தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

kvchellappa
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#26 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 22 Apr 2018, 10:42

I do not see the point. Not only Nandanar, but several others are also based on some faith. Is it the suggestion that Brahmins did not like it because they are shown in poor light? Is it not a digression about the intrinsic merit of the compositions as being lesser than those of the trinity?
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vgovindan
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#27 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 22 Apr 2018, 11:07

Suresh,
....story? What story? Probably you were not affected by the kind of brahmin hatred that existed in Tamil Nadu during 1940s. Brahmins sacred thread was cut; their tuft cut; the figure of rAma was garlanded with chappals. Brahmins fled from Tamil Nadu in hordes.

This is not a fiction or story - a personal experience. Kindly don't stoke the wounds by being condescending if it does not suit your line of argument.

I just listed out one reason why GKB could have been ignored by CM musicians. I have no axes to grind for or against GKB. Let us not try justify something as story line which had huge social impact bordering genocide.
Last edited by vgovindan on 22 Apr 2018, 12:01, edited 2 times in total.
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sureshvv
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#28 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 22 Apr 2018, 11:42

I was not affected by that particular epidemic but have first hand experience with mob actions and the violence associated with them. I am not being condescending or belittling your experience. Please grant me that level of humanity.

But it is hugely unfair to hold GKB and his monumental work accountable for this or any similar violence.

PS: The "story" I was referring to was the fictional/allegorical story of Nandanar. It would be presumptuous of me to lecture you on the moral of the story but here goes anyway - Bhakthi transcends any "qualification" bestowed by human society.

As I see it, it was not GKB that was ignored. It was Tamil. And I feel his time is yet to come!
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vgovindan
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#29 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 22 Apr 2018, 11:49

"But it is hugely unfair to hold GKB and his monumental work accountable for this or any similar violence"

I am not justifying anything - I am just conjecturing why it could have happened.

How this generation of musicians look at it, is totally different issue. But brahmin bashing - as indulged by 'great' musicians is not going to help any way.
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#30 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Ponbhairavi » 22 Apr 2018, 13:10

The literary distortion created by GKB would have probably gone unnoticed but for the great visual impact created by the movie on the masses. The movie came with Dandapani desigar ( a music idol of those days) — after the first generation of brahmin musician heroes like maharajapuram, Gnb.. Sivan, came the second generation of non brahmin musician heroes like MKT.PU chinnnappa as hero — at a time when the tamil movies ,were ridiculing the brahmin community ( N S K )(for gate collection) and fuelling a calculated hatred.
As a general rule brahmin bashing is an unfailing tool to get mass monetary success intamil nadu an d if TMK gives up brahmin bashing hisvmusical revolution would fall flat. There lies the secret of his success.see how much this props him
Up despite or probably because of his brahmin origin.
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vgovindan
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#31 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 22 Apr 2018, 13:29

Though this is side-tracking the thread, it must be mentioned that the present crop of liberals and left oriented brahmins - including Ram and TMK - are the products of that generation of brahmins, who by their sheer grit for survival, made it a point to prove themselves. But for the elders of that generation who suffered untold humiliations and ignominies in order to prove themselves and their progenies successful, the present generation would not be talking so boldly - again bashing brahmins. Brahmins have been whipping boys historically right from Rama's and kRshNA's time ane even before.

The irony is that mirasdar-brahmins like Rajagopalachari who could have ill-treated other caste people, went scot-free and, what more, they were hobnobbing with those very elements which were foisting atrocities over brahmins. Further irony is that religious heads did not utter a word because they did not want to be seen as prop for brahmins - they were anointed to protect sanAtana dharma - not brahmins!!

வளர்த்த கடா மார்பில் பாயுதய்யோ!
Last edited by vgovindan on 22 Apr 2018, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
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kvchellappa
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#32 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 22 Apr 2018, 13:40

ஆஹா, எவ்வளவு தீர்க்க தர்சனமாக இரண்டாயிரம் ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பே அவ்வையார் பாடினார்:
'சாதி இரண்டொழிய வேறில்லை' என்று!
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kvchellappa
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#33 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 22 Apr 2018, 13:42

If GKB's theme is ignored, are his compositions of a high standard, or they have to be rejected on some other ground?
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sureshvv
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#34 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 22 Apr 2018, 13:52

vgovindan wrote:
22 Apr 2018, 13:29
The irony is that mirasdar-brahmins like ...
Bigger irony is that a genius mendicant thinnai brahmin like GKB is being flogged for the divide-and-rule atrocities much after his time.
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rajeshnat
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#35 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat » 22 Apr 2018, 14:05

vgovindan wrote:
22 Apr 2018, 08:48
Rajesh,
While I gather information you asked, please be ruminating with this kRti - nA jIvAdhArA - bilahari by Maharajapuram Santhanam. An outpouring in ecstasy. How I wish the kRti is started with last sangati of pallavi, first to enhance the portrayal of the mood!
VGV,
I prefer you to give few tamil and telugu krithis where it fits your experience that it is only a composition but not an outpouring . I do agree that almost all krithis of sadguru you always have the outpouring .?

By any chance do you also have atleast one krithi where Thyagaraja has only composed but not shown an outpouring ?

Take your time Sir
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vgovindan
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#36 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 22 Apr 2018, 14:17

In a socially volatile time. GKB ventured into that very volatile area, thus further fuelling the fire. He ignored warnings. It will have its own logic of reaction.
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kvchellappa
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#37 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 22 Apr 2018, 16:26

GKB had a literary, poetical and musical urge that brushes aside man-made divisions and cruelties. The way dalits have been treated and are being treated has been far worse than what Brahmins have suffered. If that got the fancy of GKB and made him shape a victim and hero out of Nandanar, that is a case indeed of emotional outpouring of a contemporary social evil, which to my mind is far more poignant, realistic and relevant than bhakthi that emanates from faith. I broke my restraint as the thread has already been invaded by this theme.
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vgovindan
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#38 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 22 Apr 2018, 16:43

Kvc,
So, in order to remedy a social evil, one can make another - an innocent - a villain - a fictional villain.
What a convulted logic!

Give the dog a bad name and then thrash it.

I am not even for a moment suspecting GKB's intentions. But, the spectre of brahmin bashing is the unintended result.
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kvchellappa
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#39 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 22 Apr 2018, 17:52

Worse things have happened in villages. I do not know whether you have lived in a village. A dalit will be required to do work, but will be an outcast and shunned for anything else. Such inhumanity, i wonder how it survived for so long. The fictional villain of GKB is taken from society, not from delirium. The dog earned its name. Brahmin bashing was done through the ages as purana after purana describes. Brahmins were killed in hordes by invading marauders. Injustice by and against Brahmins are both parts of constructed history. While evaluating music we must take our mind away from that scenario and apply musical standards. For argument's sake, if Thyagaraja also has criticised Brahmins, would his opus be looked at from that angle?
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sureshvv
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#40 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 22 Apr 2018, 18:40

vgovindan wrote:
22 Apr 2018, 16:43
Kvc,
So, in order to remedy a social evil, one can make another - an innocent - a villain - a fictional villain.
What a convulted logic!
The character was a heartless, exploiting lout (who is reformed at the end). And your main takeaway is that he is a poonal wearing Brahmin.

And this is from someone who is well-versed in our Vedas & Upanishads. What do you expect from the illiterate masses manipulated by our political class?
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vgovindan
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#41 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 22 Apr 2018, 18:46

Dumbfounded!
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sureshvv
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#42 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 22 Apr 2018, 20:27

I have this idea for a play/opera of when GKB visits Thyagaraja in Tiruvaiyaru. In a sense this is like Kuchela visiting Krishna in Dwaraka. Or like Nandanar visiting Thillai. Of his excitement & trepidation as he embarks on the journey. Ends with him composing "Sabhapathilku". Think there is a wonderfully redeeming tale somewhere in there.
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vgovindan
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#43 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 25 Apr 2018, 16:54

Rajesh,
IMHO, as a thumb rule, it can be said that all those kRtis of tyAgarAja which have more than one caraNa as also most of the kRtis of nauka caritram and prahlAda bhakti vijayam are compositions and not outpourings. Eg.-
bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE - rIti gauLa
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rajeshnat
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#44 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat » 25 Apr 2018, 18:32

vgovindan wrote:
25 Apr 2018, 16:54
Rajesh,
IMHO, as a thumb rule, it can be said that all those kRtis of tyAgarAja which have more than one caraNa as also most of the kRtis of nauka caritram and prahlAda bhakti vijayam are compositions and not outpourings. Eg.-
bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE - rIti gauLa
VGV
I usually come to you for answers where your answers are more lucid and more focused . This answer is quite tough,. Let me restate with your answer my earlier question in a different way

you said the krithi bAle Balendu is just composition and not outpouring.

How about these krtihis of reetigowlai

1. Nannu vidachi - T
2. Dwaithamu Sukhama - T
3. CEra rAvadEmira - T

AND
4. Janani ninuvinA - subbaraya sastri - telugu
5. paripAlayam mAm - Swati Tirunal - sanskrit
6. Tattavamariya tharamA - Papanasam Sivan - tamil
7. guruvayoor appane - Ambujam Krishna - tamil

AND a bit more Googly
8A. Raman kathai kelungal from the movie sippikkul mutham in tamil. Url is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B-T4Ys4eiI
Or
8B. RAma kanavemira from the movie swathi muthyam in telugu . Url is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ3Y4H_-g0I

Are these 7 graduated to outpourings or do they just stay as composition ? If 8A or 8B has distracted apologies sir , please do skip that answer. I gave you both flavours of your domicile tongue and your mother tongue in the same reetigowlai. I am particularly interested in in 4 to 7. 8A or 8B you can wish to skip if it has by any chance hurt the seriousness of your answer flow. Take your time Sir but please do answer for each of them (4 to 7 is a must Sir).
Last edited by rajeshnat on 26 Apr 2018, 06:25, edited 1 time in total.
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vgovindan
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#45 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 25 Apr 2018, 19:41

Rajesh,
That post of mine is incomplete and was not supposed to be posted. I must have inadvertently pressed 'submit'. Sorry for the mistake. I shall post later after taking into account your points.
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#46 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Govindaswamy » 26 Apr 2018, 08:40

Suresh VV
Suresh
Around 30 years ago Dr.S.Ramanathan visited Seshasayee Paper & Boards, Erode for a concert. As he had problem with his voice he gave a lecture ‘One day in the life of Thyagaraja.
He narrated a ‘story’ about the meeting of T and GKB.
When GKB visited T’s house the latter was singing his composition of the day. Rama nI samAnamevaru. After getting introduced and mutual exchange of plesantries T requested GKB to sing his AbhOgi rAga kriti on Siva (SabhApathikku vEru deivam). One of T’s shisyas had an expression of displeasure in his face. After complimenting GKB, T burst out with the song ‘evarani nirNayinchirirA’ in dEvAmrithavarshiNi’. T emphasized that Siva and VishNu are one.

Dr Ramanathan highlighted the following aspects.
Rama is the embodiment of Siva and VishNu.
The first song is in karaharapriya.
AbhOgi is janya of this.
The new rAga created by T, ex tempore is also a janya of karaharapriya.

This indirectly shows that all Gods are part of ParamAthmA.
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#47 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Govindaswamy » 26 Apr 2018, 08:50

Suresh VV
Suresh
Around 30 years ago Dr.S.Ramanathan visited Seshasayee Paper & Boards, Erode for a concert. As he had problem with his voice he gave a lecture ‘One day in the life of Thyagaraja.
He narrated a ‘story’ about the meeting of T and GKB.
When GKB visited T’s house the latter was singing his composition of the day. Rama nI samAnamevaru. After getting introduced and mutual exchange of plesantries T requested GKB to sing his AbhOgi rAga kriti on Siva (SabhApathikku vEru deivam). One of T’s shisyas had an expression of displeasure in his face. After complimenting GKB, T burst out with the song ‘evarani nirNayinchirirA’ in dEvAmrithavarshiNi’. T emphasized that Siva and VishNu are one.

Dr Ramanathan highlighted the following aspects.
Rama is the embodiment of Siva and VishNu.
The first song is in karaharapriya.
AbhOgi is janya of this.
The new rAga created by T, ex tempore is also a janya of karaharapriya.

This indirectly shows that all Gods are part of ParamAthmA.
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sureshvv
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#48 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 26 Apr 2018, 10:35

Govindaswamy wrote:
26 Apr 2018, 08:40

When GKB visited T’s house the latter was singing his composition of the day. Rama nI samAnamevaru. After getting introduced and mutual exchange of plesantries T requested GKB to sing his AbhOgi rAga kriti on Siva (SabhApathikku vEru deivam).
Another version that I have heard is that "manasu nilpa" was sung during the morning pooja. When T asked GKB if he had a composition in Abhogi, GKB who was not even aware of the raga could only shake his head sheepishly. "Sabhapathikku" was composed on the same afternoon and sung in the evening prayer which was then admired by all.
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#49 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Ponbhairavi » 26 Apr 2018, 10:41

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sureshvv
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#50 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 26 Apr 2018, 12:10

In my story, GKB is the hero. And T is somewhat the antagonist, as it were. GKB is the mendicant thinnai dweller with a deformed body and bad teeth singing songs in the language of the peasants. T is the famous prodigy composer with "own house" and hosting elaborate poojas filled with sandalwood & incense.
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