தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

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kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

I do not see the point. Not only Nandanar, but several others are also based on some faith. Is it the suggestion that Brahmins did not like it because they are shown in poor light? Is it not a digression about the intrinsic merit of the compositions as being lesser than those of the trinity?

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Suresh,
....story? What story? Probably you were not affected by the kind of brahmin hatred that existed in Tamil Nadu during 1940s. Brahmins sacred thread was cut; their tuft cut; the figure of rAma was garlanded with chappals. Brahmins fled from Tamil Nadu in hordes.

This is not a fiction or story - a personal experience. Kindly don't stoke the wounds by being condescending if it does not suit your line of argument.

I just listed out one reason why GKB could have been ignored by CM musicians. I have no axes to grind for or against GKB. Let us not try justify something as story line which had huge social impact bordering genocide.
Last edited by vgovindan on 22 Apr 2018, 12:01, edited 2 times in total.

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

I was not affected by that particular epidemic but have first hand experience with mob actions and the violence associated with them. I am not being condescending or belittling your experience. Please grant me that level of humanity.

But it is hugely unfair to hold GKB and his monumental work accountable for this or any similar violence.

PS: The "story" I was referring to was the fictional/allegorical story of Nandanar. It would be presumptuous of me to lecture you on the moral of the story but here goes anyway - Bhakthi transcends any "qualification" bestowed by human society.

As I see it, it was not GKB that was ignored. It was Tamil. And I feel his time is yet to come!

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

"But it is hugely unfair to hold GKB and his monumental work accountable for this or any similar violence"

I am not justifying anything - I am just conjecturing why it could have happened.

How this generation of musicians look at it, is totally different issue. But brahmin bashing - as indulged by 'great' musicians is not going to help any way.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

The literary distortion created by GKB would have probably gone unnoticed but for the great visual impact created by the movie on the masses. The movie came with Dandapani desigar ( a music idol of those days) — after the first generation of brahmin musician heroes like maharajapuram, Gnb.. Sivan, came the second generation of non brahmin musician heroes like MKT.PU chinnnappa as hero — at a time when the tamil movies ,were ridiculing the brahmin community ( N S K )(for gate collection) and fuelling a calculated hatred.
As a general rule brahmin bashing is an unfailing tool to get mass monetary success intamil nadu an d if TMK gives up brahmin bashing hisvmusical revolution would fall flat. There lies the secret of his success.see how much this props him
Up despite or probably because of his brahmin origin.

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Though this is side-tracking the thread, it must be mentioned that the present crop of liberals and left oriented brahmins - including Ram and TMK - are the products of that generation of brahmins, who by their sheer grit for survival, made it a point to prove themselves. But for the elders of that generation who suffered untold humiliations and ignominies in order to prove themselves and their progenies successful, the present generation would not be talking so boldly - again bashing brahmins. Brahmins have been whipping boys historically right from Rama's and kRshNA's time ane even before.

The irony is that mirasdar-brahmins like Rajagopalachari who could have ill-treated other caste people, went scot-free and, what more, they were hobnobbing with those very elements which were foisting atrocities over brahmins. Further irony is that religious heads did not utter a word because they did not want to be seen as prop for brahmins - they were anointed to protect sanAtana dharma - not brahmins!!

வளர்த்த கடா மார்பில் பாயுதய்யோ!
Last edited by vgovindan on 22 Apr 2018, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.

kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

ஆஹா, எவ்வளவு தீர்க்க தர்சனமாக இரண்டாயிரம் ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பே அவ்வையார் பாடினார்:
'சாதி இரண்டொழிய வேறில்லை' என்று!

kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

If GKB's theme is ignored, are his compositions of a high standard, or they have to be rejected on some other ground?

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: 22 Apr 2018, 13:29 The irony is that mirasdar-brahmins like ...
Bigger irony is that a genius mendicant thinnai brahmin like GKB is being flogged for the divide-and-rule atrocities much after his time.

rajeshnat
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat »

vgovindan wrote: 22 Apr 2018, 08:48 Rajesh,
While I gather information you asked, please be ruminating with this kRti - nA jIvAdhArA - bilahari by Maharajapuram Santhanam. An outpouring in ecstasy. How I wish the kRti is started with last sangati of pallavi, first to enhance the portrayal of the mood!
VGV,
I prefer you to give few tamil and telugu krithis where it fits your experience that it is only a composition but not an outpouring . I do agree that almost all krithis of sadguru you always have the outpouring .?

By any chance do you also have atleast one krithi where Thyagaraja has only composed but not shown an outpouring ?

Take your time Sir

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

In a socially volatile time. GKB ventured into that very volatile area, thus further fuelling the fire. He ignored warnings. It will have its own logic of reaction.

kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

GKB had a literary, poetical and musical urge that brushes aside man-made divisions and cruelties. The way dalits have been treated and are being treated has been far worse than what Brahmins have suffered. If that got the fancy of GKB and made him shape a victim and hero out of Nandanar, that is a case indeed of emotional outpouring of a contemporary social evil, which to my mind is far more poignant, realistic and relevant than bhakthi that emanates from faith. I broke my restraint as the thread has already been invaded by this theme.

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Kvc,
So, in order to remedy a social evil, one can make another - an innocent - a villain - a fictional villain.
What a convulted logic!

Give the dog a bad name and then thrash it.

I am not even for a moment suspecting GKB's intentions. But, the spectre of brahmin bashing is the unintended result.

kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

Worse things have happened in villages. I do not know whether you have lived in a village. A dalit will be required to do work, but will be an outcast and shunned for anything else. Such inhumanity, i wonder how it survived for so long. The fictional villain of GKB is taken from society, not from delirium. The dog earned its name. Brahmin bashing was done through the ages as purana after purana describes. Brahmins were killed in hordes by invading marauders. Injustice by and against Brahmins are both parts of constructed history. While evaluating music we must take our mind away from that scenario and apply musical standards. For argument's sake, if Thyagaraja also has criticised Brahmins, would his opus be looked at from that angle?

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: 22 Apr 2018, 16:43 Kvc,
So, in order to remedy a social evil, one can make another - an innocent - a villain - a fictional villain.
What a convulted logic!
The character was a heartless, exploiting lout (who is reformed at the end). And your main takeaway is that he is a poonal wearing Brahmin.

And this is from someone who is well-versed in our Vedas & Upanishads. What do you expect from the illiterate masses manipulated by our political class?

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Dumbfounded!

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

I have this idea for a play/opera of when GKB visits Thyagaraja in Tiruvaiyaru. In a sense this is like Kuchela visiting Krishna in Dwaraka. Or like Nandanar visiting Thillai. Of his excitement & trepidation as he embarks on the journey. Ends with him composing "Sabhapathilku". Think there is a wonderfully redeeming tale somewhere in there.

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Rajesh,
IMHO, as a thumb rule, it can be said that all those kRtis of tyAgarAja which have more than one caraNa as also most of the kRtis of nauka caritram and prahlAda bhakti vijayam are compositions and not outpourings. Eg.-
bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE - rIti gauLa

rajeshnat
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat »

vgovindan wrote: 25 Apr 2018, 16:54 Rajesh,
IMHO, as a thumb rule, it can be said that all those kRtis of tyAgarAja which have more than one caraNa as also most of the kRtis of nauka caritram and prahlAda bhakti vijayam are compositions and not outpourings. Eg.-
bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE - rIti gauLa
VGV
I usually come to you for answers where your answers are more lucid and more focused . This answer is quite tough,. Let me restate with your answer my earlier question in a different way

you said the krithi bAle Balendu is just composition and not outpouring.

How about these krtihis of reetigowlai

1. Nannu vidachi - T
2. Dwaithamu Sukhama - T
3. CEra rAvadEmira - T

AND
4. Janani ninuvinA - subbaraya sastri - telugu
5. paripAlayam mAm - Swati Tirunal - sanskrit
6. Tattavamariya tharamA - Papanasam Sivan - tamil
7. guruvayoor appane - Ambujam Krishna - tamil

AND a bit more Googly
8A. Raman kathai kelungal from the movie sippikkul mutham in tamil. Url is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B-T4Ys4eiI
Or
8B. RAma kanavemira from the movie swathi muthyam in telugu . Url is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ3Y4H_-g0I

Are these 7 graduated to outpourings or do they just stay as composition ? If 8A or 8B has distracted apologies sir , please do skip that answer. I gave you both flavours of your domicile tongue and your mother tongue in the same reetigowlai. I am particularly interested in in 4 to 7. 8A or 8B you can wish to skip if it has by any chance hurt the seriousness of your answer flow. Take your time Sir but please do answer for each of them (4 to 7 is a must Sir).
Last edited by rajeshnat on 26 Apr 2018, 06:25, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Rajesh,
That post of mine is incomplete and was not supposed to be posted. I must have inadvertently pressed 'submit'. Sorry for the mistake. I shall post later after taking into account your points.

Govindaswamy
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Govindaswamy »

Suresh VV
Suresh
Around 30 years ago Dr.S.Ramanathan visited Seshasayee Paper & Boards, Erode for a concert. As he had problem with his voice he gave a lecture ‘One day in the life of Thyagaraja.
He narrated a ‘story’ about the meeting of T and GKB.
When GKB visited T’s house the latter was singing his composition of the day. Rama nI samAnamevaru. After getting introduced and mutual exchange of plesantries T requested GKB to sing his AbhOgi rAga kriti on Siva (SabhApathikku vEru deivam). One of T’s shisyas had an expression of displeasure in his face. After complimenting GKB, T burst out with the song ‘evarani nirNayinchirirA’ in dEvAmrithavarshiNi’. T emphasized that Siva and VishNu are one.

Dr Ramanathan highlighted the following aspects.
Rama is the embodiment of Siva and VishNu.
The first song is in karaharapriya.
AbhOgi is janya of this.
The new rAga created by T, ex tempore is also a janya of karaharapriya.

This indirectly shows that all Gods are part of ParamAthmA.

Govindaswamy
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Govindaswamy »

Suresh VV
Suresh
Around 30 years ago Dr.S.Ramanathan visited Seshasayee Paper & Boards, Erode for a concert. As he had problem with his voice he gave a lecture ‘One day in the life of Thyagaraja.
He narrated a ‘story’ about the meeting of T and GKB.
When GKB visited T’s house the latter was singing his composition of the day. Rama nI samAnamevaru. After getting introduced and mutual exchange of plesantries T requested GKB to sing his AbhOgi rAga kriti on Siva (SabhApathikku vEru deivam). One of T’s shisyas had an expression of displeasure in his face. After complimenting GKB, T burst out with the song ‘evarani nirNayinchirirA’ in dEvAmrithavarshiNi’. T emphasized that Siva and VishNu are one.

Dr Ramanathan highlighted the following aspects.
Rama is the embodiment of Siva and VishNu.
The first song is in karaharapriya.
AbhOgi is janya of this.
The new rAga created by T, ex tempore is also a janya of karaharapriya.

This indirectly shows that all Gods are part of ParamAthmA.

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

Govindaswamy wrote: 26 Apr 2018, 08:40
When GKB visited T’s house the latter was singing his composition of the day. Rama nI samAnamevaru. After getting introduced and mutual exchange of plesantries T requested GKB to sing his AbhOgi rAga kriti on Siva (SabhApathikku vEru deivam).
Another version that I have heard is that "manasu nilpa" was sung during the morning pooja. When T asked GKB if he had a composition in Abhogi, GKB who was not even aware of the raga could only shake his head sheepishly. "Sabhapathikku" was composed on the same afternoon and sung in the evening prayer which was then admired by all.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Deleted

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

In my story, GKB is the hero. And T is somewhat the antagonist, as it were. GKB is the mendicant thinnai dweller with a deformed body and bad teeth singing songs in the language of the peasants. T is the famous prodigy composer with "own house" and hosting elaborate poojas filled with sandalwood & incense.

arasi
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by arasi »

Interesting to think on those lines, Sureshvv. To me, GKB was not 'somewhat the antagonist' but was perhaps a foil. After all, they saw the merits in each other.
The emotional richness in both their outpourings can't be denied even by those who prefer kritis in classical Sanskrit.

sureshvv
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

arasi wrote: 28 Apr 2018, 18:58 To me, GKB was not 'somewhat the antagonist' but was perhaps a foil. After all, they saw the merits in each other.
Not GKB. I was giving that role to T.
The emotional richness in both their outpourings can't be denied even by those who prefer kritis in clas
Yes. We know that now. But it may have been a different story 150 years ago. And if you go by vgovindan, CM still does not regard GKB's work at an equal level.

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

suresh,
.......if you go by vgovindan....

It is not my statement about GKB. I have clearly mentioned that it is my conjecture why GKB could have been ignored by CM musicians. I have nothing for or against GKB.

kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

But, Sri Govindan, you did make the statement that no one has equalled Thyagaraja in emotional appeal. That would be against GKB too. I respect your opinion, while not really agreeing. I am only trying to get it clarified.

rajeshnat
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat »

Govindan Sir
I(We) am (are) awaiting for your answer on post #44. Please do answer.

vgovindan
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Rajesh,

nigama SirOrthamu galgina
nija vAkkulatO, rAmA
ninnu sokka cEyu dhIruDevvaDO

In the kRti, 'sogasugA mRdanga' tyAgarAja sings "whoever is that brave, competent to make you enamoured by true words which contain the purport of vEdAnta (true words - refer to mahAvAkyas) through music to the accompaniment of laya of mRdanga?' For tyAgarAja, his ishTha dEvata - rAma - was his sole audience. He refused any monetary considerations for his music, and consequently lived in penury as an uncchavRtti brahmin.

There always existed two sets of music schools - the bhAgavata parampara following the footsteps of nArada, and the musical entertainment parampara led by tumburu - and the kinnaras. The bANas or vANar (tamil) belonged to the latter category. bhAgavata parampara had no caste connotation as such - nArada's mother was a maid serving a community of pious people. In fact nArada's mother did not know who sired her son.

However, the brahmin community which was ordained to live a life of self-denial and follow the path of jnAna, karma and bhakti took more to bhAgavata parampara which is akin to its defined life-style. While the entertainment aspect of music was the preserve of bANas, the emotional expression by the bhAgavata parampara, naturally bestowed on them more depth to music, than simple entertainment oriented music of bANas. However, bANas also had that depth of music as exemplified in the story of tiruviLaiyADal - the episode of hEmanAtha bhAgavatar.

With the decimation of this musical entertainment community (along with dancers) on the pretext of exploitation of dEvadAsi system, it fell to the lot of brahmin community to assume the entertainment (and dance) aspect of music. That, in turn resulted in decline of bhAgavata parampara led by brahmins.

tyAgarAja was an exceptional example of bhAgavata parampara who seemed to have lived under a vow to abjure any material welfare and total dedication to music oriented bhakti. Because of this vow, tyAgarAja suffered terrible privations and he poured his heart out to his chosen deity - rAma. Many of such kRtis, which seem to have been sung in a state of utter despair and helplessness, are very personal in nature and having colloquial expressions - as opposed to annamayya whose language is more literary in nature.

This state of despair found in his kRtis, together with bouts of elation and ecstasy during or after a brief respite due to darSan of Lord, is the result of abject surrender - Atma nivEdana. This is what I elsewhere referred as self-decimation. IMHO, such an Atma-nivEdana is the pre-requisite of an 'outpouring'. However, it is not, IMHO, appropriate to call all kRtis of tyAgarAja as outpourings. But, as a thumb-rule, one can say that such outpourings or inspirational kRtis have typically only one caraNa and very personal in nature - mostly in first and/or second person - and not in third person - like a stuti.

You have raised a doubt whether other kRtis in the same rAga can be considered as outpourings too. IMHO, a rAga is a vehicle or a medium only. While the contour of rAga is well defined, the mano-dharma of the composer (or artist) takes a totally different appeal
of the same rAga based on the emphasis and emotional depth. (This has been highlighted in the film 'SankarAbharaNa' through the example of word 'ammA'. This word uttered by a child crying in hunger, a child in fright, a child begging mother for a favour, and also the call of a street beggar.) The same word uttered in a stuti (third person) has a totally different modulation.

Further, in other form(s) of art - like drawing and painting, there is no intermediary between artist and connoisseur. But in music where there is mostly an intermediary (unless the composer himself is the artist), the element of depth and/or emphasis that could be conveyed by the artist (as intermediary) also influences as to how the rasika perceives the rendering. In fact, an artist who understands the efficacy of nAdOpAsana (music for music's sake) for musical exposition and applies that (nAdOpAsana) as the foundation for such exposition, can really enhance the original composition's real (and intended) depth and create wonders. But such enhancements are rarely found even among senior levels - when they feel constrained by their inability to transcend the 'paddhati'. Therefore, a rasika perceiving a kRti to be emotionally appealing as (bordering as) outpouring, can have multiple reasons. The other more important reasons why the appeal (as to how a composition is perceived) varies between rasikas widely depending on the level of their art appreciation and their own preferences.

Often times, compositions of certain composers - like MD - may not be truly appreciated because of esoteric language used. For example, I keep wondering as to what prompted MD to compose a kRti like 'tyAgarAjE kRtyAkRtyam'. In that kRti, he makes a mention 'vidEha kaivalyam yAmi' - I am proceeding towards disembodied kaivalyam (oneness). Such statements are very exceptional in nature - rather they are autobiographical predictions - made by a person who is already jIvan mukta. Such statements are very personal and confidential in nature. Such kRtis go beyond even outpourings. I still keep wondering whether MD had really intended that kRti to be rendered by anyone else. There are, if my memory serves me right - some other similar kRti(s) of MD addressed to Lord subrahmaNya also.

Coming to GKB, I have not gone deeply into his kRtis. But, suffice it to say that whatever I am familiar with - particularly with my advantage of having knowledge of both telugu and tamil - tyAgarAja surely stands apart. As I have said earlier appreciation of any rendition as perceived by any rasika varies wildly depending on various factors I have mentioned above.

Therefore, give me the benefit of doubt and do not take my statements as dogmatic. I have my own convictions and I may have my own biases too.

Hope I have tried to explain my stand - if it does not satisfy you, the fault could be mine.

(Spelling and grammatical errors - please excuse)

rajeshnat
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat »

VGV
I think your angle of CM listening has few prerequisites which have a firm foundation on a combination of religion , rama bhakthi and Bhagavatha puranam etc. I am perhaps stating the below points on more pragmatic considerations

1. sadguru Thyagaraja apart from his heavy mix of outpourings and light mix of compositions created an extra ordinary sishya parampara . He had disciples like manambuchavadi , Walajahpet venkataramana bhagavathar , Umayalpuram bhagavatharas, thillaisthanam, lalgudi rama iyer etc . That was generation 1. Then generation 2 with patnam , mysore sadashiva rao, mysore vasudevacharya and then generation 3 of great delivery practioners starting with Poochi,ariyakudi, chembai, ariyakudi , mvi , each of them spent their 60% lifetime venerating and only repeatedly practising T Krithis.

Note:There is a quick trace that stuck me now i wanted to share. Many years back I , vk and cml talked.(Read Post #52 to 58 with Vk and CML rocking, i wish cml is here right now active in this thread)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9292&p=117578&hilit ... nt#p117578

2. Unfortunately for other vageyakkaras like GKB, PSivan etc many a times that musical intensity does not come . While few of todays musician do get that thamizh musical feel still there is a kind of repeated conditioning that has come maximum only with T krithis and not that intensity is seen with other vageykkara's krithis . Thamizh krithis are sung to capture more thamizh diaspora rasikas , it is more a marketing gimmick spearheaded by tv channels .Personally I love and adore few GKB and Psivan krithis like for example innamum sandeha padalAmO/devi neeye thunai in keeravani and Karthikeya kangeya in todi . Krithis like devi neeeye thunai in keeravani and karthikeya kangeya in todi is more defining than the best of trinity krithis . I would characterize taking your definition that it was more outpouring than composition.

3. Also I am wondering and loud thinking since you know about GKB bit more of his lifestyle where he participated with thamizh thata U ve Su etc there is more of commoner feel that has come to you unlike T where the commoner feel/lifestyle is not talked . At the most we hear the narration of say T getting hit by his elder brother(commoner feel) but the narration ends as a small prelude with the more spiritual and religious trace of T searching for rAmA Idol. The colloquialism and commoner narration of other composers other than T vs narration of always staying with only rama bhakthi for T is making many of us tilt and experience T far more .

4. I was expecting you to answer that the below krithis that i mentioned in my previous post
----------->> 4. Janani ninuvinA - subbaraya sastri - telugu
----------->> 5. paripAlayam mAm - Swati Tirunal - sanskrit
----------->> 6. Tattavamariya tharamA - Papanasam Sivan - tamil
----------->> 7. guruvayoor appane - Ambujam Krishna - tamil

DO the above krithis qualify as compositions and not graduate into the league of T composition bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE which you characterized as outpouring and not composition . If it is ok you can still answer if 4 to 7 qualify whether they are outpourings or do they just stay as compositions.

5. Personally I am very glad that the carnatic ecosystem has standardized on our favourite vaggeyakkara Sadguru Thyagaraja as flagship vageyakkara. After all in future , vidwans and vidushis will only have a career of 25 to 50 singing years. Learning lot of PD, GKB, AC,MD, PSivan,ST in early years and not learning and practicing enough T krithis is a long term musical disaster for your grandchildren and my child. We will have more TV tamasha but not concert experience, a certain symmetry with repeated practice helps for sure.

My apologies if I have miscommunicated . I still remember you when we met for the first time in Nageswaran house you said some thing very profound which you forgot to mention in your earlier post . Thyagaraja is all about anurAgA bhakthi , i asked you what is anurAgA , and you said anurAgA is about deep love. Do we all live long enough to appreciate and spend time with say my top three A plus quality composers like T,MD and Papanasam sivan - not possible at all.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: 02 May 2018, 13:23 For tyAgarAja, his ishTha dEvata - rAma - was his sole audience. He refused any monetary considerations for his music, and consequently lived in penury as an uncchavRtti brahmin.
I have heard that Thyagaraja was the plaintiff in a legal action in the Civil Court pertaining to some land holdings. Prof. Sambamuurthy's book speaks of a house partition done by the Revenue Department but not much more in detail. I have also heard that he was a tax paying citizen. May be someone can shed some light on this,

kvchellappa
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Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

The point made was that the quality and intensity of bhava was more in T's songs by a yawning gap from the songs of others. As I see, that case has not been convincingly set out. Why is it necessary that bhava must relate only to bhakti (even there the case is not set on cast iron)? A song like thunbam nerkaiyil has sufficient bhava to move a listener without comparing it in any way to any other composition. Perhaps the bhava in Syama Sastri's songs is more intense. As I was listening to mayamma today, it was divine.
It does not seem to matter whether one sang for money or not, or how one lived. The art of Ravi Varma is not any the less because he was a king. Or, for that matter the songs of Swathi Thirunal. The points must be on the lyrics and the music.
As pointed out, T had a good lineage and a lot of uzhaippu has gone onto his oeuvre. Songs like Thiruvadi saranam and sabhapathikku veru deivam have already established themselves. If they are not of the same standard as T's, it has not been explained why. It is not possible to go by the reputation of the judge; the case must be made out.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

kvchellappa wrote: 02 May 2018, 16:57 If they are not of the same standard as T's, it has not been explained why. It is not possible to go by the reputation of the judge; the case must be made out.
This is not an objective MCQ type of question. There is only 1 judge & that is you.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Sale of a house by Tyagaraja :-
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14663&hilit=tyagaraja+palm+leaf


Though popularly known as Tyagaraja, his name was Tyagabrahma Iyer as indicated in the document signed by him! Photograph of ‘the sale deed inscribed on a plamleaf and SIGNED BY HIM’ is available at:-
http://www.eemaata.com/images/may2009/t ... le_doc.jpg

As per the Sale Deed, Tyagabrama Iyer sold his house in 1828, i.e. when he was 61 years of age. Curiously the document is in Tamil, though Tanjavur at that time was ruled by the Marathas and the mother tongue of Tyagabrama Iyer was Telugu. It is not known whether his signature is in Tamil or Telugu.

Here is the translation, attempted by me, of the Sale Deed and the initial note seen in the photograph:-

“Palm Leaf document with Sri Tyagaraja’s signature was found in the family of the hereditary Village Administrator of Tiruvaiyaru Kalyana Mahal Palace.

“On this 31st day of December 1828, 11th day of Margazhi month Sarvadhari year, the Sale Deed given by both of us - Tyagabrahmaiyer son of Ramabrahmaiyer and Subbhabrahamaiyer son of Panchanathabrahman residing in Tirumanjana Street of Tiruvaiyaru, to Sowbhagyavati Balammabai Ammal, daughter of Sowbhagyavati Lagubai Amma of Tanjavur City, covering the residential house and land property, owned by both of us, located in the Garuda Vastu western portion of Tirumanjana Street of the abovementioned village, sold to you as per this Deed for 32 souverign and 3 ¾ fanam, equal to Silver Rupee 50 5/16 and 3 ¾ fanam, and cash received by us in the presence of the Tiruvaiyaru Rajakumaratthi Sowbhagya (Uba)yaThaimar’s Palace Shroff Ayyalu Naicken which may be considered as compensation in full. Agreed as mentioned above, we, Tyagabrahmaiyer and Subbhabrahmaiyer, have given this Cash Receipt for the Sale to Sowbhagyavati Balammabai Ammal, daughter of Sowbhagyavati Lagubai Ammal.

(Sd.) Tyagabrahmaiyer (Sd.) Subbhabrahmaiyer

Witnesses:-
Venkitarama Sastri of the above Street - Witness
Sambasivaiyer of the above Street - Witness
Tiruvadi Venkitaramaiyer - Witness
Witness - Panchanata Gurukal, Son of Sama Gurukal

In the presence of: Shroff Ayyalu Naicken.”

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by MaheshS »

sureshvv wrote: 02 May 2018, 16:41
vgovindan wrote: 02 May 2018, 13:23 For tyAgarAja, his ishTha dEvata - rAma - was his sole audience. He refused any monetary considerations for his music, and consequently lived in penury as an uncchavRtti brahmin.
I have heard that Thyagaraja was the plaintiff in a legal action in the Civil Court pertaining to some land holdings. Prof. Sambamuurthy's book speaks of a house partition done by the Revenue Department but not much more in detail. I have also heard that he was a tax paying citizen. May be someone can shed some light on this,
There is ample proof that he did NOT live in penury as suggested by Govindan sir. He was NOT poor by any standards. He had lands and got benefits from it. He had a wife. He had a child. He had quarrels with his brother regarding property, in Tamil, sothu sandai. All documented with proof. This is all part of hagiography ala Najiva Dhara etc, started in the early 20th century.

This is in NO way diminishing the stature of Saint Thygaraja or his divine compositions.

Back to topic, being a Tamilian, with a very limited understanding of Telegu, I'd rather skip his krithi for a gana in Tamil, where I can understand and appreciate the lyrics *as* well. Musical? Lyrics? Gramatics? Emotion Outpouring? Yeah yeah, but Tamil hits where it hurts. So maybe I am the poorer for that, so be it.

Nanmayum Selvamum Naalum Nallkumay
Thinmayum Paavamum Sidhaindhu Thaeyumae
Jenmamum Maranamum Indri Theerumaey
Inmayey Rama Endra Irandu Ezhuthinaal

Aha ha. Beat that :)

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Unchavritti (उञ्छवृत्ति) refers to collecting grains from the fields after harvest.

As collecting grains from the fields was a difficult exercise, 'they' turned to begging - calling it as unchavritti. Stories were spread that it would be a sin to turn away a unchavritti beggar.

And, nowadays unchavritti has become a pompous act.
Real unchavritti is done, even now, in a few remote villages by Irulas !

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

I am sure the neighborhood people were lining up in droves for the opportunity to donate for the Unchavritti when T's group came around!

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

(141)
நிதி சால சுகமா !

மனைவி மக்களில்லை; மனதுக்கு பாரமில்லை.
மனையுண்டு படுக்க, மன்னன் அளித்த கொடை.
மதியத்தில் சுற்றிவந்தால் மடிநிறைய சோறுண்டு !
நிதியெதற்கு எனக்கு? நிதி சால சுகமா... ஆ...ஆ... !

ப்ரத்யக்ஷம் பாலா,
22.06.2011.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by arasi »

போதுமென்ற மனம் எனக்கு, ராமா!
ஏதும் வேண்டிலேன், உன்னருளே
போதும்! நீ தரும் உண்ணும் உடையும்
ஏதும் குறையிலா வாழ்வும் உண்டே!

ஆதலால், நிதி சால சுகமா, என்பேன்...

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

sureshvv wrote: 02 May 2018, 22:06 I am sure the neighborhood people were lining up in droves for the opportunity to donate for the Unchavritti when T's group came around!
(279)
தினப்படி

குடுகுடுப் பாண்டி வந்தார் - பின்
டுருடுரு உறுமி மேளம் !
அடுத்தது பூம்பூம் மாடு;
தொடர்ந்தது தொம்பங் கூத்து !

இல்லை எனச் சொல்லாது
எல்லார்க்கும் இட்ட பின்னே
மிஞ்சியதைக் கொடுத்தாள்
உஞ்சு வ்ருத்திக் கலைஞருக்கு.

ப்ரத்யக்ஷம் பாலா,
21.11.2013.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

There seems to be a concerted effort to denigrate tyAgarAja and to show him in poor light - probably with the intent to make tamil kRtis and tamil singing more popular. tamil is a great language by itself; it does not need any props, particularly by showing in poor light composers of other languages?

I can see the same pattern as adopted by dravidian politicians by showing Hindu religion as a whole in poor light im order to prop up dravidian psyche. The result is there for all to see.

My sincere advice is - please adopt a positive attitude towards tamil kRtis and singing in tamil. Please avoid any negative approach - this will be self-defeating.

For example, the heading itself - say தமிழில் பாடுவோம்.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

vgovindan wrote: 03 May 2018, 04:14... Please avoid any negative approach - this will be self-defeating. For example, the heading itself - say தமிழில் பாடுவோம்.
The heading, 'தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?' is a rightful lament by a rasika. The first post is worth reading again.

'தமிழில் பாடுவோம்' ? --
It is for the musicians to realize, and say this.


As for the 'negative approach', one can find plenty of 'self-defeating' statements !

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

vgovindan wrote: 03 May 2018, 04:14 There seems to be a concerted effort to denigrate tyAgarAja and to show him in poor light - probably with the intent to make tamil kRtis and tamil singing more popular. tamil is a great language by itself; it does not need any props, particularly by showing in poor light composers of other languages?
I don't think Thyagaraja was denigrated by anyone here. Just setting some facts right, so people have a clearer picture of the great composer. His work speaks for itself and he does not need any additional props either.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat »

Govindan sir,
you said "IMHO, a rAga is a vehicle or a medium only. While the contour of rAga is well defined, the mano-dharma of the composer (or artist) takes a totally different appeal of the same rAga based on the emphasis and emotional depth."

On those lines , I have also put four links of different artists

4. I was expecting you to answer that the below krithis that i mentioned in my previous post
----------->> 4. Janani ninuvinA - subbaraya sastri - telugu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNl6F1y9FbI by msamma
----------->> 5. paripAlayam mAm - Swati Tirunal - sanskrit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5UbKdyvNn4 by gnb
----------->> 6. Tattavamariya tharamA - Papanasam Sivan - tamil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLT5X8v1Qe0 by skr
----------->> 7. guruvayoor appane - Ambujam Krishna - tamil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyf0hPH3CqQ by santhanam

DO the above krithis qualify as just compositions or have they graduated into the league of T composition bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE which you characterized as outpouring and not composition .

kvchellappa
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Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa »

Absolutely, there is no intention to denigrate Thyagaraja. Thyagaraja was a great renaissance composer and the state of CM today owes immensely to him. All that is being argued is let us not fix CM at a point in time or confined to one or two composers or to any one language. We will respect greatness in people that is authentic. We do not have to mystify, deify or be intolerant of any criticism. It is untenable that no one would ever bring the same magic to CM like Thyagaraja. If it has not happened, it can still happen. Even those (musicians) who are vocal about Tamizh Isai never denigrated Thyagaraja or failed to sing his songs. If anyone does not learn and sing Thaygaraja, the loss is monumentally his. It is TN that hosted Thyagaraja and it is a large number of Tamizh musicians that popularised his compositions.
There is nothing amiss about the title. The comment came in the article because not a single Tamizh song was sung. The intention is certainly not that only Tamizh songs must be sung.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

To understand and appreciate the present situation, language-wise classification of the songs rendered in recent CM programmes that are covered in ‘Concert Reviews’ would be of help.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 03 May 2018, 09:19 To understand and appreciate the present situation, language-wise classification of the songs rendered in recent CM programmes that are covered in ‘Concert Reviews’ would be of help.
Not sure about that. May become like our reservation system :D

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan »

Rajesh,
"........Do we all live long enough to appreciate and spend time with say my top three A plus quality composers like T,MD and Papanasam sivan - not possible at all."

Whether we like or not, whether we are conscious of it or not, whether we have time for it or not, we, humans are rushing towards that great anonymity willy nilly. If we do it consciously, the journey itself becomes the goal. The meaning of our struggle becomes clear.

https://youtu.be/Fl1L1uCDojg

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