Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

To teach and learn Indian classical music
SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Ouch! Sorry. I was busy downloading a few other videos and must have mixed up the links copy pasting : Here you go. Palinchu Kamakshi by GNB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62_I03xX0lY

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I hope to try this limited and well bounded exercise. I like Madyamavathi which helps and hope I can at least get the sense for the hop, skip and a jump that this raga entails: SRM, MRS, PNS, SNP combinations.

Not sure when but I will give it a try. Thanks.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK , RN, and Sri

Tangentially , I want you to watch this first 55 seconds of the video. A couple of years ago while I was in Hanoi, my colleague ( native of Hanoi) was speaking to her friend over phone. Initially it made me to crack , but I realized that it was full of quick shift in tones and it was baffling to me. May be these people get these shift in tones naturally .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dps2_fUosJo

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

:) chennai used to have a lot of Vietnamese expats and they spoke Tamil well..

Sounded like the twangs of the Jewish Harp (morsing )!! :) and if they were to say funny things it would be like built-in Tamil movie comedy :) .

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Hey I got the first phrase: R2 R2 R2.. R2 M1 P M1 R2... S...

(for this exercise, will it be ok if I use my flute to verify if it is correct? Even if so, I will have to be careful not to use the flute to determine the swaras but just to verify it)

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK , it is fine to use flute. But just wondering if you could play flute in mind and convert it into notes in real time , as you do with a real flute. This is important after somelevel and it actually can be achieved. You can sing a powerful niraval actually in silence and listen to it (in silence). All that you have to do is to shut the outside world and orient yourself to that flute. I can do that with violin , and all that happens is my fingers slightly twitch . I still remember one of my violin teachers used to sometimes play with his fingers ( without the violin ) to write down the notations for me.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

g_m, interesting. No, I am not anywhere close to that.

But I do wonder how it happens when I get something right on my flute with out any conscious effort to convert it to notes. The flip side of the coin is the frustration when I do not get a melody right no matter what I try. That is the case with the vast majority of times. That is where I need the skills we talk about in this thread.

I practice a form of the exercise you prescribe which is to sing out the various swaras ( though not with the rigor you specify but something is better than nothing and hoping those things will somehow contribute to the swara gyana). This is mostly while I am driving. In that exercise, I do try to get the tone in my mind first and then vocalize it. Nice if and when I get it right!!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

While we are at this, let me write about something I can do which is quite interesting in itself. By now you all have a decent idea where my swara skills are. It is quite limited. The limitations are the opposite wrt to flute and voice. On the flute, I can play a given set of swaras but I can not play an arbitrary melody. On the voice, I can repeat an arbitrary melody with some accuracy but I can not sing a set of swaras beyond a few notes in sequence. I think this in itself is not very unusual.

But something interesting happens....

when I am in the car and listening to a raga ( alapana or niraval ), I sometimes can get into a zone where I can sing that raga quite fluently. It pretty much does not matter what that raga is. And I am not repeating exactly what the singer is singing. The singing is not via the swaras obviously (given my limitations there ). It is not same as repeating an arbitrary melody exactly but I think the brain is using a similar function. Remember I am an order of magnitude less skilled in vocal than on the flute which isn't saying much but when I am in that zone something breaks out of those severe limitations imposed by the conscious mind. The raga sort of exists by itself and my voice traverses the swaras ( whether it is a jump or in sequence ) without my conscious effort to express that raga. But I am conscious enough to hear it myself and so it is a lot of fun.

The phenomenon is hard to reproduce and in fact if I try it consciously with an effort to recreate it, it usually would not happen. Also the quality of singing is not that great so this is not something I would volunteer to do in public. Just to make sure I am not hallucinating, a couple of times it happened when someone else was in the car and they acknowledged it was that raga. They were mildly bewildered when I told them I really do not know the raga that well and I can not sing the same thing by myself on demand without that musical backdrop.

So the curious thing is not that it happens, a skilled vocalist can do it in their sleep, but it happens to someone like me who is so limited in raga singing skills otherwise.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Ok, so will someone translate that brigha sangathi that GNB sings in the Pallavi line? Special appreciation for anyone who tries. :twisted:
You don't have to be perfect. Remember, the master has failed more times than the student has ever tried. :mrgreen:

@vk, You got it. It's R, R, R,, (S) --- R, MP, MR, (R)S - A swara in brackets is where a slide starts from or ends at or briefly touches as an anuswaram. At last, a start.

Ok. One more clarification. You don't have to translate the whole thing. One phrase at a time is enough. We'll compile it all later. Here's to help out.

2nd phrase : S, , , -- S, (M) RS,,,n (n)p , , (Commas are arbitrary. Just meant to give a hint of how long each note was touched. Note that there is a small slide on the first S.

3rd phrase : nSR,S, R, RMPN PPM- (R)S, R,(P)- MN-PM R,,(S) -- Observe the janta and dhatu usage inside this brigha. For clarity, you can slow the video to 0.5x.

4th phrase : R,M, PMM R, M, P,, P,,, -- Ah the limitations of the browser editors! :evil:

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

I'm not into brighas but gnb is amazing, and it's so appealing! But hard hard to follow. I can't do it all, but I think Paapa Shamani in the final sangati goes like this..

Paa - PNSRM--
pa - RMR-SRS
Sha - nsn
ma- pnp
ni - mpmrmrsr

I don't know if there are more. I think if there were more swaras in this, they would have to be jantas like nsnn pnpp, but I don't think that's the case..

Will try to work with the earlier part of the line, but it's hard..

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Ah, yes! My special congratulations madam as promised -- this only comes by repeatedly hearing, trying and trying till Image. I would have wanted to wait for someone else to try, but sometimes I feel compelled by the music... ok, I will give another one after this alapana is done :

Just to point out one correction : |NSRM || , , R,MR |S,RS N,SN || P,NP M,PM | R,PM RS || (Paalimchu) -- R,MR RS would follow the pattern after M,PM, but this would be aesthetically weaker, hence the pattern is broken at this point by introducing a dhattu R,PM instead.

This particular pattern brigha being sung at 2x normal speed in chatushra nadai, all the patterns must add up to 4 counts to fit in the tala or else it will become tisra nadai. Hence RMR - SRS - NSN will be sung as R,MR S,RS N,SN which if you listen at half speed, is what the mridangist plays. Another variation is also RMR, SRS, NSN, PNP, MPM, which has a stronger "attack effect" at the start of the brigha.

These brighas, to really appreciate their construction, it is necessary to slow down the recording and decode their internal rhythms and melodies.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: Just to point out one correction : |NSRM || , , R,MR |S,RS N,SN || P,NP M,PM | R,PM RS || (Paalimchu) -- R,MR RS would follow the pattern after M,PM, but this would be aesthetically weaker, hence the pattern is broken at this point by introducing a dhattu R,PM instead.
As I listend, Paa of "paapa" begins with the swara pa - it is PNSRM. I did not try to fit with taala, chose not to do that, just didn't take the time, and tried to listen to the swaras.
This particular pattern brigha being sung at 2x normal speed in chatushra nadai, all the patterns must add up to 4 counts to fit in the tala or else it will become tisra nadai. Hence RMR - SRS - NSN will be sung as R,MR S,RS N,SN which if you listen at half speed, is what the mridangist plays. Another variation is also RMR, SRS, NSN, PNP, MPM, which has a stronger "attack effect" at the start of the brigha.
These brighas, to really appreciate their construction, it is necessary to slow down the recording and decode their internal rhythms and melodies.
What do you mean when you say you slow it down? Do you hear all the swaras on your own, or do you slow it down to get these details? How do you do that?

But slowing down the music with technology is not particularly interesting to me, I would rather hear it at the speed it is sung. I am happy to be doing this exercise and thrilled to be making out swaras I could not readily hear, but if I can't hear each and every swara on my own without technology, I'm fine with it.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

There is an option to play the video at 0.5x speed in the Youtube player settings button.

It is aesthetically not pleasing as it sloooooooowssss down every movement. Nevertheless it reveals interesting things. Among others I have found that the best singers do not lose swarasthana even at high speeds and all their modulations are actually well controlled. I also found out the amount of gamaka GNB could put into a brigha (his is a special case of a heavy voice which is still super manuevarable) -- it was this that gave the brighas that weight and power.

Varnams that are sung properly in higher speeds sound very close to their slower speed renditions, but the gamakas are "clipped" at the point of jumping the notes - there is a small staccatto like effect which is what imparts a percussive feel to the brighas.

Regarding the PNSRM phrase, I thought it had the P at normal speed, but at 0.5x speed I thought it started with a gamaka on the N and there is a small janTa on the upper M. This is straddling the point where it becomes difficult to come to one conclusion. Nevertheless that swara awareness is necessary if that brigha has to be played or sung with that precision. It is clever to start a brigha with a swaraaksharam, isn't it?

We can return to the alapana now. Will anyone attempt the 5th phrase from 0:26 in the video? (At this point, you're all flying the plane now :lol: . I'll just watch and see who tries and who discusses.) :ugeek:

Note : Good skills like these are required if some enthusiasts may wish to contribute making notations of recordings ....

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Srinath,

What is that notation software you are using and its limitations you have mentioned?! To me notes have not been a problem, or rather it should not be, as that is how I spent a lot of time whenever I had to spend some time alone following phrase by phrase along side some thengamudis participation those days. Not anymore. So , notes were not a problem for me, but getting it on fingers in realtime was the problem, especially when you hear a lot of " No mans land", then the you may have to tone down , or otherwise you are just highlighting that no mans land, and you may have to face the music. That is one area I also dipped my feet , but out of it completely. :mrgreen:
. But jotting down in a legible format is something I would be happy with, as oftentimes I get asked for notations for some songs. It is 100 times harder for me to notate. The simplest would be for VK to try to follow the slow phrases in flute, as he already plays it. Though it may seem impossible in the beginning , it gets second nature overtime, and notes gets in subconsciously. But we are talking tricks here , so we will go with it.

On one thing particularly , I beg to differ with Srinath. Actually , at great speeds the best artistes ( best in terms of voice is what you mean , right?) can simulate perfection of notes, but is not possible to be perfect note. That applies also to the instruments. Very very very very ... or just a couple of artistes I could hear the notes nicely rolling out ( still there are some simulations). 1.BMK 2.MS..

If one is hearing notes to perfection, it is the simulation that one has got used to and we can call it "carnatic ear", with so many sangathis and phrases already stored in our brain that tries to match when the singer sings. This is great too.

With the best simulation who can greatly trick your mind and can bring out those scintillating phrases - that is LGJ and his " tour de force".

I am gearing for a long trip , so pls carry on , I will keep up with your interesting conversation. I will try to notate also to learn notation process.

VK, I have the next graduated level of exercise for you. Hope you are keeping up too. :).

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote:There is an option to play the video at 0.5x speed in the Youtube player settings button.
Thanks for that.. I tried it just to see what you are talking about with the NSRM. GNB is truly brilliant.
Regarding the PNSRM phrase, I thought it had the P at normal speed, but at 0.5x speed I thought it started with a gamaka on the N and there is a small janTa on the upper M. This is straddling the point where it becomes difficult to come to one conclusion. Nevertheless that swara awareness is necessary if that brigha has to be played or sung with that precision. It is clever to start a brigha with a swaraaksharam, isn't it?
I agree and disagree with you. He does begin with a NI, but my impression is that it is a gamakam on Pa. It is a slide to pa from NI. And there is no janta on Ma. THE last 2 notes including the final Ma in that phrase are clearly two different successive notes with two different pitches. May be you are subconsciously trying to make the note count correct because you want 5 notes and not four that you've got with NSRM.

I disagree with you on this exercise for VK. As I expressed my view when I first expressed my ideas on this topic, he needs to find a brigha-free recording. Now if you need to slow down this recording and remove all the beauty and brilliance of the singer to do this exercise, then what's the point ? He might as well use a prettier and naturally slower snippet of music.

Srinathk, what is the point of notating all this? This is improvisation, why would you want to capture it? Even if the scholars of posterity want to do a thesis on the brilliance of GNB, then if the recordings are preserved, they need to listen to the recordings and interpret and appreciate it on their own. It will have to be their original work. It makes sense to notate songs, but not alapanas, unless you are doing it for your individual pleasure.

But it's certainly a fun challenge for an occasion to chat about it here and I liked doing this snippet. But I'm afraid the discussion will draw me into slowing down the music as I just did, to see what you meant, and I don't want to engage in that. It kills it for me.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 27 Jul 2015, 09:01, edited 2 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

About the usefulness or futility of this exercise, and on what VK should do, I do disagree with you, but I don't mean do much more than just share an opinion and a reasoning. I know you and VK may disagree and that's fine. :)

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Srinathk, what is the point of notating all this? This is improvisation, why would you want to capture it? Even if the scholars of posterity want to do a thesis on the brilliance of GNB, then if the recordings are preserved, they need to listen to the recordings and interpret and appreciate it on their own. It will have to be their original work. It makes sense to notate songs, but not alapanas, unless you are doing it for your individual pleasure.
This exercise is the key to developing raga gnyana -- manodharma isn't as improvised as one thinks it is, much of it is like giving a speech, some of it is rehearsed, much more of it is researched. Spontaneity comes over time. Raga phrases can be notated -- it is knowing a large vocabulary of various kinds of raga phrases that will allow one to develop their own raga essays and improvise beyond. This will come back to help in notating compositions later. I have not asked for a perfect reproduction, because everyone interprets a phrase slightly differently and this is where one artist begins to differentiate oneself from another.
I disagree with you on this exercise for VK. As I expressed my view when I first expressed my ideas on this topic, he needs to find a brigha-free recording. If you need to slow down this recording and remove all the beauty and brilliance of the singer to do this exercise, then what's the point ? He might as well use a prettier and slower snippet of music.
Then try this :lol: - LGJ : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO2RU0E9Nac -- I have said it before. LGJ is one of the easier artistes because he can bring out the whole raga with even simple phrases. You have a visual reference too in the form of the finger technique to tell you the swaras -- I do not think you need to slow down this recording at any time to decipher the shorter phrases. So it should be easier. Out of all artistes, violinists are exposed to this kind of phrase reproduction exercise more than any other musician.

Notating krithis is one thing, trying to decipher manodharma is another. If you want to get good at it, you have to practice on ragas. :geek: The simpler and shorter phrases are the best places to start learning this -- you do not have the burden of fitting them to tala as in the case of krithis.

But let me mention a point - learning should be fun and enjoyable yes. But there are also times where it IS taxing and it will push you beyond your current limits - and one should be prepared for that too. My 2 cents.

Now if you find GNB too hard, try the LGJ recording instead. No brighas. @vk, what do you say to this?

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

This exercise is the key to developing raga gnyana -- manodharma isn't as improvised as one thinks it is, much of it is like giving a speech, some of it is rehearsed, much more of it is researched.

Srinath , what you have said is true. But , I had to tone down as many disagree with me on this, and frustrating when they opinion just on kelvigyaan.

Ranganayaki,

Notating alapana should be one of the best learning skills for a student , which we have never incorporated into our system. It can change the whole dynamics of learning. And you wont be having to doing it always. Serious Music learner would not do it forever, as he may get used to doing it precisely on the spot. But , to get away with ambiguity initially and to get a grasp it is always good to notate. It is great to try however taxing is. it can speed up the learning curve , though might have a tedious effect initially .

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

My point was this: if you are slowing down the brighas ( till they are no longer brighas) and you are also removing beauty from it, what's the point of it? You might as well listen to slower music (first) to acquire Swaragnana. You are implicitly saying it is too difficult !

When you learn, the limit being pushed should only be a little beyond your current ability. When it is far beyond the learner's ability, enjoyment and motivation is lost. As you learn, you push the limit further and further. The ultimate goal can be as far out as you want.

When a person like VK or I would like to decipher notes of a song, there is no burden to fit the notes into a tala. It is simply about listening and hearing the note names in your head. That is the exercise as I understand it. No matter what is sung, if you train methodically to hear notes, that's what you hear, whether you are aware of tala or not.

But I think there are at least 3 different views on what the aim of this thread is. I joined this discussion thinking he original question was one thing but this direction is different.

When you read a book, you hear the actual words in your head. If you see the letter B, it actually sounds like B in your head. That is what I thought VK wanted to achieve.. Raga gnana for manodharma was not the goal as I understood it. It seems the direction and the destination are shifting a lot. We were discussing swaragnana. For that the approach would be more fundamental and more limited, against the broader and more abstract notions of raga.

GM, your post is up there before mine, so I'm adding a response: Yes if a student is doing this out of individual interest, I agree.. I must have misunderstood the scope of what Srinath was proposing. But for this thread, I'm confused as to what the goal is.. For now I have little else to say.

Anyway, thanks for your responses.. :)

Srinath, I'm not sure what your laughter icon before LGJ's name meant!
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 27 Jul 2015, 20:29, edited 1 time in total.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki ,


I fully agree with you that the thread has drifted a bit. But, let us keep it this way , it serves both advanced ad beginners.

Srinath inputs are of higher level . I guess VK should be enjoying both and will pick the thread soon.

Slowing down to decipher does not make any sense. It can be used to challenge when two greatly disagrees on a particular phrase , that is all. But Srikanth is also onto building manodharma technically, and I welcome that too, so you get a glance of how it is going to be instead of .... we will cross the bridge when we get there. Those days the salari students would still try to enjoy the alapana stage when their seniors sing... at least we have someone to get doubts cleared in this cyberworld, so we shall embrace this system too.

To me the ambiguous notes are too more glaring and I hate to listen like that. While at speed it is anuswaram and embellishments or whatever.. when you slow down it is rather too glaring.

Srinath , let us wait for VK for his thoughts. :)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Oops, autocorrect had turned gnana into Gnanaskandan.. Sorry!

rshankar
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by rshankar »

Ranganayaki wrote:Oops, autocorrect had turned gnana into Gnanaskandan.. Sorry!
Ranganayaki - a good spin on that would be 'guru bhakti'! ;)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ravi, :)..
ganesh_mourthy wrote:

Slowing down to decipher does not make any sense. It can be used to challenge when two greatly disagrees on a particular phrase , that is all. But Srikanth is also onto building manodharma technically, and I welcome that too, so you get a glance of how it is going to be instead of .... we will cross the bridge when we get there. Those days the salari students would still try to enjoy the alapana stage when their seniors sing... at least we have someone to get doubts cleared in this cyberworld, so we shall embrace this system too.

To me the ambiguous notes are too more glaring and I hate to listen like that. While at speed it is anuswaram and embellishments or whatever.. when you slow down it is rather too glaring.

Srinath , let us wait for VK for his thoughts. :)

GM, it is precisely "getting a glance of how it is going to be" vs "let's cross the bridge.." where I disagree with Srinath given VK's aims. I'm not saying anything new, just clarifying. I even bother to disagree because it is only VK who is taking these suggestions and no one else. Before we make this available for a wide range of readers, I would tend to focus on the person who asked the questions in this thread and stay at what he really needs at his level. As for me, I listen for swaras all the time in all my listening. At high speeds, I get the big picture and hope that with time I will sensitize myself more and more. I wouldn't want to sit down and rewind again and again to hear each and every one of the minute swaras in a brigha, and definitely not slow down a brigha. That's for me, given my aims.

I think singers perform mostly intuitively, not NECESSARILY always aware of the swaras they use. I think even in Swara singing, the names for the swaras come automatically to their lips based on the direction they are travelling in and just the sense of the pitch they are at. That intuition is what you need to develop, just like the process of reading a book. Just like fast typing too. Also what I said about learning, motivation and difficulty level.

Slowing down, I found that gnb's Swarashuddam is amazing. But in the PNSRM phrase for example, all the 5 swaras are not of equal length, though they should be.. The sa is longer and the ri shorter. Still the bigger picture is the command over the rhythm. I don't think we should magnify. Brighas are a question of style. Not everybody needs to achieve them to sing a good alapana. It is not a beginner lesson.

In general I agree with listening to alapanas to achieve what I described.

This is all just my opinion, and it is focused on VK, who is taking all the suggestions here and trying them out. He did not ask about manodharma. I would prefer him to walk with some ease, not plod and think the mystery is deeper than it is. I am aware that even VK may disagree, but that is no crime! It is a point of view that he can take or leave and I won't mind if he leaves it.

Just wanted to explain myself.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki , feel free to voice your thoughts. This is a small polite group and we will NOT feel offended. Yes, indeed what VK is upto and the aim of the thread is different. In fact , to some extent, the manodharma appreciation would put you on a different level of intuition. We are just also looking at notes and the reason why I had given some cine songs for VK to try so he will not use grammar for help but only intuition and if you have heard it , it was a nice Kaapi without the strict framework .

I feel that for swara knowledge one should listen to a lot of non classical music, so that one would not be bothered too much with the grammar and the relevant phrases or patterns.

GM

cacm
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by cacm »

quote="Ranganayaki"]Ravi, :)..

quote="ganesh_mourthy"



I think singers perform mostly intuitively, not NECESSARILY always aware of the swaras they use. I think even in Swara singing, the names for the swaras come automatically to their lips based on the direction they are travelling in and just the sense of the pitch they are at. That intuition is what you need to develop, just like the process of reading a book. Just like fast typing too. Also what I said about learning, motivation and difficulty level.

Slowing down, I found that gnb's Swarashuddam is amazing. But in the PNSRM phrase for example, all the 5 swaras are not of equal length, though they should be.. The sa is longer and the ri shorter. Still the bigger picture is the command over the rhythm. I don't think we should magnify. Brighas are a question of style. Not everybody needs to achieve them to sing a good alapana. It is not a beginner lesson.

PLEASE allow me ME TO PERMIT to make a few remarks based on my interactions in this narrow area as I happen to have discussed this PRECISE subject area with MMI, GNB &LGJ : Madurai Mani Iyer practised (AND TAUGHT ALSO)in addition to SRUTI SUDDHANAM & SWARSTHANA SUDDHAM as a prelude & during raga alapana for each ragam. Part of the procedure was to stop the Thambura & try to sing the particular swawramfor the raga at arbitrary locations. Then only raga elaboration would proceed. GNB said he was fortunately able to instantly realise what the swaram was & that helped him to reach the notes almost instantly. I was actually so intrigued with LGJ'S ability to not just instantly follow the style as well as technical points of EVERY major vocalist I did some experiments also! (This may not be in the main stream of the discussions here). My conclusions were: 1) LGJ was quite unique in his grasp of what a musician was likely to do next.This is very difficult in the case of musicians like Flue Mali as he usually would have done lots of experimentation to play what he plays in real time in a concert tho' it would appear to be spontaneous! 2) As long as one was able to do things within one hundredth of a second the listener typically due to complex mind-ear transducer system considers it instantaneous.
I thought this migfht interest at least some tho'this is not addressing the main things being discussed here. :!: VKV

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Thanks VKV , very nice of you for your anecdotes.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

@cacm, LGJ in my book is unique in this ability of grasping and memory power. Again only a violinist gets that exposure to decoding and reproducing phrases of a huge variety of styles. In one article in a tamil magazine, I've read as to how he would take the train to Trichy to go listen to the concerts at the AIR and come back and reproduce entire concerts even. It is to my annoyance though to hear some people claim his manodharma is too researched (they don't know the full truth about how manodharma works). Earlier I also believed that all manodharma was totally spontaneous until I learnt that it was closer to mastering a language than tossing something out from the void.

Now ok, some trial and error later I think I understand what are the expectations here. So, #1) No brighas or overly gamaka heavy passages. #2) You would want phrases not bound to a tala -- so that rules out more complex songs and instrumental kalpanaswaras for now. I'll even rule out madhyamakala passages.

Now one clarification, I may have taken this into ragas and manodharma, but there is a reason for this. The key to mastering swaragynana lies in raga phrases and the ability to decode and reproduce them -- simple raga phrases. You either a)notate phrases or b)reproduce them on the voice or the instrument, first the phrase and then the swaras of that phrase.

I have taken penatonic rakti ragas as they have simple scales, yet they are very expansive and offer huge possibilities for phrases, interconnected notes and gamakas. IMHO these are the best ragas to start learning swaragynana.

My violin teacher notated my krithis at first, then when I started learning Vasudevayani, he told me : "You're going to do this." Being a violinist means you are naturally exposed to this swara-sahitya and swara-phrase connection on every phrase, otherwise you can't play. So it started from there, although I had to at first repeatedly ask for clarifications -- but I realized even in that first class that I could do it. For a while I quit learning as I couldn't juggle JEE and music together. Then there was a day where I observed my sister (cousin) playing a few light numbers on her veena, including our national anthem. Then it struck me that "Hey. I can do this easily now that I can follow those swaras" -- I came back home and played those numbers on the violin with just a little practice. Till then I had never tried to follow a tape and was only playing what I had been taught.

That day was a revelation as I realized I could indeed stand on my legs and notate songs and play them myself just by hearing. No looking back since then. It was my violin training that taught me the connection. All that raga alapana practice was worth it.

The exercise in "notating ragas" is meant to strengthen swara gnyana - otherwise you can post your attempts like @vk does. But it has the side effect of automatically reinforcing raga gnyana too as it will give you indepth info into the raga as well. I ask you to do the exercise because on a forum, how else can we check our efforts? Or the fact that we have even tried at all.... :lol: (I'll trust your word). This will also help some soul in the future in ways we don't anticipate. (I was a regular visitor to rasikas for years and got a lot of ideas when I was at college).

If even LGJ's madhyamavati is too much, then I fear that I will have to ask you all to notate the national anthem :twisted: But for the record, do transcribe that 1st phrase he plays (you have the video of his finger movements to help you) and compare it to GNB's. You'll find they are almost the same.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Just a few quick notes... elaboration if any later

- As with threads in our forum, they evolve. So what we are encountering here is par for the course. If needed, we can split it into three threads: beginner, intermediate and advanced
- While I do not want this thread to be just about me, I see no one else has gotten on the bandwagon. So be it. These threads are here for anyone to latch onto later on as well.
- Speaking for myself, I am intentionally keeping my goals quite minimal.
- Gain the ability to play some of my favorite film songs on my flute with as accurate as possible. The test here is easy to state. Anyone who is listening to this should feel at lease listening to it and that I am playing that song quite accurately. That seems to be quite important to a lot of film music listeners ( personally for me, I want to be in control, play it first as true as possible to the original and then change it to my taste )
- So, the swaragyana itself is a means to the above end. I have talked to professional violinists about what they do when they shadow vocalists. The consensus is there is just no time for Melody they hear in vocal -> Swaras -> reproduce on the violin. It just happens to them. So the vehicle of swaras recedes to the background. Not that I will get to that stage but stating that swaragyana itself is an intermediate stage. May be I will get stuck there, but it is not too bad a place to be stuck in
- More importantly, I want to get some reliability, confidence and consistency in my ability to play the melody I listen to. Today there is way too much unreliability, uncertainty and inconsistency. I realized the extent of my shortcomings att his when I tried to play the "Om Namo Namah - song from the Movie "Main Krishna Hoon" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFG6CsjIk0M ) which we discussed in a different thread. While I eventually got most of the phrases more or less right, there were some seemingly simple ones which I struggled enormously.
- While listening to music, I do not necessarily want to listen to the swaras. Where I am at now as a listener and rasika, I am good without hearing the swaras. In fact I worry that if I start focussing on the swaras I will lose what I have now which is a relationship to ragas directly at the aesthetic level. (Ranganayaki, we will pick up this topic later whether hearing the swaras is detrimental to enjoying the ragas in its totality or not. You have stated that you hear the swaras but I also see no indication from your writing that it endangers your listening and enjoying to the ragas as a whole, so my fears may be misplaced ).

Having said that, I am willing to give a try to anything. That is on the assumption that being submerged in such activities will help in achieving the objective. While slowing down the briga and trying to convert it to swaras may be a bit much to achieve the beginner's goal, it may just make me listen intently. My own self diagnosis of my issues with poor swara knowledge is that I do not listen attentively enough.

On a related matter, a few years back we worked on a fun thread where someone will post a small snippet ( of their own making or a recording ) and others will have to post the swaras for it. I will find the link and post here for reference. Some of you may remember that.
Someone posted a TNK Mohana alapan and asked us to write down the notes. Well, I tried. It was definitely an advanced level exercise and I did not succeed. But it made me listen to certain segments quite attentively and repetitively. I gave up on it but I used that piece as an inspiration to play a mohanam alapana on my flute. I modeled it approximately along those lines, but it is not a replica ( how could I? ). But amazingly, people thought it was pretty good and it sounded like a mohana alapana they have not heard before ;) I declared victory at that point. Let me see if I can find that. There are such extra benefits that accrue with any activity like this.

(even in this thread, I posted a clip of my attempt at 'dil pukare'. While I did not quite follow any methodology and I did not even convert the melody to the swaras, I attribute any small measure of success there to this thread. Being immersed in swara thoughts themselves can produce something interesting subconsciously. At least that is my take on what happened )

cacm
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by cacm »

quote="SrinathK"]@cacm, LGJ in my book is unique in this ability of grasping and memory power.
HE WAS PROBABLY THE BEST ; THE OTHERS WERE SOMEWHAT CONSTRAINED TO THEIR "BHANI", "SCHOOL" etc I THINK. LGJ himself changed NADA LOLUDAI ETC AFTER CONSIDERABLE RESEARCH!

The exercise in "notating ragas" is meant to strengthen swara gnyana - otherwise you can post your attempts like @vk does. But it has the side effect of automatically reinforcing raga gnyana too as it will give you indepth info into the raga as well. I ask you to do the exercise because on a forum, how else can we check our efforts? Or the fact that we have even tried at all.... :lol: (I'll trust your word). This will also help some soul in the future in ways we don't anticipate. (I was a regular visitor to rasikas for years and got a lot of ideas when I was at college)......
I can only state that MMI'S APPROACH- at least according to DR.S.A.K.Durga-MMI'S DISCIPLE AS WELL AS EXPERT MUSICOLOGIST- OPINED that his approach of conceptualzing CERTAIN RAGAS LIKE JAYANTHASENA(Vinatha Suthavahana) was ENORMOUSLY ENHANCED BY THE swarsthanam & swara approach to raga elaboration. Actually she claimed it would be impossible to elaborate without repetition these kinds of ragas. Of course the other school is to expound using tradition, historical development etc which is needed because these ragas have existed for ever, metamorphsised due to folk & other influences.

If even LGJ's madhyamavati is too much, then I fear that I will have to ask you all to notate the national anthem :twisted: But for the record, do transcribe that 1st phrase he plays (you have the video of his finger movements to help you) and compare it to GNB's. You'll find they are almost the same.....I am sure you are well aware that musicians like MDR, Mali & RAMANI DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR OWN COMPOSITIONS EXACTLY! My class mate &
student of MDR&N.R. (for over 20 years) is HUGE EXPERT IN THIS AREA in addition to being a theoretical physicist & Swamiji (PROF. V.Radhakrishnan-Swami Bhuvananada) has actually NOTATED THEIR RENDERINGS VS actually written down notations vs renderings & MDR, N.R. ADMITTED THEY ACTUALLY DO NOT FOLLOW & render variations....T.K.Govindarao's books actually contain notations just taken from CONCERTS by various artists. IN SHORT NOTATING, NOTATIONS & HOW THEY ARE FOLLOWED IN REAL LIFE ARE AN INTERESTING SUBJECT UNTO THEMSELVES.....vkv

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

This thread is not centred around you , but there are several thousands of VKs and I used to be one.

You have mentioned that you are unable to reproduce some phrases. Are you sure you are struggling with the notes ?! Sometimes, you cannot reproduce the same nuances in an instrument fromn that of a vocal and it may sound different,and make you think you are doing it wrong. This happens initially. Even in violin we alter some phrases a bit to suit the instrument. You cannot exactly reproduce a vocal . They are different.

Finding swara or swara identification thread is just above our thread under Music School. Is that what you are talking about?

GM

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

GM, yeah, I do not want this thread to be centered around me, I wish more people who would like to learn participated here. You three are already at quite an advanced stage and are teachers and not students.

I think my issues are really about swaras ( though the issue you are refering to is also there ). Like for something like S, S S S S, R S S N, P N, S S, it is easy to hear when what I play is not same as vocal but it is annoying when I do not readily know what is wrong. I think something like that is in one of the charanams of that Oh Namo song. Also that easy sounding line 'Ohm namo Namah Krishna Gopala is not quite right though the tougher sounding starting line 'kanhare bansuriya bajaayE anandu aye' I got it quite close. Anyway, those are the usual issues with learning anything.

Yes, the Swara Identification threads I was referring to are the sticky ones at the top of the Music School forum.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

I can completely understand what you say. But, remember , we discussed this already , but glossed over it .
There is no way ( absolutely no way) you can reproduce the music of vocal in an instrument. Even an ameteur can sometimes reproduce the filmy songs , or even carnatic, with the right melody, right modulation , intensity in sound, timbre changes within and that is what that makes the music special . Sometimes the amatuer will do it wrong notes a bit, but still can do a make believe with the above qualities. This is entirely different in instrument.

I used to take out the violin everytime I wanted to decipher swaras and it was not working. When I tried to imitate in voice it was 20 times faster. The problem is , as already said, your instrument will not come to help unless you are at an advanced level. So just hum along and let me know how close you get in deciphering with that same Ohm namo nama.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

@cacm, Our music is really not from the "uber-text" and I do not want it to be. No two renditions are ever the same, even by the composers themselves.
vasanthakokilam
In fact I worry that if I start focussing on the swaras I will lose what I have now which is a relationship to ragas directly at the aesthetic level.
You're worrying too much sir. Fear not.

So in the meantime, will you all try the LGJ Madhyamavati? (Pity I'm not in Chennai with free access to my violin and my own practice room, so I can only notate here : ) Or will we go the way of "Om Namo" ?

Phrase 1 : R , , , , S - R, PM R, S, -- S, , (M) RS, n, (n)n, , - p, r S M M R , , (that M M R is played like SMRM R ,)

Now I could do this myself (I have borrowed many phrases from this alaapana already and it has inspired me to plumb this raga), but the beneficiaries should be you. I was hoping that these swaragynana exercises will also refine one's feel for gamaka movements and raga gnyana as an automatic side effect of the exercise, but my own concern now is that unless one exercise is done to completion, it may not yield results.

Otherwise maybe I'll have to transcribe "chakkani rAja mArgamu" instead :lol: :twisted: :mrgreen:

I am just using the forum editor to write those notations down. And it has it's limits and I would ideally prefer hand written notes where I can draw the gamaka movements and show it. It is a very big help and a tip I got from LGJ's hand written composition book which my violin teacher gave me. Still...

Anyone will try phrase 2?

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:GM, yeah, I do not want this thread to be centered around me, I wish more people who would like to learn participated here. You three are already at quite an advanced stage and are teachers and not students.

.
VK, I do say that in this thread, I have stayed centered on you, but even for me, this thread is not about you. It is just that so far, you are the only one that is asking and adopting ideas. I feel that I have given you mine, and this discussion is making me think, but I have little else to add.

Listening to music has so MANY aspects to it and most of us have one or two strengths. I am not more advanced than you and I'm embarrassed to be referred to as a teacher in your post. I've wondered if my ideas make sense, so I jumped at the chance to share them when you asked, as a co-listener. I do not consider myself "advanced" as a listener but I do consider many others here far more advanced than me, including you. Sometimes I don't even understand the discussions you engage in. I just know how MUCH depth there is and I will only skim the surface around me!

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote:@

Anyone will try phrase 2?
Srinath, I guess I'm included in the question, so I'll tell you.. I would do this only for the fun of it, but won't participate unless we agree not to slow down the video. No gnana from expanding the time, only just what you hear normally. Does that work for you? You don't have to agree and I'll be comfortable not participating.
:)

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Deal. Please do. I am picking my sample tapes so that we can avoid slowing down. This video I have already understood without having to slow down even once.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

We now getting wires crossed. Which video are you talking about. Lalgudi right?

Another deal . Let us make VK inclusive in all the conversation ( By VK , I mean a level he feels he is trailing behind, and that applies to many a VKs of posterity). He has already accused us of being teachers. I secretly enjoy it :). But , let us be a considerate teacher at least.

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Lalgudi it is. I wish I had my violin and some privacy to practice then maybe I could have given something even simpler. But as far as this goes, the phrases in this video are simpler and you have the visual reference too.

Pilots, you have the aircraft now.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thanks, I'm busy for the next 8 hours, you can go ahead and write your notations (all of you) or wait .. In any case I will listen and post as soon as I am free.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yes, do fly as high as you like. I do not mind trailing, this way i know what to look forward to. ( my boss's advice of late is, don't be the 'est person in a room. ( smartest, cutest...). It is hard work, it annoys everyone else, you do not have anything to look forward to and you can only go down which isn't a lot of fun ;) ) j/k

I can not hum and get the swaras for 'om namo nama'. That is the ongoing skill development. It is too late anyway, I had been trying that on the flute. The closest sounding one is: 'P, M1 G2, M1, G2 R2, G2 M1 R2 S, S, Though G2 M1 R2 goes with the dominant raga theme, P, M1 G2 M1, G2 R2, G2 R2, S S, S, also sounds close.

I will work on LGJ Madyamavathi later on. It is OK if you post the swaras, I will do it without consulting your answers and then compare.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sorry, been busy till just an hour ago.. I'm almost done, have a small part left, probably the most crowded with swarms.. I've scribbled the whole thing down on paper, and from my experience looking at some other snippets that were notated by one of you, it is unreadable, incomprehensible. Sometimes, when I restart the music in the middle, I find it hard to find where it is in the text before it is too late! Nothing more boring.. Is there a better way? Should I post in small parts? And who are all going to post notations?

I only did the LGJ part, not planning to do Krishnan's.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Turns out I was doing Krishnan's too, wasn't looking at the video, though I stopped and rewound many times to get the very fast swarms.. Done all of it except one or two fast phrases and then it slows down becoming very easy again but I am too tired. Now you all tell me what to do with what I have written down.

what about the two of you? Where are you with it?

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki,
I am with you. It is a great task to notate and I am still finding a way to do it. Luckily , unlike /srinath I have the instrument with me, and I can follow it and soak in it. But notating itself is an art to be learnt I think . I think swara writing is not as easy as swara deciphering. :cry:
I will find a way out. I tried scribbling in paper too , but that works deterrent . Be there soon.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Btw do you recognize the younger man playing the tambura?

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

That was why I was asking you to work on no more than a couple of phrases at a time. :P It is one atom after another over time that makes the ocean. :-)

But it's definitely a great effort and i can fully appreciate the struggle. I am eagerly looking forward to see it. It took me 5 hours once to notate LGJs magnificent Meru Santana rendition so it's hard. My teacher liked it so much he took a copy and that was so encouraging. You may have already seen it is a little difficult to type notation on the pc. :P

A tip, try to sing the phrase your hear by yourself and decode it then and there not on paper, but do sing or play. It is easier.

I think it was Vitthal Ramamurthy on the tanpura.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Mohan Iyer had a notation macro for Word ( I think ). I will alert him to this thread and he can explain if what he did is relevant here.

mohan
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by mohan »

You can download the 'swaram' font for Windows I developed at:
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/fonts/carnatic-fonts.zip

An example of this font in use is at http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/bhavayami.pdf

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Mohan

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote:That was why I was asking you to work on no more than a couple of phrases at a time. :P It is one atom after another over time that makes the ocean. :-)

A tip, try to sing the phrase your hear by yourself and decode it then -and there not on paper, but do sing or play. It is easier.

I think it was Vitthal Ramamurthy on the tanpura.
Correct, it was Vitthal.


Well I intended to do it little by little, but I got carried away, immersed in it. Decoding is not difficult for me, except for the fastest brighas or anuswarams, but writing it out is. Unfortunately I don't have a computer now as it has conked.. I didn't notice b4 typing this on my phone whether Mohan's software it was a mobile app .

Ihad written the notes then and there, but not on PC, so I didn't experience that, but I imagine this software may make it better.

My question is - how do we share it? I don't want to write a page of incomprehensible swaras.. And I want it to be a sharing, fun experience.

What do you propose?

SrinathK
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by SrinathK »

Two ways. Write it phrase by phrase like I have here, one phrase per line. If necessary specify the time in the video where it occurs and we'll cover this over a few posts. Else, write in a notebook, take a snap, upload to dropbox and share the link.

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