Tamil word for 'placeholder'

kvchellappa
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#26 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by kvchellappa » 21 Nov 2015, 08:15

palanavar as I heard is more so and so, some indefinite person, not a euphemism.
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arasi
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#27 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by arasi » 21 Nov 2015, 09:30

Chellappa,
You are glad, and so am I--
Hope all namesakes are too--
After all, wasn't the name
Given in such endearment?
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arasi
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#28 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by arasi » 21 Nov 2015, 09:32

VK,
Others will chime in.
ippOdaikku--for now...:)

indak kUTTaththiRkAna ippOdaiya azhaippu idu. vADikkaiyALargaL vasadikkETRa nAL therinda pin maRu azhaippu anuppugiROm.
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Ponbhairavi
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#29 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by Ponbhairavi » 21 Nov 2015, 11:22

V.K himself has given the answer.. it is " இப்போ சத்திக்கு " But it is colloquial.( I do not know whether placeholder is also colloquial in english/american context ) In his post 21 remove the placeholder. The remaining sentence conveys the full nuance.
As " சத்திக்கு " is colloquial arasi has changed it asஇப்போதைக்கு ( for the present , provisionally )
The sentence at post 24 can be rendered as
இந்த கூட்டத்திற்கான அழைப்பாக இப்போ சத்திக்கு (VK) / ( இப்போதைக்கு - அரசி ) (தாற்காலிகமாக -pb)-இதை கொள்ளவும் ....
or as Arasi put it :
இந்த கூட்டத்திற்கான இப்போதைய அழைப்பு இது ...

( aside )
பழனி பூக்கடையில் : இதை மலர் இன்னும் சொல்லுவாக பூ இன்னும் சொல்லுவாக ஐயா சொல்லுராகளே அப்பிடியும் சொல்லுவாக ( புஷ்பம் )
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vasanthakokilam
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#30 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by vasanthakokilam » 21 Nov 2015, 23:11

The last few posts from Arasi and Ponbhairavi made me think about placeholder as a holder of something in 'space/place' or 'time' or 'either'.

After some reflection, I think my colleague's use of the word 'placeholder' is not correct.("Here is a placeholder meeting invite and I will confirm once I know the customer's availability"). She really meant 'tentative or provisional' as Ponbhairavi says above. "Here is a meeting invite. It is tentative and I will confirm once I know the customer's availability". 'tentative/provisional' is the right one to use when we are referring to events in the time domain. People still understood what she meant, but that is a different thing.

So I think 'placeholder' as is used in common english speech is with respect to the 'space domain' and so the word 'place' is appropriate after all.

so, (இப்போ சத்திக்கு, இப்போதைக்கு, இப்போதைய, தாற்காலிகமாக etc ) refer to the time domain and hence are not placeholders. I am the one who caused the confusion by quoting a usage which I now think is wrongly used.

So strictly limiting to 'non time' related use, what do we have left as the tamil translation for placeholder?
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vgovindan
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#31 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by vgovindan » 21 Nov 2015, 23:46

vk,
I will quote with two examples.
Bharata kept the sandals of Sri Rama in the simhAsana and, as promised to SrI Rama, he held the reign till His return.
Panneerselvam remained CM of Tamil Nadu on the clear assumption that he would 'hold the fort' till Amma returned.

Now in these two instances, the appropriate Tamil word, IMHO, is பேருக்கு - பெயருக்கு, மேலுக்கு, பார்வைக்கு, தோற்றத்திற்கு etc.
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sridhar_ranga
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#32 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by sridhar_ranga » 22 Nov 2015, 00:35

Yes, I agree 'Palaana' conveys the same meaning as 'so and so', 'such and such' - btw, aren't these expressions kind of place holders?....the word could be of Urdu/Hindi origin ('phalaan') with the same meaning in both Tamil and the original language (just like say dastaavEju or namoona - there, another placeholder word for u!)

IMO, the risque association with palaana is recent and a creation of Kollywood industry. Heck, 'item' is risque in Tamil these days :-). so is ALu (ஆளு). The risqueness is context dependent.
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vasanthakokilam
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#33 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by vasanthakokilam » 22 Nov 2015, 03:23

Vgv, yes, you pulled out the right and powerful example of a placeholder with that bharatha example. Paduka Pattabhishekam Is tantamount to Placeholder Pattabhishekam indeed with the Paduka acting as a placeholder.

Your translations sound right and relatable. How will you use that in a sentence in the noun form. E.g. 'Paduka was the placeholder'
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arasi
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#34 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by arasi » 22 Nov 2015, 05:51

You start with: rAman iDathil pAdukai, until he comes (time IS involved, isn't it, though indirectly?)

Otherwise, aren't the pAdukais replacing HIM? :)
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vasanthakokilam
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#35 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by vasanthakokilam » 22 Nov 2015, 07:22

Arasi, yes you are right, time is indeed involved indirectly even when we are talking about 'space'. Made me scratch my head a bit. So what is the difference? I have the following so far.

'Placeholder' serves a purpose temporarily alright but what it is and what is being substituted are things and that have extensions in space ( if I may ). That is they are things.

In the case of the future calendar entry, it refers to a not-so-fully-fleshed-out event which is a mark in the time domain. The time itself may not hold ( tentative ), the agenda is not fleshed out though the topic is known ( provisional ). I am not sure if placeholder is a right word to use for that but I see people using it.

===
I think there is a subtlety involved. I am not sure how strictly people follow this. ( I am not def getting into the analysis paralysis stage )

The 'thundu/towel' to reserve a seat is a placeholder alright in the literal sense since it is holding a place for you, but it is more a reservation for you and there is a certainty about it.

The other case is when the thing that is going to take its place is not certain. It can be this, it can be that.. etc. I think that is how it is typically used.
That is, it is used when there is a plurality of items that can be substituted or there is some uncertainty what will be substituted there. Only thing that is certain that it is not the real thing.

If we go with this definition, then pannerselvam and paduka are not placeholders.

Does that aspect strike you all as a significant characteristic of a 'placeholder' ? ( I have my own doubts if that is a required criterion )
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#36 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 22 Nov 2015, 08:00

Why not coin a new word?

iDa pAlan (இட பாலன்) may be appropriate.

Other option could be:
iDam kAppOn (இடம் காப்போன்)
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vgovindan
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#37 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by vgovindan » 22 Nov 2015, 08:05

The following I got from Google Search -

"noun: place-holder
1.
MATHEMATICS
a significant zero in the decimal representation of a number.
2.
LINGUISTICS
an element of a sentence that is required by syntactic constraints but carries little or no semantic information, for example the word it as a subject in 'it is a pity that she left', where the true subject is 'that she left'."

In the case of Mathematics, a place holder is definitely not temporary or insignificant. It is very significant.
In case of linguistics example, it is simply the rules of grammar and usage.
In case of Computer languages, this seems to be a jargon for which a suitable word may have to be derived.
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arasi
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#38 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by arasi » 22 Nov 2015, 08:24

PBala's iDam kAppOn sounds good.

Govindan,
Thanks for your references.

Kokilam,
We do have an example of what you are saying. Kamalamba announced GBL Remembrance concert months ago. The performers and place were announced recently. Now, we are waiting for the time ;) of each item in the all day long event...
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Ponbhairavi
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#39 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by Ponbhairavi » 22 Nov 2015, 15:18

இடைச்செருகல்
: In its literary connotation means interpolation.But the structure of the word does not have anything against ( contravene ) the idea og temporariness orthe intent of keeping the place.
another suggestion is
இடை வைப்பு
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harimau
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#40 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by harimau » 22 Nov 2015, 18:28

Why not 'prathi'?

Not Tamil, of course!

I have heard 'barthi' in use to mean replacement.
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arasi
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#41 Re: Tamil word for 'placeholder'

Post by arasi » 22 Nov 2015, 20:16

Or pre-prati=earlier version? :)

VK,
For some reason, your wondering has caught on and we are all getting carried away with it. Even our pet feline chimes in, and how inexhaustible his knowledge is and in seeking it, we all know...:)
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