standardising every aspect of their music our people have always been used to tell cock and bull stories in this respect not to standardise many of our things and the ‘Gamakas’ is one among them. Even though we have great stalwarts in this field and also they have always been used to teach music to the aspirants in their own way nobody is ready to give clear picture of these ‘Gamakas’ to our aspirants even in this 21st century. They all tell it is not possible to define them and, very conveniently, escape away like in respect of inculcating the knowledge of Manodharma-sangita. That is why no discussions are taking place in this respect. That is the pity. amsharma
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#21 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by veeyens3 » 03 Jul 2011, 03:43

If you look at the number of hits for c.m related subjects which is about 1,59,740 compared to 6796 for members stuff and lounge, the ratio is a measly .5 leaving the so called C.M lovers' stand that memb ers stuff and lounge is making inroads into the genuine needs of C.M lovers appears to be unrealistic. But if the C.M lovers insist that the forum is for C.M only and demand their pounnd of flesh,then this thread may be eliminated ,allowing them to enjoy the vicarious satisfaction in peace May Sri Rama bleess you all
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#22 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 03 Jul 2011, 08:36

Don't worry about any of that. The crowd ( this is, us ) will take care of it over time.. That is how these kinds of forums work. Of course, it can use leadership from the knowledgeable folks to lead the discussions on various topics but that is not something that can be dictated. It just happens out of the interest shown by us.

A useful exercise is for people to post in this thread what topics they would like to discuss and who they think should lead it ( feel free to nominate yourself ). If leadership is not needed, state that too. We will see where it takes us.
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#23 Re: Why are we drifting so much away from CM in this site?

Post by RSR » 23 Oct 2016, 20:06

Sir, The banner says rasikas.org (Carnatic music online forums). . I have been here for nearly one year now and have browsed through many sections related to classical music. It is very unique. a) It loads very fast probably because there are no photos, images, video clips etc to slow down. b) I have a revulsion for sites with advertisements, photos, and even images , rasikas is a great site for its almost total absence. of such 'obscenities' . ( Just today, came to know of its facebook version.. and did not like it. The usual photo mania there. I would request that FB version is scrapped. ).. c) A carnatic music site can have many subsections like 1) ragam identification 2) lyrics for the keerthanams in original language and transliteration in English and preferably in devanagari 3) word by word translation 4) general translation 4) biographical sketches of famous vidwans of the past . 5) provision of downloading facilities of very nice records from the past strictly avoiding films ( MS , Musiri, Desikar ) may be exceptions because of the quality of the songs. 5) A separate section for Instrumental music from past masters. ( Nagaswaram, Flute, Gottuvadhyam, Veena, Violin and even Band 6) Listing of keerthanams by the Trinity , Purandharadasa, and such composers and examples for good rendering of the kruthis sans alaapanai etc. 6) total elimination of any dance-related topics 7) rejection of posts that smack of using the forum pages for advertisement of self with or without commercial motive. 8) translation in all the southern languages, and hindi. 9) posts of personal reminiscences of friendship with celebrities 10) For advanced rasikas, discussion of intricacies of layam.
With so much to cover, where is the need for bringing in posts on half-baked history, literature, poetry, philosophy,religion and such? Strictly speaking, Carnatic music is not 'pure music'. in the sense that Purandharadasa, The Trinity are the bedrock and their compositions are always devotional. We cannot have a secular carnatic music. So, I would suggest that rasikas and participants are advised to strictly follow the purpose of this unique site . It may also be a good idea to filter out one line criticism / appreciation. There is after all a like button.
There must be some provision for sharing a post with a selected group of like - minded persons, not private though. . I have gone through hundreds of posts and can spot some persons who are likely to share information in a stright manner . to the point. As the posts are numerous , they may miss certain posts. ... Anything that grows too much becomes unmanageable. and inevitably lot of garbage remains. ..( perhaps, applicable to this post too!. so adieu)
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