தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

arasi
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#51 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by arasi » 28 Apr 2018, 18:58

Interesting to think on those lines, Sureshvv. To me, GKB was not 'somewhat the antagonist' but was perhaps a foil. After all, they saw the merits in each other.
The emotional richness in both their outpourings can't be denied even by those who prefer kritis in classical Sanskrit.
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#52 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 28 Apr 2018, 23:40

arasi wrote:
28 Apr 2018, 18:58
To me, GKB was not 'somewhat the antagonist' but was perhaps a foil. After all, they saw the merits in each other.
Not GKB. I was giving that role to T.
The emotional richness in both their outpourings can't be denied even by those who prefer kritis in clas
Yes. We know that now. But it may have been a different story 150 years ago. And if you go by vgovindan, CM still does not regard GKB's work at an equal level.
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#53 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 29 Apr 2018, 08:13

suresh,
.......if you go by vgovindan....

It is not my statement about GKB. I have clearly mentioned that it is my conjecture why GKB could have been ignored by CM musicians. I have nothing for or against GKB.
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#54 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 29 Apr 2018, 14:49

But, Sri Govindan, you did make the statement that no one has equalled Thyagaraja in emotional appeal. That would be against GKB too. I respect your opinion, while not really agreeing. I am only trying to get it clarified.
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rajeshnat
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#55 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat » 01 May 2018, 12:33

Govindan Sir
I(We) am (are) awaiting for your answer on post #44. Please do answer.
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#56 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 02 May 2018, 13:23

Rajesh,

nigama SirOrthamu galgina
nija vAkkulatO, rAmA
ninnu sokka cEyu dhIruDevvaDO

In the kRti, 'sogasugA mRdanga' tyAgarAja sings "whoever is that brave, competent to make you enamoured by true words which contain the purport of vEdAnta (true words - refer to mahAvAkyas) through music to the accompaniment of laya of mRdanga?' For tyAgarAja, his ishTha dEvata - rAma - was his sole audience. He refused any monetary considerations for his music, and consequently lived in penury as an uncchavRtti brahmin.

There always existed two sets of music schools - the bhAgavata parampara following the footsteps of nArada, and the musical entertainment parampara led by tumburu - and the kinnaras. The bANas or vANar (tamil) belonged to the latter category. bhAgavata parampara had no caste connotation as such - nArada's mother was a maid serving a community of pious people. In fact nArada's mother did not know who sired her son.

However, the brahmin community which was ordained to live a life of self-denial and follow the path of jnAna, karma and bhakti took more to bhAgavata parampara which is akin to its defined life-style. While the entertainment aspect of music was the preserve of bANas, the emotional expression by the bhAgavata parampara, naturally bestowed on them more depth to music, than simple entertainment oriented music of bANas. However, bANas also had that depth of music as exemplified in the story of tiruviLaiyADal - the episode of hEmanAtha bhAgavatar.

With the decimation of this musical entertainment community (along with dancers) on the pretext of exploitation of dEvadAsi system, it fell to the lot of brahmin community to assume the entertainment (and dance) aspect of music. That, in turn resulted in decline of bhAgavata parampara led by brahmins.

tyAgarAja was an exceptional example of bhAgavata parampara who seemed to have lived under a vow to abjure any material welfare and total dedication to music oriented bhakti. Because of this vow, tyAgarAja suffered terrible privations and he poured his heart out to his chosen deity - rAma. Many of such kRtis, which seem to have been sung in a state of utter despair and helplessness, are very personal in nature and having colloquial expressions - as opposed to annamayya whose language is more literary in nature.

This state of despair found in his kRtis, together with bouts of elation and ecstasy during or after a brief respite due to darSan of Lord, is the result of abject surrender - Atma nivEdana. This is what I elsewhere referred as self-decimation. IMHO, such an Atma-nivEdana is the pre-requisite of an 'outpouring'. However, it is not, IMHO, appropriate to call all kRtis of tyAgarAja as outpourings. But, as a thumb-rule, one can say that such outpourings or inspirational kRtis have typically only one caraNa and very personal in nature - mostly in first and/or second person - and not in third person - like a stuti.

You have raised a doubt whether other kRtis in the same rAga can be considered as outpourings too. IMHO, a rAga is a vehicle or a medium only. While the contour of rAga is well defined, the mano-dharma of the composer (or artist) takes a totally different appeal
of the same rAga based on the emphasis and emotional depth. (This has been highlighted in the film 'SankarAbharaNa' through the example of word 'ammA'. This word uttered by a child crying in hunger, a child in fright, a child begging mother for a favour, and also the call of a street beggar.) The same word uttered in a stuti (third person) has a totally different modulation.

Further, in other form(s) of art - like drawing and painting, there is no intermediary between artist and connoisseur. But in music where there is mostly an intermediary (unless the composer himself is the artist), the element of depth and/or emphasis that could be conveyed by the artist (as intermediary) also influences as to how the rasika perceives the rendering. In fact, an artist who understands the efficacy of nAdOpAsana (music for music's sake) for musical exposition and applies that (nAdOpAsana) as the foundation for such exposition, can really enhance the original composition's real (and intended) depth and create wonders. But such enhancements are rarely found even among senior levels - when they feel constrained by their inability to transcend the 'paddhati'. Therefore, a rasika perceiving a kRti to be emotionally appealing as (bordering as) outpouring, can have multiple reasons. The other more important reasons why the appeal (as to how a composition is perceived) varies between rasikas widely depending on the level of their art appreciation and their own preferences.

Often times, compositions of certain composers - like MD - may not be truly appreciated because of esoteric language used. For example, I keep wondering as to what prompted MD to compose a kRti like 'tyAgarAjE kRtyAkRtyam'. In that kRti, he makes a mention 'vidEha kaivalyam yAmi' - I am proceeding towards disembodied kaivalyam (oneness). Such statements are very exceptional in nature - rather they are autobiographical predictions - made by a person who is already jIvan mukta. Such statements are very personal and confidential in nature. Such kRtis go beyond even outpourings. I still keep wondering whether MD had really intended that kRti to be rendered by anyone else. There are, if my memory serves me right - some other similar kRti(s) of MD addressed to Lord subrahmaNya also.

Coming to GKB, I have not gone deeply into his kRtis. But, suffice it to say that whatever I am familiar with - particularly with my advantage of having knowledge of both telugu and tamil - tyAgarAja surely stands apart. As I have said earlier appreciation of any rendition as perceived by any rasika varies wildly depending on various factors I have mentioned above.

Therefore, give me the benefit of doubt and do not take my statements as dogmatic. I have my own convictions and I may have my own biases too.

Hope I have tried to explain my stand - if it does not satisfy you, the fault could be mine.

(Spelling and grammatical errors - please excuse)
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#57 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat » 02 May 2018, 14:28

VGV
I think your angle of CM listening has few prerequisites which have a firm foundation on a combination of religion , rama bhakthi and Bhagavatha puranam etc. I am perhaps stating the below points on more pragmatic considerations

1. sadguru Thyagaraja apart from his heavy mix of outpourings and light mix of compositions created an extra ordinary sishya parampara . He had disciples like manambuchavadi , Walajahpet venkataramana bhagavathar , Umayalpuram bhagavatharas, thillaisthanam, lalgudi rama iyer etc . That was generation 1. Then generation 2 with patnam , mysore sadashiva rao, mysore vasudevacharya and then generation 3 of great delivery practioners starting with Poochi,ariyakudi, chembai, ariyakudi , mvi , each of them spent their 60% lifetime venerating and only repeatedly practising T Krithis.

Note:There is a quick trace that stuck me now i wanted to share. Many years back I , vk and cml talked.(Read Post #52 to 58 with Vk and CML rocking, i wish cml is here right now active in this thread)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9292&p=117578&hilit ... nt#p117578

2. Unfortunately for other vageyakkaras like GKB, PSivan etc many a times that musical intensity does not come . While few of todays musician do get that thamizh musical feel still there is a kind of repeated conditioning that has come maximum only with T krithis and not that intensity is seen with other vageykkara's krithis . Thamizh krithis are sung to capture more thamizh diaspora rasikas , it is more a marketing gimmick spearheaded by tv channels .Personally I love and adore few GKB and Psivan krithis like for example innamum sandeha padalAmO/devi neeye thunai in keeravani and Karthikeya kangeya in todi . Krithis like devi neeeye thunai in keeravani and karthikeya kangeya in todi is more defining than the best of trinity krithis . I would characterize taking your definition that it was more outpouring than composition.

3. Also I am wondering and loud thinking since you know about GKB bit more of his lifestyle where he participated with thamizh thata U ve Su etc there is more of commoner feel that has come to you unlike T where the commoner feel/lifestyle is not talked . At the most we hear the narration of say T getting hit by his elder brother(commoner feel) but the narration ends as a small prelude with the more spiritual and religious trace of T searching for rAmA Idol. The colloquialism and commoner narration of other composers other than T vs narration of always staying with only rama bhakthi for T is making many of us tilt and experience T far more .

4. I was expecting you to answer that the below krithis that i mentioned in my previous post
----------->> 4. Janani ninuvinA - subbaraya sastri - telugu
----------->> 5. paripAlayam mAm - Swati Tirunal - sanskrit
----------->> 6. Tattavamariya tharamA - Papanasam Sivan - tamil
----------->> 7. guruvayoor appane - Ambujam Krishna - tamil

DO the above krithis qualify as compositions and not graduate into the league of T composition bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE which you characterized as outpouring and not composition . If it is ok you can still answer if 4 to 7 qualify whether they are outpourings or do they just stay as compositions.

5. Personally I am very glad that the carnatic ecosystem has standardized on our favourite vaggeyakkara Sadguru Thyagaraja as flagship vageyakkara. After all in future , vidwans and vidushis will only have a career of 25 to 50 singing years. Learning lot of PD, GKB, AC,MD, PSivan,ST in early years and not learning and practicing enough T krithis is a long term musical disaster for your grandchildren and my child. We will have more TV tamasha but not concert experience, a certain symmetry with repeated practice helps for sure.

My apologies if I have miscommunicated . I still remember you when we met for the first time in Nageswaran house you said some thing very profound which you forgot to mention in your earlier post . Thyagaraja is all about anurAgA bhakthi , i asked you what is anurAgA , and you said anurAgA is about deep love. Do we all live long enough to appreciate and spend time with say my top three A plus quality composers like T,MD and Papanasam sivan - not possible at all.
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sureshvv
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#58 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 02 May 2018, 16:41

vgovindan wrote:
02 May 2018, 13:23
For tyAgarAja, his ishTha dEvata - rAma - was his sole audience. He refused any monetary considerations for his music, and consequently lived in penury as an uncchavRtti brahmin.
I have heard that Thyagaraja was the plaintiff in a legal action in the Civil Court pertaining to some land holdings. Prof. Sambamuurthy's book speaks of a house partition done by the Revenue Department but not much more in detail. I have also heard that he was a tax paying citizen. May be someone can shed some light on this,
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kvchellappa
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#59 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 02 May 2018, 16:57

The point made was that the quality and intensity of bhava was more in T's songs by a yawning gap from the songs of others. As I see, that case has not been convincingly set out. Why is it necessary that bhava must relate only to bhakti (even there the case is not set on cast iron)? A song like thunbam nerkaiyil has sufficient bhava to move a listener without comparing it in any way to any other composition. Perhaps the bhava in Syama Sastri's songs is more intense. As I was listening to mayamma today, it was divine.
It does not seem to matter whether one sang for money or not, or how one lived. The art of Ravi Varma is not any the less because he was a king. Or, for that matter the songs of Swathi Thirunal. The points must be on the lyrics and the music.
As pointed out, T had a good lineage and a lot of uzhaippu has gone onto his oeuvre. Songs like Thiruvadi saranam and sabhapathikku veru deivam have already established themselves. If they are not of the same standard as T's, it has not been explained why. It is not possible to go by the reputation of the judge; the case must be made out.
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sureshvv
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#60 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 02 May 2018, 18:15

kvchellappa wrote:
02 May 2018, 16:57
If they are not of the same standard as T's, it has not been explained why. It is not possible to go by the reputation of the judge; the case must be made out.
This is not an objective MCQ type of question. There is only 1 judge & that is you.
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#61 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 02 May 2018, 18:18

.
Sale of a house by Tyagaraja :-
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14663&hilit=tyagaraja+palm+leaf


Though popularly known as Tyagaraja, his name was Tyagabrahma Iyer as indicated in the document signed by him! Photograph of ‘the sale deed inscribed on a plamleaf and SIGNED BY HIM’ is available at:-
http://www.eemaata.com/images/may2009/t ... le_doc.jpg

As per the Sale Deed, Tyagabrama Iyer sold his house in 1828, i.e. when he was 61 years of age. Curiously the document is in Tamil, though Tanjavur at that time was ruled by the Marathas and the mother tongue of Tyagabrama Iyer was Telugu. It is not known whether his signature is in Tamil or Telugu.

Here is the translation, attempted by me, of the Sale Deed and the initial note seen in the photograph:-

“Palm Leaf document with Sri Tyagaraja’s signature was found in the family of the hereditary Village Administrator of Tiruvaiyaru Kalyana Mahal Palace.

“On this 31st day of December 1828, 11th day of Margazhi month Sarvadhari year, the Sale Deed given by both of us - Tyagabrahmaiyer son of Ramabrahmaiyer and Subbhabrahamaiyer son of Panchanathabrahman residing in Tirumanjana Street of Tiruvaiyaru, to Sowbhagyavati Balammabai Ammal, daughter of Sowbhagyavati Lagubai Amma of Tanjavur City, covering the residential house and land property, owned by both of us, located in the Garuda Vastu western portion of Tirumanjana Street of the abovementioned village, sold to you as per this Deed for 32 souverign and 3 ¾ fanam, equal to Silver Rupee 50 5/16 and 3 ¾ fanam, and cash received by us in the presence of the Tiruvaiyaru Rajakumaratthi Sowbhagya (Uba)yaThaimar’s Palace Shroff Ayyalu Naicken which may be considered as compensation in full. Agreed as mentioned above, we, Tyagabrahmaiyer and Subbhabrahmaiyer, have given this Cash Receipt for the Sale to Sowbhagyavati Balammabai Ammal, daughter of Sowbhagyavati Lagubai Ammal.

(Sd.) Tyagabrahmaiyer (Sd.) Subbhabrahmaiyer

Witnesses:-
Venkitarama Sastri of the above Street - Witness
Sambasivaiyer of the above Street - Witness
Tiruvadi Venkitaramaiyer - Witness
Witness - Panchanata Gurukal, Son of Sama Gurukal

In the presence of: Shroff Ayyalu Naicken.”
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MaheshS
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#62 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by MaheshS » 02 May 2018, 18:25

sureshvv wrote:
02 May 2018, 16:41
vgovindan wrote:
02 May 2018, 13:23
For tyAgarAja, his ishTha dEvata - rAma - was his sole audience. He refused any monetary considerations for his music, and consequently lived in penury as an uncchavRtti brahmin.
I have heard that Thyagaraja was the plaintiff in a legal action in the Civil Court pertaining to some land holdings. Prof. Sambamuurthy's book speaks of a house partition done by the Revenue Department but not much more in detail. I have also heard that he was a tax paying citizen. May be someone can shed some light on this,
There is ample proof that he did NOT live in penury as suggested by Govindan sir. He was NOT poor by any standards. He had lands and got benefits from it. He had a wife. He had a child. He had quarrels with his brother regarding property, in Tamil, sothu sandai. All documented with proof. This is all part of hagiography ala Najiva Dhara etc, started in the early 20th century.

This is in NO way diminishing the stature of Saint Thygaraja or his divine compositions.

Back to topic, being a Tamilian, with a very limited understanding of Telegu, I'd rather skip his krithi for a gana in Tamil, where I can understand and appreciate the lyrics *as* well. Musical? Lyrics? Gramatics? Emotion Outpouring? Yeah yeah, but Tamil hits where it hurts. So maybe I am the poorer for that, so be it.

Nanmayum Selvamum Naalum Nallkumay
Thinmayum Paavamum Sidhaindhu Thaeyumae
Jenmamum Maranamum Indri Theerumaey
Inmayey Rama Endra Irandu Ezhuthinaal

Aha ha. Beat that :)
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#63 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 02 May 2018, 20:37

Unchavritti (उञ्छवृत्ति) refers to collecting grains from the fields after harvest.

As collecting grains from the fields was a difficult exercise, 'they' turned to begging - calling it as unchavritti. Stories were spread that it would be a sin to turn away a unchavritti beggar.

And, nowadays unchavritti has become a pompous act.
Real unchavritti is done, even now, in a few remote villages by Irulas !
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#64 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 02 May 2018, 22:06

I am sure the neighborhood people were lining up in droves for the opportunity to donate for the Unchavritti when T's group came around!
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#65 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 02 May 2018, 23:12

(141)
நிதி சால சுகமா !

மனைவி மக்களில்லை; மனதுக்கு பாரமில்லை.
மனையுண்டு படுக்க, மன்னன் அளித்த கொடை.
மதியத்தில் சுற்றிவந்தால் மடிநிறைய சோறுண்டு !
நிதியெதற்கு எனக்கு? நிதி சால சுகமா... ஆ...ஆ... !

ப்ரத்யக்ஷம் பாலா,
22.06.2011.
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arasi
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#66 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by arasi » 03 May 2018, 01:18

போதுமென்ற மனம் எனக்கு, ராமா!
ஏதும் வேண்டிலேன், உன்னருளே
போதும்! நீ தரும் உண்ணும் உடையும்
ஏதும் குறையிலா வாழ்வும் உண்டே!

ஆதலால், நிதி சால சுகமா, என்பேன்...
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#67 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 03 May 2018, 02:28

sureshvv wrote:
02 May 2018, 22:06
I am sure the neighborhood people were lining up in droves for the opportunity to donate for the Unchavritti when T's group came around!
(279)
தினப்படி

குடுகுடுப் பாண்டி வந்தார் - பின்
டுருடுரு உறுமி மேளம் !
அடுத்தது பூம்பூம் மாடு;
தொடர்ந்தது தொம்பங் கூத்து !

இல்லை எனச் சொல்லாது
எல்லார்க்கும் இட்ட பின்னே
மிஞ்சியதைக் கொடுத்தாள்
உஞ்சு வ்ருத்திக் கலைஞருக்கு.

ப்ரத்யக்ஷம் பாலா,
21.11.2013.
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#68 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 03 May 2018, 04:14

There seems to be a concerted effort to denigrate tyAgarAja and to show him in poor light - probably with the intent to make tamil kRtis and tamil singing more popular. tamil is a great language by itself; it does not need any props, particularly by showing in poor light composers of other languages?

I can see the same pattern as adopted by dravidian politicians by showing Hindu religion as a whole in poor light im order to prop up dravidian psyche. The result is there for all to see.

My sincere advice is - please adopt a positive attitude towards tamil kRtis and singing in tamil. Please avoid any negative approach - this will be self-defeating.

For example, the heading itself - say தமிழில் பாடுவோம்.
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#69 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 03 May 2018, 06:39

vgovindan wrote:
03 May 2018, 04:14
... Please avoid any negative approach - this will be self-defeating. For example, the heading itself - say தமிழில் பாடுவோம்.
The heading, 'தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?' is a rightful lament by a rasika. The first post is worth reading again.

'தமிழில் பாடுவோம்' ? --
It is for the musicians to realize, and say this.


As for the 'negative approach', one can find plenty of 'self-defeating' statements !
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#70 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 03 May 2018, 07:45

vgovindan wrote:
03 May 2018, 04:14
There seems to be a concerted effort to denigrate tyAgarAja and to show him in poor light - probably with the intent to make tamil kRtis and tamil singing more popular. tamil is a great language by itself; it does not need any props, particularly by showing in poor light composers of other languages?
I don't think Thyagaraja was denigrated by anyone here. Just setting some facts right, so people have a clearer picture of the great composer. His work speaks for itself and he does not need any additional props either.
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#71 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by rajeshnat » 03 May 2018, 08:57

Govindan sir,
you said "IMHO, a rAga is a vehicle or a medium only. While the contour of rAga is well defined, the mano-dharma of the composer (or artist) takes a totally different appeal of the same rAga based on the emphasis and emotional depth."

On those lines , I have also put four links of different artists

4. I was expecting you to answer that the below krithis that i mentioned in my previous post
----------->> 4. Janani ninuvinA - subbaraya sastri - telugu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNl6F1y9FbI by msamma
----------->> 5. paripAlayam mAm - Swati Tirunal - sanskrit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5UbKdyvNn4 by gnb
----------->> 6. Tattavamariya tharamA - Papanasam Sivan - tamil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLT5X8v1Qe0 by skr
----------->> 7. guruvayoor appane - Ambujam Krishna - tamil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyf0hPH3CqQ by santhanam

DO the above krithis qualify as just compositions or have they graduated into the league of T composition bAlE bAlEndu bhUshaNE which you characterized as outpouring and not composition .
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kvchellappa
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#72 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by kvchellappa » 03 May 2018, 09:02

Absolutely, there is no intention to denigrate Thyagaraja. Thyagaraja was a great renaissance composer and the state of CM today owes immensely to him. All that is being argued is let us not fix CM at a point in time or confined to one or two composers or to any one language. We will respect greatness in people that is authentic. We do not have to mystify, deify or be intolerant of any criticism. It is untenable that no one would ever bring the same magic to CM like Thyagaraja. If it has not happened, it can still happen. Even those (musicians) who are vocal about Tamizh Isai never denigrated Thyagaraja or failed to sing his songs. If anyone does not learn and sing Thaygaraja, the loss is monumentally his. It is TN that hosted Thyagaraja and it is a large number of Tamizh musicians that popularised his compositions.
There is nothing amiss about the title. The comment came in the article because not a single Tamizh song was sung. The intention is certainly not that only Tamizh songs must be sung.
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#73 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 03 May 2018, 09:19

To understand and appreciate the present situation, language-wise classification of the songs rendered in recent CM programmes that are covered in ‘Concert Reviews’ would be of help.
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sureshvv
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#74 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by sureshvv » 03 May 2018, 11:03

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:
03 May 2018, 09:19
To understand and appreciate the present situation, language-wise classification of the songs rendered in recent CM programmes that are covered in ‘Concert Reviews’ would be of help.
Not sure about that. May become like our reservation system :D
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vgovindan
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#75 Re: தமிழில் பாடக்கூடாதா?

Post by vgovindan » 03 May 2018, 14:57

Rajesh,
"........Do we all live long enough to appreciate and spend time with say my top three A plus quality composers like T,MD and Papanasam sivan - not possible at all."

Whether we like or not, whether we are conscious of it or not, whether we have time for it or not, we, humans are rushing towards that great anonymity willy nilly. If we do it consciously, the journey itself becomes the goal. The meaning of our struggle becomes clear.

https://youtu.be/Fl1L1uCDojg
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