Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

To teach and learn Indian classical music
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Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vijay wrote:Sujiram I am still trying to visualize how one can play an instrument without realizing what swaras are being played. This really tests some of my fundamental assumptions about instrumental music! But if I were to take the Akilandeshwari example you mentioned, surely you were able to reproduce it only because of an innate sense of sruthi (whether in your fingers on your head). I mean I could understand if you knew the song but if you were able to reproduce a song in a scale you did not know, it means you have developed the highest sruthi sense there is!
We are discussing about making out swaras and phrases from Alapanas in this thread aren't we? The same applied to the kriti akhilandeshwari. It was trail and error offcourse. I did realise soon it has both G and other swarastanas. I need to hear vocal renditions not even instrumental to learn anything on violin (I listen to 90 % vocal all the time).

Highest Sruti sense ? I do not know.
If I could play hindi film songs as a kid, I guess my fingers already knew music.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 12 Sep 2007, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:vk,

I use the swaras only as a reference and NOT while singing (this also gets near impossible in krithis atleast for me). The moment I start thinking "remember that next word/syllable you are going to sing is dppmgrs-" - its over :). It will come out wrong - flat, probably apaswara.
Arun
Arun,
TRy learning a kriti without swaras. I know I am asking you to be a parrot. I think you are over analyzing while learning itself and that is the problem. Go just by hearing a recording of sahitya. There is always time to analyse the swaras behind it and then offcourse perfect your singing after you know it.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:But then why do many of us still get all worked up about knowing the swaras? I just think that some people (me, you as starters) are "wired a bit differently" that we think we must know the nuts-and-bolts behind the phrases - otherwise it somehow still remains a enigma, a mystery. We fill we do not know everything there is to know about it and we cannot rest while that possibility lies there - inviting. We are not satisfied in being able to relate to, identify with and even sing/play a phrase without knowing its precise contours in swara form. I guess that's how some of us are - sigh! :)

Arun
Sounds so much like myself. When I cannot play a complicated sangati, my Mom tells me you can skip that, but I cannot give up until I figured it out.

Arun, Learning an instrument might help here.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji - i was implying that that is why i don't think of the swaras. I use them a "handy reference if needed" - and I dont use them while singing.

Learning a krithi without swaras - have done that too. But may be it is just me, unless I hear the recorded lesson repeatedly (as a handy reference), I unconciously morph the sangati. So in that respect, the swaras are very useful - atleast to me. I can always resync to what I am supposed to sing without having to hunt down and listen the recording.

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji Ram wrote:Learning an instrument might help here.
:). Actually learning from a teacher who is a instrumentalist works too. I am glad I have that - i.e. given my inclinations here.

Bhindi
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Post by Bhindi »

VK,

In your opening post you mentioned "For a particular raga, there seems to be a characteristic 'color' depending on the four quadrants where the music happens to be."

I love to listen to Carnatic music but cannot differentiate between ragas and complex koruvais etc. Please use the youtube video example of Mayamalawagoula ragam and explain the 4 quadrants you were talking about. It will help me a lot to understand this discussion.

Bhindi
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Post by Bhindi »

By the way could some one please tell me how to quote just a single line of text from a post without having to type or quote the whole post

Thank you in advance.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Bhindi wrote:By the way could some one please tell me how to quote just a single line of text from a post without having to type or quote the whole post
Thank you in advance.
Hit the quote button on your right to the corresponding post.
You can erase the lines you don't want by using delete or back space, but be sure not to erase the tag "qoute" in brackets on either side of it.

Mod Addition: Another method is: In the reply box, copy and paste the lines you want, select those lines and hit the quote button. It is the right most button in the series of buttons above the emoticons.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Arun, to the extent we are talking about amateurs/dabblers, I think we are on the same page...

As far as professionals are concerned, I am afraid I do have high expectations of swara gyanam. I am not insistent that every swara in an alaapanai needs to be reproduced on demand (although there are many musicians for whom this is child's play) but there should be a certain minimum standard (which I admit is subjective)

Taking your example of Abheri - I cannot bring myself to think much of a musician who can rattle off phrases in the raga without an understanding of its swaras. For me there is little that differentiates such a person from a playback singer except perhaps greater vocal dexterity (but often at the cost of sruthi). But I will admit that that is just my viewpoint and I do not wish to impose it on anyone else.

What attracted me to CM, more than anything else was its intellectual content. That's the element I look for more than anything else and it's what I believe really differentiates CM (and to a lesser extent HM) from other forms of music. As a consequence, it is intellectually curious artistes that I am drawn towards (which I suppose explains my fascination for TNS, TRS, Sanjay, GNB, Voleti among many others).

In any case, it is quite impossible for a professional carnatic musician of any standing not to have basic proficiency in swaras gyaanam (although as I have noted above, in many cases it appears to me as grossly inadequate) - singing swaras for example is hardly possible without a basic level of knowledge...

Anyway, to cut a long (and potentially diversionary) story short, it is certainly OK for dabblers not be swara aware but for professionals, in my opinion at least, it ought to be a central part of one's artistic quest....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji: That is a great gift you have, to go from melody to finger movements & techniques without using the swaras as an in between. That is where I want to get to, not necessarily the lowest level swara breakdown. Incidentally, if I can do what you can do, the swara break down is then a simple exercise of noting what I am playing and writing it down. I have a feeling that those who can do it naturally are born with it. But then I hope it may be possible for someone who does not have it like me to get there. In the context of this discussion, 'swara gyanam' includes both of the above kinds of gyanam.

Arun: I agree with you on our propensity to know clearly and without any obfuscation at a lower level of detail. On the music front, I am trying to move away from intellecutalizing it too much to the 'understand and enjoy' level. But it is a grey area between the two.

Bhindi: I assume you understood what I meant by the four quadrants( low ga to sa first Quadrant, sa to pa second quadrant, pa to high SA third quadrant and high SA to high PA fourth quadrant ). I am grasping at straws at all this so I am not the right person to map that youtube MMG to the quadrants. If the the vidwan vocalized the swaras while playing that, then it would be easy and a good starting point. Others correct me on this but I think most songs stay in the second and third quadrant for a majority of the time. If it goes decisively to the first or fourth, you will readily notice. Another one that is probably easy to notice is the song beginning. Song beginnings tend to be in the second quadrant through there are some sparkling exceptions. Saroja Dhala Nethri ( sankarabaranam ) starts high and I would tentatively slot it in the 3rd quadrant. kAru bAru ( mukhari ) starts very high and I would tentatively slot it in the fourth quadrant. SS Bhairavi Swarajathi 'amba kamakshi' starts really low and I would slot that in the first quadrant.

While I am at it, here is a tip regarding 'playing along'. What Akkarai Subbulakshmi's dad taught her to do ( playing along to recordings ) is possible with the violin since the sruthi can be changed at a finer level of granularity. For a fixed sruthi instrument like flute, modern technology comes to rescue by doing the opposite. If the recording is in mp3 form, load it into a program like audacity and adjust the pitch of the recording. It does a good job without distorting the music much. It would not sound like the original recording but that is OK for this purpose. ( even if someone has multiple flutes with various sruthis, it still may not match the sruthi of the recording ). I have tried that with one or two songs as a way to wire the brain to the fingers directly ( like what Suji does.). (I am a long way from getting there.) This trick/technique may be useful for vocalists as well.

One pleasant gift was, a recording of MSS's Swara Raga Sudha I have is already at the exact pitch I wanted and it was a pleasant experience to just play along with her to the extent I can, especially the long held notes Sa, Ga and Pa.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

VK,
Noting down swaras as you play is a good idea of understanding music. I often do this in my bus commute while listening to artist's renditions especially alapanas or certain sangatis. Ocassionally my fingers seem to move as if playing a virtual violin. I write down the swaras and go home and check on the instrument to see if I guessed them right.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I may be mistaken and this is no way trivializing what suji has, but I think that for (decent, amateur) instrumentalists to reproduce a phrase that they just heard - there need not be a breakdown of swaras stage. In other words, many do it the way suji does. I definitely used to think that this required swara knowledge so that they know the positions etc. - but I have heard people say "I just know where to play and how much to slide/bend to get that sound" or "(smile) I just play it".

Its like that the brain remembers how much bend is required on this fret/position to get that sound in that raga etc. - and so it all becomes sub-concious, and so they skip the active part of swara breakdown. It is possible that they remember in terms of "for this sound, this action is required".

Perhaps instrumentalists can confirm or refute this. Is this true (perhaps after a certain level of expertise - and that level is not like way above average)?

BTW, we know already this is true for vocal. Many people can simply repeat a phrase - even internalize it without knowing the constituent swaras. In fact, many kELvi gnyAnam rasikas can do a "decent" (for their level) job at doing arbitrary raga sketches - even without understanding anything. Now, in reality they may be subconciously pulling stuff from memory and piecing together. But I think that may be true even for pros during stage (i.e. pulling stuff from memory and piecing togethet on the fly but subconsciously).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 13 Sep 2007, 01:32, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Arun , you are right.
I think most of us discussing in this thread already have the knowledge of swaras(vocal and instruments). It does happen subconsciously. It's that unknown depths of CM we are all searching for.
Practice is the only key.

BTW I am still a dabbler..
Last edited by Suji Ram on 13 Sep 2007, 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Ignoramus,
You asked for the URL of Neyveli's RagAs Through Pallavi. Hope this works: http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sridharan
In his index, it is the 11th bullet.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I am a dabbler and a babbler ;)
Last edited by arunk on 13 Sep 2007, 01:58, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Now what are swaras? sa ri ga ma ....are they not sounds. For an instrumentalist that is the sound emanating from the instrument itself at the correct positions. Everytime a note is played it tell us what swara that is.

We don't need to learn a sahitya in swaras at all. Infact that is an additional exercise learning swaras first and then play sahitya. I won't have that patience if I really had to do it.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji: Are you offering a new way to think about playing instruments? Meaning, once you learn the mechanics of the instument for how each sound is produced, don't think about swaras but learn how to produce a sequence of sounds that matches the sahithya based melody?

As a second item, I have got to modify the 'born with it' theory I wrote before. I am taking it as a given that many people are born with 'musical gyanam'. But that does not necessarily translate to the 'finger memory' that you talk about. Somehow during the learning of the instruments that gyanam got wired to the mechanics of playing the instrument. To be specific, do you think if you just learn how to play the 7 swaras on the flute, that 'wiring' you have will translate to flute as well? May be keyboard is one instrument where you can test that possibility readily ( hope the difficulty with producing gamakams does not stand in the way of this experiment ).

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Suji: Are you offering a new way to think about playing instruments? Meaning, once you learn the mechanics of the instument for how each sound is produced, don't think about swaras but learn how to produce a sequence of sounds that matches the sahithya based melody?
This isn't a new way I think.
After learning geetham and varnams one is already familiar with swaras and its position. So while transitioning to sahitya just think about the sound and offcourse which raga and its scale. Soon the phrases in the raga will come alive. Subconsciously you will have the swara gyanam no matter what.

Even when I try alapana on violin my mind says tana nana, aaa ta da ri etc and I go automatically to play the phrases in that raga. The fingers know the swaras.

The facts I mentioned can be applied to any instruments even key board. When I started playing key board I did not know anything about music. Just moved my fingers to the melody. One immediately will know sounds going up and down with practice.

My teacher never taught underlying swaras (vocal and instrument) for kritis. If I made a mistake she would just say antara gandaram or shudda rishabam etc.. at that position that's all.

Now offcourse I am learmning on my own at my own snail pace.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Suji: To be specific, do you think if you just learn how to play the 7 swaras on the flute, that 'wiring' you have will translate to flute as well? ).
Yes, if I can learn to blow the swaras with proper gamakams, I will be able to translate that wiring to flute as well.
However, I will have to teach my right hand fingers. I can play keyboard with left hand only-maybe playing bulbul tara-that typewriter like instrument wired me that way :)
Last edited by Suji Ram on 13 Sep 2007, 06:32, edited 1 time in total.

mohan
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Post by mohan »

A few points (some of which have been raised already):
- Swara knowledge is essential for effective kalpana swara singing.
- Most of the vocal music teachers I know don't teach krithis swara by swara. If there is a difficulat sangati then the teacher may sing that sangati in swara form.
- for instrumentalists, accompanying other artistes reall helps develop their swara knowledge
- the lack of a perfect system of notation for Carnatic music has resulted in knowledge transfer to be based on an oral tradition. Over time this has resulted in sangatis for krithis being varied
- for vocalists and instrumentalists alike, learning varnams and practicing kalpana swaram will greatly enhance swara knowledge

vijay
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Post by vijay »

arunk wrote:I definitely used to think that this required swara knowledge so that they know the positions etc. - but I have heard people say "I just know where to play and how much to slide/bend to get that sound" or "(smile) I just play it".

Its like that the brain remembers how much bend is required on this fret/position to get that sound in that raga etc. - and so it all becomes sub-concious,
Arun
Even I was confused about Suji's statement that he could play something (i.e a piece not heard before) without a swara bbreak-down. Now it does start to make sense...in a sense it is no different from a lay person humming a tune without necessarily comprehending its musical form...

I suspect even artistes who do have a sound swara knowledge would be hindered if they continuously thought about what swaras they were singing, say during an alaapanai...I used to think that instrumentalists were somehow different but what Arun/Suji say makes sense now

SUch sub-conscious internalization is probably a pre-requisite for an effetive presentation but I think it is nevertheless important to keep continual track of where one is going with an alaapana, experiment with some new combinations, take cues from supporting artistes. Sanjay's alaapanas for example give me the impression that his mind is working on exploring possibile phrases even as he is delivering one...I find it very hard to keep track of the swaras in his alaapanas as compared to other artistes - he takes me by surprise very often and this is what makes him such an exhilarating performer..

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Even I was confused about Suji's statement that she could play something (i.e a piece not heard before) without a swara bbreak-down. Now it does start to make sense...in a sense it is no different from a lay person humming a tune without necessarily comprehending its musical form...
But there is a slight difference from layman humming. Once I play it I would know immediately the swaras behind it.

There is a nice lecdem by Vidushi Smt Vedavalli on learning varnams and manodharma.
There are different layers in learning CM.
Learning to play swaras helps alapanas and kalpana swaras, that is the basics.
Sahitya is another dimension where one needs to bring out bhavam which one can get only having sahitya in mind.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

in a sense it is no different from a lay person humming a tune without necessarily comprehending its musical form...
Vijay, how I wish it is just that way. I know what you are saying that at some level what is going on is 'no different'. May be so, but substantially at different magnitudes. Most people can hum a tune that they hear, nicely or not ( except one chinese colleague of mine she just did not have that ability which was quite strange ). It comes naturally without thinking about it. Using Suji's words, people can be a good parrot. But once you bring an instrument in to the picture and having the same ability is a pretty high achievement in itself. I just can not do it yet. One still have to train their hands, fingers and blowing which are the external counter parts to the vocal chords. It is quite fantastic that in some people that works in the same natural way.

I am not sure if you necessarily need individual swara breakdown for a great and creative alapana. ( though it may be very rare that an established musician may not have the individual swara knowledge.) If one believes that raga came first and then came its analysis into scale, swara etc. then theoretically raga should be describable, playable and demonstratable by directly translating ideas into raga music. Niraval might fall into the same picture. Kalpanaswaram singing by the very definition requires that swara breakdown but that is just the way it is. People will not accept it if you substitute your own solfa symbols or other sounds instead of sa ri ga ma pa...

Going a bit off topic but to illustrate a great exception: One famous example of a great musician who did not know any notes but who just played guitar at the highest level similar to what we are talking about here was Django Reinhardt.( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt ). May be because of that lack of established musical 'swara' knowledge, he managed to play in a unique fashion which is now recognized as a distinct bANi. There are many in Pop and Rock world who claim they can not read music ( it is mostly used as a promotional item to their target audience since that conveys an air of born musical genius ) but here is a case of high quality original music that came out of someone who did not know how to read music.

ignoramus
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Post by ignoramus »

arasi, thanks very much.. got it

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

There are many in Pop and Rock world who claim they can not read music ( it is mostly used as a promotional item to their target audience since that conveys an air of born musical genius ) but here is a case of high quality original music that came out of someone who did not know how to read music.
One needn't really know how to read music (western notes). Sound gyanam is sufficient. There are numerous scope for developing different styles as in the case of the famous guitarist you mentioned.

Our piano instructor told me that western classical music was once improvisational music before it got written down. I insisted on such lessons and he obliged and I am amazed at how creative the student can get when asked to improvise on C or D major without notes. I even insist on ear training on notes.

But still I am amazed at how they can coordinate left and right hand looking at the notes from the book in front of them. I am always told I can also do it too- just keep one eye on the book and the other on your hands. Now that's being like Mad-eye Moody :D
Last edited by Suji Ram on 13 Sep 2007, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

I agree with what Suji Ram astutely pointed out about swaras: They are themselves sounds. Our labeling each sound is, if you ask me, basically for notation and teaching purposes. Any experiences musician can visualise the exact position of a swara, and while composing an alapanai, are perfectly attuned to the sounds of the swaras, more than the notes themselves. I've only just started learning the violin formally. When I'm trying to play, say, Varnas, from memory, I can form a mental picture of the sound that has to complete the sequence of what I'm playing at the moment, but since my ability to identify with the pitch of each swara is poorly developed, I need to refer to my notes to complete the phrase, even though I know how it should go. I need to know the swara.

Experienced musicians don't need to refer to their notes, and don't need to visualise "sa" or "ga" in lettering, but can relate to the exact sound of the note, and so, they know how to play or sing. I think that as the audiological memory of a musician increases, he is less reliant on visual or textual memory, which is what I would categorise swaras as, but beginners need to rely on textual memory because we learn how to read much earlier than we learn music (generally), and we can read the "sa" and "pa" and understand them more quickly than we can identify these relatively new sounds that are entering our aural vocabulary.

Music really is a language. I think a good analogy would be the composing of an essay, which I liken to an alapanai. When I write an essay, I can easily write sentences without thinking hard about the exact order of the words or composition of the sentences. But sometimes, when I'm in a more creative mood, I do ponder about exact words, and their possible effect in sentences, and similarly, when an artiste is pondering about a certain new phrase, he probably does consider individual swaras, and their potential effect if vocalised, but most of the time, with more familiar ragas and phrases, he probably can just rattle off an alapanai like I would an easy essay. A very weird analogy, god. But I'm leaving it there should anyone see any semblance of sense in it.

(And yes, I'm thinking very hard about word choice in the composition of this message!)

Now, the difference between composing an alapanai and light-music-humming? This is very debatable, but I do think that people who listen to lots of film songs and can reproduce them, possess remarkable aural memory! And because they're able to sing phrases exactly, they must have swara shuddham as well. But if you gave them a song entirely in one raga and asked them to improvise on it? Would they be able to? If you asked them to give a written musical notation of the song they've been humming? Would they be able to? And the "musical" part of musicians' brains is better able to communicate with the "linguistic" part of their brain, since they're able to tag names to sounds when singing kalpana swaras. Light music hummers aren't able to do this. Carnatic musicians, in being able to accomplish all of these tasks, have, simply, a much stronger command over musical language.
Last edited by bilahari on 15 Sep 2007, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks bilahari,
You took the time to elaborate my point.

Another analogy- playing an instrument is like "type writing" if you think the alphabets are individual sounds. When you start to learn you go alphabet by alphabet and then over time can make quick movements to type a word based on the POSITIONS on the key board automatically. The memory is same for playing.


Another exercise I used to do is take a pen and draw a pattern on paper while listening to a complicated sangati.
The picture looks like ups and downs based on sounds ascending and descending. This tells me how to move along the positions in the instrument in that sruti I heard.
And I realised recently that the western notations we see on those 5 lines are just what I have been doing!!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Brilliant alapana, ah..hmm, writing, there Bilahari ;) Quite a few things to think about....wrt to calling swaras textual memory, I think it is more like symbolic memory, sa ri ga ma pa are symbols for the sounds as you mentioned and it need not be written down in any textual form. But then is there any substantive difference in playing a song by reading written notes and playing the song by memorizing the swaras? Don't know.

Here is a recent anecdote that is relatable to our discussion here. My friend's young daughter who can play flute very well by reading sheet music, played a Beatles tune out of a song book her dad bought for her. It is a song she has never heard before. He is very emotionally attached to that song and so was quite thrilled that her daughter could play his favorite song. But the daughter did not have any emotional attachment to the song or a 'feel' for the melody, she was simply transcribing from the sheet music on her flute and shrugging her shoulder she went 'what is the big deal?'.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:But then is there any substantive difference in playing a song by reading written notes and playing the song by memorizing the swaras?
good point.

You can do this exercise.

First write down sahitya for an easy song to begin with (a new one, not b Lakshmi).

Write down the swaras below it.

Now start playing with sahitya in mind occasional peeking at the line below if you are not sure what sound comes next. This way you don't memorize but have it written down as a guide.

Memorizing swaras ruins the purpose. It is like memorizing sahityam except that you are able to associate it with the swarastanas.

Believe me over time you will not need "swara" but only sound.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 15 Sep 2007, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji: Thanks. I will definitely give the techniques you suggest a try. Much appreciated.

>(a new one, not b Lakshmi).
:)

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

VK,
I agree that thoughtful writing is more like composing, but isn't an alapana a composition itself? The phrases are composed and synthesised to produce a coherent, fluid alapana, which really distinguishes a good musician. I have heard quite a few choppy alapanais with phrases that don't really transit in an aesthetic manner, much as a writer or composer should be able make ideas flow with ease in an essay or song.

I have been taught that different regions of the brain process text and symbols, which has always confused me somewhat since I consider words "symbols" themselves. Symbols for objects, ideas, etc. I recognise the difference between representational art and symbolic art (in the former, the brain processes an image that is straight out of its visual memory and can briskly correlate the two, and in the latter, the brain processes an image and correlates it to ANOTHER image in its memory, and is therefore a more complex process).

This idea of symbolism vs. representation is where Suji Ram's other creative idea, of assigning a certain proportional elevation to each note on paper, comes into discussion. My friend, who learns Western music, has always wondered how Carnatic musicians or students can simply read notes structured in a straight line, and understand where the music is going, and anticipate the next "move." It seems to me that Western music, by actually positioning the notes differently, is making the musician's job slightly less complex, less symbolic, and more representational (though not quite as directly as I described above). The Carnatic musician is much more challenged, since he is more or less forced to develop a symbolic-aural image in his mind about each swara, and I would think, either (a) catalyses the learning of musical language, or (b) frustrates the beginner (especially the vocalist) and drives him away from carnatic music, though perseverance pays rich dividends in sharpening the student's mind.

What do you guys think?

vijay
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Post by vijay »

bilahari wrote:Music really is a language. I think a good analogy would be the composing of an essay, which I liken to an alapanai. When I write an essay, I can easily write sentences without thinking hard about the exact order of the words or composition of the sentences. But sometimes, when I'm in a more creative mood, I do ponder about exact words, and their possible effect in sentences, and similarly, when an artiste is pondering about a certain new phrase, he probably does consider individual swaras, and their potential effect if vocalised, but most of the time, with more familiar ragas and phrases, he probably can just rattle off an alapanai like I would an easy essay. A very weird analogy, god. But I'm leaving it there should anyone see any semblance of sense in it.
Not weird at all Bilahari - pretty much sums up my own thoughts. When you are into an alaapana, a large part of it has to flow and it would not help if you keep thinking about swaras. At the same time, the thinking singer pauses occasioanly of think about new/novel swara combinations - just like you would pause to find the right word or phrase.

Thus while swara knowledge is vital, it is not necessary or advisable to be thinking about them constantly....besides a higher level of swara gnanam would help you subconsciously to 1) avoid mistakes and 2) be more creative....

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK, your analysis of western v carnatic music (or HM) is on the ball. I am not too sure about the nuances of representation or symbolism but the diff between WM (or for that matter Indian light music) and CM lies in the separation of composing and performing and the consequent demands on the mental resources of the performer.

A composer in WM/Pop/Film Music (their aesthetic merits notwithstanding) have the luxury of time in designing their music. Nor, are they bound by complex grammar - their only limitation is their own aesthetic sensibility and creative prowess. The demands on the perfomer are still less. The only requirement is a mastery of the voice/instrument.

The Indian classical musician on the other hand is largely both the performer and the composer, has almost no time to ponder over the merits of his "compositions" and is tightly bound by grammar. In CM he/she is further challenged by the need to have a large repertoire of complex compositions and pay particular attention to laya! The worst placed is the poor violinist who also has additional millstone of the vocalist's musical direction around her neck! The challenges are of a different order from any other form of music I know...

Yes this does intimidate the beginner but the curious student is also addicted for life.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

My friend, who learns Western music, has always wondered how Carnatic musicians or students can simply read notes structured in a straight line, and understand where the music is going, and anticipate the next "move."
I'm asked on almost daily basis how I learn with my eyes closed :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay: When I first read bilahari's paragraph that you quoted, I figured you will grab on to that ;)

The crux of the issue is: Can creativity come from non-spontaneous pondering ( swaras or words ).

I am not convinced on both counts: Whether the singer should think in terms of swaras that hard during an alapana or the writer should think in terms of words.

On the writing front, the modern western thinking is definitely along the lines Bilahari and you feel is the way to go. Meaning, it is a cyclical process, ideas come first, you put them into words and sentences and then tinker with them, rearrange them until the aesthetics and clarity of presentation are improved while retaining the original idea. I was indeed surprised when I heard that first but then I caught myself doing pretty much the same thing. But I am not convinced if that is the method that brings forth the maximum creativity in writing. There is some romaticism associated with spontaneity that is lost.

The defense for this approach is: What is central to creativity are the "ideas" and not the representation or presentation of that idea. It takes some effort to make that representation match as closely as possible to the idea. That is a trial and error process which requires some critical and analytical thinking. That is why it is justified to bring in thinking at the word, phrase and sentence level as long as it helps to present the same original idea.

On the music side, I am a bit more biassed towards spontaneity of ideas and presentation. But that is just personal opinion and taste. Thinking is actually a deterrant to creativity in some cases. I agree it is a bit odd to state it this way since we are encouraged to think all the time. I am willing to take a bit of disorganized presentation if there is a chance that manodharma music can emanate from the non-thinking musical brain.

The analogy for manodharma sangeetham that works for me is some aspects of public speaking since I can relate to it a litle bit more. You go prepared and you are strong in the substance of the material you want to present. But once you get going with the presentation, when you are in that undefinable zone, the exact form of presentation of the same ideas just flows and is derived on the spot. The audience's body language also feeds into that on the spot creative process. So the same speech given on different occasions will be completely different in 'color'. Preparation and pondering comes first followed by the spontaneity which rides on that pre-determined and prepared stuff as the base.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Pubilc speaking is a good example, VK...similarly in carnatic music, quality and innovative ideas should flow spontaneously...of course this is next to impossible to achieve unless one is immersed in swara gnana, laya gnana among other things...thus the innovation is not borne out of a vacuum of knowledge, thought or analysis although these need not be overt elements during the presentation...

Let me take another example - a korvai for example - you can either churn out a mugged up korvai (no harm done - most artistes do)...or you can do some quick calculations based on patterns you are familiar with and construct it on the spot - the seasoned musician (say a TNS and most percussionists) really does not have to give this too much thought - it just flows on the strength of his immense knowledge - a quick mental check's enough - of course these complicated things can flop at times - but that is the challenge!

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

VK,

You ask:
"The crux of the issue is: Can creativity come from non-spontaneous pondering ( swaras or words )?"

But doesn't creativity, and creation, invariably emanate from a pre-existing condition? We still don't know when time started, or when the universe, what we presume is the first creation, was made. As far as we know, things are born from others. I definitely agree with you that preparation must serve as the base of creativity, and I also agree that spontaneity is a very romantic concept, and the offspring of the process, whether flawed or awe-inspiring, should be appreciated. I'm a painter, and my last art teacher always used to encourage spontaneous, creative art. On the spur of the moment, I once painted a self-portrait, where my nose was way too crooked, and my face hideously long, and my teacher loved it! I hated it for these fatal flaws, but she insisted that anything creative, flaws and all, is at least interesting and new. With plenty of preparation, I could've painted a pretty accurate self-portrait, but what would be so interesting about it? It might be a wonderful accomplishment, it might've taken lot of talent and effort, but at the end of the day, it would be rather mundane (I kind of relate this to KVN's recordings -- I'm a big fan -- which demonstrate his remarkable shruti shuddham, and his ability to weave a beautiful alapanai and an evocative neraval, etc, but he rarely elevated(?) his music by introducing novelties.)

I definitely appreciate creativity, but the cost (the flaws) cannot outweigh the profit (or even break even). In sum, I still remain somewhat of a traditionalist (an open-minded one, I like to think!).

I'm certain of something though. For a commercial musician, a vast body of knowledge is a necessary condition conducive to creativity. A musician might not have listened to others, or might not know phrases used by them, or the phrases used in compositions he does not know, and he might outdo himself in a concert by introducing a phrase he thinks is novel, but for a knowledgeable audience, is really not... (Quoting Vijay, who attributes the flow of TNS's creativity to "the strength of his immense knowledge").

Really, if one wants to be creative, if one wants to stretch the boundaries of something, one must first be fully cognisant of these boundaries!
Last edited by bilahari on 15 Sep 2007, 16:49, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Very interesting, Bilahari, VK and Vijay!
I hope CML feels better and starts taking part in this discussion.

You speak both of music and writing. Since I am a dabbler in both genres, though not that organized in my thoughts as you as a scientist are, VK, I see how all the three of you touch upon my own experiences!
Ah, experiences is very much the basis of it all. The formal kind and of one's own creative learning of it. Then comes the performance or presentation. We all agree a performance is somewhat artificial ( staged). Yet, why do we get immersed in a concert? Why do we get excited about the music? It is not the perfect rendering of a rAgA and kriti that draws us in. Of course, we are impressed by the vidwat there.
It is the creativity which takes us to another plane--the very plane that the performer has reached. I do not know cricket. I can say it with a baseball twist: the seasoned player knows every rule in the book. He knows the boundaries of the field. He knows how to hit the right way, how to run the bases. However, while he is out there, these are not the things that occupy his being (I avoid the word mind because it is not that alone). Hitting a home run cannot be a calcualted thing. It just happens.
Even more so, in a performance. So, to me, if the foundation is solid, what springs out of it--given the fact that the artiste is highly creative and challenges himself or herself constantly, it happens. Vijay, I think we agree on this.

Bilahari,
You said it well: I am traditional with an open mind!

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

The variegated anecdotes and analogies springing up on this thread are very intriguing!

Now that we're on the process of concert presentation (right from preparation to on-stage presentation), could members of the forum who actively engage in concerts tell us a bit about how they prepare for a concert? What is it like on stage? How conscious are you of your improvisation, of swara vs. sound, what affects your performance (in terms of other performers on stage, audience, etc)? In short, what is the kutchery-presenting experience like?

I would be especially interested in hearing msakella sir's accounts about accompanying...
Last edited by bilahari on 15 Sep 2007, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

bilahari wrote:Now that we're on the process of concert presentation (right from preparation to on-stage presentation), could members of the forum who actively engage in concerts tell us a bit about how they prepare for a concert? What is it like on stage? How conscious are you of your improvisation, of swara vs. sound, what affects your performance (in terms of other performers on stage, audience, etc)?
I was thinking about this and avoided writing the same in the begining since this a dabblers ground. We needed as much babbling(to borrow arun's word) from inexperienced folks(including me). Now is the time to ask....

All the while was wondering what the active performers who might read this thread wonder about us. Did they go through the same experience ?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

shadjam wrote:vk,

I second Ninja's idea of uploading bits of music (say 20-25 secs each) and let the rasikas identify the corresponding swarams. This can be made as a quiz. We could take 20-25 such bits for each major raga and could upload these on a daily basis. What do you guys say?
So as a time-pass and show-off (err... expose ;) ) our swara knowledge skills, can we try this?

If so, one possibility is to create 2 threads.
The questions thread: Where we post (or points to) samples and associated questions.
The answers thread: Where people post/discuss/debate answers.

So that way answers are not automatically revealed unless you go to the answers thread. Also no point system, no winner. We are just looking to learn from each other by dabbling and babbling and possibly to the amusement of the knowledgeable.

Note that we do not have to create new threads for every sample. We can simple reuse these two. This means that we need to clearly number the questions thread, and always refer to it in the answrs thread.

Anybody game? If there is good interest, I can post/make-available a first sample (for which I may not know all the answers. So this is not like Drs doing it :)).

Arun

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

Arun,

Excellent Idea!! I will upload some scintillating bits when I can... We can use this as the discussion thread for the answers (so the Q & A's don't get cluttered up)..

Ninja

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I would be interested (I am being bold)
Nevertheless would learn along the way....

It will be a move from raga identification to swara identification...
Last edited by Suji Ram on 17 Sep 2007, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ok - i will try to initiate it a bit later today. Should we start with an "easy" raga (say pentatonic) or does not matter?

Arun

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Let there be two categories: Vocal and Instrumental. As we hone our skills we may gain expertise on both.

Arun you be our quiz master!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Easy ones to start with Arun. Pentatonic ragas would be a good start.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Easy raga, easy parts first.
Then easy raga complicated parts.... in that order.

CML, you can be the final judge with fourier analysis (provided the correct Sruti is used)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cml - quiz master needs to know the answers. I dont qualify. Instrumental vs Vocal - ok - but we will posting alapanas and so it may not matter. I was thinking any sample can be vocal or instrumental. I am fine either way

Let us not view it like a quiz - let us view it like a group exercise (albeit with individual effort - but we share our efforts).

For the first one, I thought I will keep it a bit generic. I will post a sample and the exercise is to
(a) identify the raga - I think this should be easy.
(b) identify where the different swaras in the raga in all stayis (assuming they figure - all need not in the sample). You can identify as many spots as you want - but if you just pick the place where it is prominent that is fine.
(c) figure out each swara for just one small section (for starters).

I really like (b) as a starting point i.e. as a baby step before we start runnning. - but that means sample could get be a bit long (say 2-3 minutes). So (c) would be for just one (very) small section. Is that ok?

Later we can move to succeeding sections. Also in subsequent exercises the sampe may be short in itself.

Also, I think we should take turns in being "exercise master".

Thoughts? (sample is ready :) )

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 18 Sep 2007, 00:58, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

So in b) do we give time points for each of the swaras?

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, that sounds fine. Make sure we get the sense of the base sruthi in the sample. If you feel it is not prominent, cut and paste some initial tamboora or held Sa notes from another part of the song. Atleast initially and if the clip is short. Thanks.

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