Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

To teach and learn Indian classical music
bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

I agree with what Suji Ram astutely pointed out about swaras: They are themselves sounds. Our labeling each sound is, if you ask me, basically for notation and teaching purposes. Any experiences musician can visualise the exact position of a swara, and while composing an alapanai, are perfectly attuned to the sounds of the swaras, more than the notes themselves. I've only just started learning the violin formally. When I'm trying to play, say, Varnas, from memory, I can form a mental picture of the sound that has to complete the sequence of what I'm playing at the moment, but since my ability to identify with the pitch of each swara is poorly developed, I need to refer to my notes to complete the phrase, even though I know how it should go. I need to know the swara.

Experienced musicians don't need to refer to their notes, and don't need to visualise "sa" or "ga" in lettering, but can relate to the exact sound of the note, and so, they know how to play or sing. I think that as the audiological memory of a musician increases, he is less reliant on visual or textual memory, which is what I would categorise swaras as, but beginners need to rely on textual memory because we learn how to read much earlier than we learn music (generally), and we can read the "sa" and "pa" and understand them more quickly than we can identify these relatively new sounds that are entering our aural vocabulary.

Music really is a language. I think a good analogy would be the composing of an essay, which I liken to an alapanai. When I write an essay, I can easily write sentences without thinking hard about the exact order of the words or composition of the sentences. But sometimes, when I'm in a more creative mood, I do ponder about exact words, and their possible effect in sentences, and similarly, when an artiste is pondering about a certain new phrase, he probably does consider individual swaras, and their potential effect if vocalised, but most of the time, with more familiar ragas and phrases, he probably can just rattle off an alapanai like I would an easy essay. A very weird analogy, god. But I'm leaving it there should anyone see any semblance of sense in it.

(And yes, I'm thinking very hard about word choice in the composition of this message!)

Now, the difference between composing an alapanai and light-music-humming? This is very debatable, but I do think that people who listen to lots of film songs and can reproduce them, possess remarkable aural memory! And because they're able to sing phrases exactly, they must have swara shuddham as well. But if you gave them a song entirely in one raga and asked them to improvise on it? Would they be able to? If you asked them to give a written musical notation of the song they've been humming? Would they be able to? And the "musical" part of musicians' brains is better able to communicate with the "linguistic" part of their brain, since they're able to tag names to sounds when singing kalpana swaras. Light music hummers aren't able to do this. Carnatic musicians, in being able to accomplish all of these tasks, have, simply, a much stronger command over musical language.
Last edited by bilahari on 15 Sep 2007, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks bilahari,
You took the time to elaborate my point.

Another analogy- playing an instrument is like "type writing" if you think the alphabets are individual sounds. When you start to learn you go alphabet by alphabet and then over time can make quick movements to type a word based on the POSITIONS on the key board automatically. The memory is same for playing.


Another exercise I used to do is take a pen and draw a pattern on paper while listening to a complicated sangati.
The picture looks like ups and downs based on sounds ascending and descending. This tells me how to move along the positions in the instrument in that sruti I heard.
And I realised recently that the western notations we see on those 5 lines are just what I have been doing!!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Brilliant alapana, ah..hmm, writing, there Bilahari ;) Quite a few things to think about....wrt to calling swaras textual memory, I think it is more like symbolic memory, sa ri ga ma pa are symbols for the sounds as you mentioned and it need not be written down in any textual form. But then is there any substantive difference in playing a song by reading written notes and playing the song by memorizing the swaras? Don't know.

Here is a recent anecdote that is relatable to our discussion here. My friend's young daughter who can play flute very well by reading sheet music, played a Beatles tune out of a song book her dad bought for her. It is a song she has never heard before. He is very emotionally attached to that song and so was quite thrilled that her daughter could play his favorite song. But the daughter did not have any emotional attachment to the song or a 'feel' for the melody, she was simply transcribing from the sheet music on her flute and shrugging her shoulder she went 'what is the big deal?'.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:But then is there any substantive difference in playing a song by reading written notes and playing the song by memorizing the swaras?
good point.

You can do this exercise.

First write down sahitya for an easy song to begin with (a new one, not b Lakshmi).

Write down the swaras below it.

Now start playing with sahitya in mind occasional peeking at the line below if you are not sure what sound comes next. This way you don't memorize but have it written down as a guide.

Memorizing swaras ruins the purpose. It is like memorizing sahityam except that you are able to associate it with the swarastanas.

Believe me over time you will not need "swara" but only sound.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 15 Sep 2007, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji: Thanks. I will definitely give the techniques you suggest a try. Much appreciated.

>(a new one, not b Lakshmi).
:)

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

VK,
I agree that thoughtful writing is more like composing, but isn't an alapana a composition itself? The phrases are composed and synthesised to produce a coherent, fluid alapana, which really distinguishes a good musician. I have heard quite a few choppy alapanais with phrases that don't really transit in an aesthetic manner, much as a writer or composer should be able make ideas flow with ease in an essay or song.

I have been taught that different regions of the brain process text and symbols, which has always confused me somewhat since I consider words "symbols" themselves. Symbols for objects, ideas, etc. I recognise the difference between representational art and symbolic art (in the former, the brain processes an image that is straight out of its visual memory and can briskly correlate the two, and in the latter, the brain processes an image and correlates it to ANOTHER image in its memory, and is therefore a more complex process).

This idea of symbolism vs. representation is where Suji Ram's other creative idea, of assigning a certain proportional elevation to each note on paper, comes into discussion. My friend, who learns Western music, has always wondered how Carnatic musicians or students can simply read notes structured in a straight line, and understand where the music is going, and anticipate the next "move." It seems to me that Western music, by actually positioning the notes differently, is making the musician's job slightly less complex, less symbolic, and more representational (though not quite as directly as I described above). The Carnatic musician is much more challenged, since he is more or less forced to develop a symbolic-aural image in his mind about each swara, and I would think, either (a) catalyses the learning of musical language, or (b) frustrates the beginner (especially the vocalist) and drives him away from carnatic music, though perseverance pays rich dividends in sharpening the student's mind.

What do you guys think?

vijay
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Post by vijay »

bilahari wrote:Music really is a language. I think a good analogy would be the composing of an essay, which I liken to an alapanai. When I write an essay, I can easily write sentences without thinking hard about the exact order of the words or composition of the sentences. But sometimes, when I'm in a more creative mood, I do ponder about exact words, and their possible effect in sentences, and similarly, when an artiste is pondering about a certain new phrase, he probably does consider individual swaras, and their potential effect if vocalised, but most of the time, with more familiar ragas and phrases, he probably can just rattle off an alapanai like I would an easy essay. A very weird analogy, god. But I'm leaving it there should anyone see any semblance of sense in it.
Not weird at all Bilahari - pretty much sums up my own thoughts. When you are into an alaapana, a large part of it has to flow and it would not help if you keep thinking about swaras. At the same time, the thinking singer pauses occasioanly of think about new/novel swara combinations - just like you would pause to find the right word or phrase.

Thus while swara knowledge is vital, it is not necessary or advisable to be thinking about them constantly....besides a higher level of swara gnanam would help you subconsciously to 1) avoid mistakes and 2) be more creative....

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK, your analysis of western v carnatic music (or HM) is on the ball. I am not too sure about the nuances of representation or symbolism but the diff between WM (or for that matter Indian light music) and CM lies in the separation of composing and performing and the consequent demands on the mental resources of the performer.

A composer in WM/Pop/Film Music (their aesthetic merits notwithstanding) have the luxury of time in designing their music. Nor, are they bound by complex grammar - their only limitation is their own aesthetic sensibility and creative prowess. The demands on the perfomer are still less. The only requirement is a mastery of the voice/instrument.

The Indian classical musician on the other hand is largely both the performer and the composer, has almost no time to ponder over the merits of his "compositions" and is tightly bound by grammar. In CM he/she is further challenged by the need to have a large repertoire of complex compositions and pay particular attention to laya! The worst placed is the poor violinist who also has additional millstone of the vocalist's musical direction around her neck! The challenges are of a different order from any other form of music I know...

Yes this does intimidate the beginner but the curious student is also addicted for life.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

My friend, who learns Western music, has always wondered how Carnatic musicians or students can simply read notes structured in a straight line, and understand where the music is going, and anticipate the next "move."
I'm asked on almost daily basis how I learn with my eyes closed :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay: When I first read bilahari's paragraph that you quoted, I figured you will grab on to that ;)

The crux of the issue is: Can creativity come from non-spontaneous pondering ( swaras or words ).

I am not convinced on both counts: Whether the singer should think in terms of swaras that hard during an alapana or the writer should think in terms of words.

On the writing front, the modern western thinking is definitely along the lines Bilahari and you feel is the way to go. Meaning, it is a cyclical process, ideas come first, you put them into words and sentences and then tinker with them, rearrange them until the aesthetics and clarity of presentation are improved while retaining the original idea. I was indeed surprised when I heard that first but then I caught myself doing pretty much the same thing. But I am not convinced if that is the method that brings forth the maximum creativity in writing. There is some romaticism associated with spontaneity that is lost.

The defense for this approach is: What is central to creativity are the "ideas" and not the representation or presentation of that idea. It takes some effort to make that representation match as closely as possible to the idea. That is a trial and error process which requires some critical and analytical thinking. That is why it is justified to bring in thinking at the word, phrase and sentence level as long as it helps to present the same original idea.

On the music side, I am a bit more biassed towards spontaneity of ideas and presentation. But that is just personal opinion and taste. Thinking is actually a deterrant to creativity in some cases. I agree it is a bit odd to state it this way since we are encouraged to think all the time. I am willing to take a bit of disorganized presentation if there is a chance that manodharma music can emanate from the non-thinking musical brain.

The analogy for manodharma sangeetham that works for me is some aspects of public speaking since I can relate to it a litle bit more. You go prepared and you are strong in the substance of the material you want to present. But once you get going with the presentation, when you are in that undefinable zone, the exact form of presentation of the same ideas just flows and is derived on the spot. The audience's body language also feeds into that on the spot creative process. So the same speech given on different occasions will be completely different in 'color'. Preparation and pondering comes first followed by the spontaneity which rides on that pre-determined and prepared stuff as the base.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Pubilc speaking is a good example, VK...similarly in carnatic music, quality and innovative ideas should flow spontaneously...of course this is next to impossible to achieve unless one is immersed in swara gnana, laya gnana among other things...thus the innovation is not borne out of a vacuum of knowledge, thought or analysis although these need not be overt elements during the presentation...

Let me take another example - a korvai for example - you can either churn out a mugged up korvai (no harm done - most artistes do)...or you can do some quick calculations based on patterns you are familiar with and construct it on the spot - the seasoned musician (say a TNS and most percussionists) really does not have to give this too much thought - it just flows on the strength of his immense knowledge - a quick mental check's enough - of course these complicated things can flop at times - but that is the challenge!

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

VK,

You ask:
"The crux of the issue is: Can creativity come from non-spontaneous pondering ( swaras or words )?"

But doesn't creativity, and creation, invariably emanate from a pre-existing condition? We still don't know when time started, or when the universe, what we presume is the first creation, was made. As far as we know, things are born from others. I definitely agree with you that preparation must serve as the base of creativity, and I also agree that spontaneity is a very romantic concept, and the offspring of the process, whether flawed or awe-inspiring, should be appreciated. I'm a painter, and my last art teacher always used to encourage spontaneous, creative art. On the spur of the moment, I once painted a self-portrait, where my nose was way too crooked, and my face hideously long, and my teacher loved it! I hated it for these fatal flaws, but she insisted that anything creative, flaws and all, is at least interesting and new. With plenty of preparation, I could've painted a pretty accurate self-portrait, but what would be so interesting about it? It might be a wonderful accomplishment, it might've taken lot of talent and effort, but at the end of the day, it would be rather mundane (I kind of relate this to KVN's recordings -- I'm a big fan -- which demonstrate his remarkable shruti shuddham, and his ability to weave a beautiful alapanai and an evocative neraval, etc, but he rarely elevated(?) his music by introducing novelties.)

I definitely appreciate creativity, but the cost (the flaws) cannot outweigh the profit (or even break even). In sum, I still remain somewhat of a traditionalist (an open-minded one, I like to think!).

I'm certain of something though. For a commercial musician, a vast body of knowledge is a necessary condition conducive to creativity. A musician might not have listened to others, or might not know phrases used by them, or the phrases used in compositions he does not know, and he might outdo himself in a concert by introducing a phrase he thinks is novel, but for a knowledgeable audience, is really not... (Quoting Vijay, who attributes the flow of TNS's creativity to "the strength of his immense knowledge").

Really, if one wants to be creative, if one wants to stretch the boundaries of something, one must first be fully cognisant of these boundaries!
Last edited by bilahari on 15 Sep 2007, 16:49, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Very interesting, Bilahari, VK and Vijay!
I hope CML feels better and starts taking part in this discussion.

You speak both of music and writing. Since I am a dabbler in both genres, though not that organized in my thoughts as you as a scientist are, VK, I see how all the three of you touch upon my own experiences!
Ah, experiences is very much the basis of it all. The formal kind and of one's own creative learning of it. Then comes the performance or presentation. We all agree a performance is somewhat artificial ( staged). Yet, why do we get immersed in a concert? Why do we get excited about the music? It is not the perfect rendering of a rAgA and kriti that draws us in. Of course, we are impressed by the vidwat there.
It is the creativity which takes us to another plane--the very plane that the performer has reached. I do not know cricket. I can say it with a baseball twist: the seasoned player knows every rule in the book. He knows the boundaries of the field. He knows how to hit the right way, how to run the bases. However, while he is out there, these are not the things that occupy his being (I avoid the word mind because it is not that alone). Hitting a home run cannot be a calcualted thing. It just happens.
Even more so, in a performance. So, to me, if the foundation is solid, what springs out of it--given the fact that the artiste is highly creative and challenges himself or herself constantly, it happens. Vijay, I think we agree on this.

Bilahari,
You said it well: I am traditional with an open mind!

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

The variegated anecdotes and analogies springing up on this thread are very intriguing!

Now that we're on the process of concert presentation (right from preparation to on-stage presentation), could members of the forum who actively engage in concerts tell us a bit about how they prepare for a concert? What is it like on stage? How conscious are you of your improvisation, of swara vs. sound, what affects your performance (in terms of other performers on stage, audience, etc)? In short, what is the kutchery-presenting experience like?

I would be especially interested in hearing msakella sir's accounts about accompanying...
Last edited by bilahari on 15 Sep 2007, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

bilahari wrote:Now that we're on the process of concert presentation (right from preparation to on-stage presentation), could members of the forum who actively engage in concerts tell us a bit about how they prepare for a concert? What is it like on stage? How conscious are you of your improvisation, of swara vs. sound, what affects your performance (in terms of other performers on stage, audience, etc)?
I was thinking about this and avoided writing the same in the begining since this a dabblers ground. We needed as much babbling(to borrow arun's word) from inexperienced folks(including me). Now is the time to ask....

All the while was wondering what the active performers who might read this thread wonder about us. Did they go through the same experience ?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

shadjam wrote:vk,

I second Ninja's idea of uploading bits of music (say 20-25 secs each) and let the rasikas identify the corresponding swarams. This can be made as a quiz. We could take 20-25 such bits for each major raga and could upload these on a daily basis. What do you guys say?
So as a time-pass and show-off (err... expose ;) ) our swara knowledge skills, can we try this?

If so, one possibility is to create 2 threads.
The questions thread: Where we post (or points to) samples and associated questions.
The answers thread: Where people post/discuss/debate answers.

So that way answers are not automatically revealed unless you go to the answers thread. Also no point system, no winner. We are just looking to learn from each other by dabbling and babbling and possibly to the amusement of the knowledgeable.

Note that we do not have to create new threads for every sample. We can simple reuse these two. This means that we need to clearly number the questions thread, and always refer to it in the answrs thread.

Anybody game? If there is good interest, I can post/make-available a first sample (for which I may not know all the answers. So this is not like Drs doing it :)).

Arun

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

Arun,

Excellent Idea!! I will upload some scintillating bits when I can... We can use this as the discussion thread for the answers (so the Q & A's don't get cluttered up)..

Ninja

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I would be interested (I am being bold)
Nevertheless would learn along the way....

It will be a move from raga identification to swara identification...
Last edited by Suji Ram on 17 Sep 2007, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ok - i will try to initiate it a bit later today. Should we start with an "easy" raga (say pentatonic) or does not matter?

Arun

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Let there be two categories: Vocal and Instrumental. As we hone our skills we may gain expertise on both.

Arun you be our quiz master!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Easy ones to start with Arun. Pentatonic ragas would be a good start.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Easy raga, easy parts first.
Then easy raga complicated parts.... in that order.

CML, you can be the final judge with fourier analysis (provided the correct Sruti is used)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cml - quiz master needs to know the answers. I dont qualify. Instrumental vs Vocal - ok - but we will posting alapanas and so it may not matter. I was thinking any sample can be vocal or instrumental. I am fine either way

Let us not view it like a quiz - let us view it like a group exercise (albeit with individual effort - but we share our efforts).

For the first one, I thought I will keep it a bit generic. I will post a sample and the exercise is to
(a) identify the raga - I think this should be easy.
(b) identify where the different swaras in the raga in all stayis (assuming they figure - all need not in the sample). You can identify as many spots as you want - but if you just pick the place where it is prominent that is fine.
(c) figure out each swara for just one small section (for starters).

I really like (b) as a starting point i.e. as a baby step before we start runnning. - but that means sample could get be a bit long (say 2-3 minutes). So (c) would be for just one (very) small section. Is that ok?

Later we can move to succeeding sections. Also in subsequent exercises the sampe may be short in itself.

Also, I think we should take turns in being "exercise master".

Thoughts? (sample is ready :) )

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 18 Sep 2007, 00:58, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

So in b) do we give time points for each of the swaras?

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, that sounds fine. Make sure we get the sense of the base sruthi in the sample. If you feel it is not prominent, cut and paste some initial tamboora or held Sa notes from another part of the song. Atleast initially and if the clip is short. Thanks.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji - yes of course so that people who can concur/differ/learn :)

vk - base sruthi ok. In the first sample, there is tampura, also the alapana should make it obvious it how it ends (if you know what I mean). But yes - I think it would be best to make that obvious so that people who need it dont get completely off track.

I will start a new thread asap.

Arun

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

Sounds great. Is there a thread for Q's and one for A's already? Ah... let me check :)

raguanu
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Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by raguanu »

A Carnatic music student slowly gains swara gyānam mostly indirectly during various stages of learning. Only basic varisai exercises like Sarali, Janta and Alankarams focus directly on swarasthanas. In later lessons, due to the increased complexity, student's attention is directed towards other aspects in addition to swarasthana. As the student fumbles through varnams, kritis and swara kalpana, he/she slowly begins to internalize swarasthanams. There still might be some gaps, imperfections and deficiencies in their swara gyanam.

For rasikas who had little or no formal music training, though identifying ragas by comparing known songs etc is quite fruitful, swara knowledge is quite elusive.

Sādhakam Carnatic Ear Trainer (Android app) tries to bridge this gap by providing exercises specifically designed to improve one's swara gyanam. These are interactive exercises that students and rasikas can do on their own with the app without anybody's help.

Music teachers insist that one should practice varisai exercises (sarali, janta, alankarams) in various ragams so as to exercise various swarasthanams. Even then, varisais don't drill swarasthanas sufficiently due to their inherent limitations:
  • The patterns are predictable: Our brain can trick us by going into a mimicking mode rather than thoroughly understanding and singing each swaram carefully.

    Try this: Ask a student to sing a sarali varisai. Stop them in the middle and ask them to sing a specific swaram. For example, when singing something like pa-dha-ni-sa, stop them and ask them to sing ga or ri. Chances are they might fumble a bit before reaching correct ga or ri, though they were able to sing the same swaram during its turn in the sequence of the exercise.
  • Only one variety of a swaram is worked out each time: If you are singing alankaram in mayamalavagowla, you are only concerned about Suddha Rishabam and not Chatusruti/Shatsruti rishabams. Most students practice sarali etc only in mayamalavagowla and move on without even touching other swarasthanams. If you also practice the same exercises in Kalyani too, you bring some variety to Ri, Ma and Dha. Good. But how about the shift from one swarasthana to a different one for the same swaram?
Try this:
  • Sing one line of your favourite sarali exercise in mayamalavagowla.
  • Immediately, sing the same line in kalyani.
Were you able to switch to kalyani's swarasthanams from mayamalavagowla without difficulty?

Many students, not just beginner students, are not comfortable with this switch. They will have difficulty in changing from the mood of mayamalavagowla. Some times, they try to recollect or hum a line from a kalyani kriti or geetham, thus transforming themselves to the mood of kalyani, then they'll be able to sing anything in kalyani. This switch from one ragam to another, fundamentally switching from one set of variants of swarams to other, is not worked out sufficiently.

Varisai exercises play an important role in freeing up the vocal range and setting foundations for fingering technique in instrumentalists. Imparting swarasthana knowledge is only one of their design aspects among many. Depending solely on varisai exercises for mastering swarasthanas is an ineffective approach due to these limitations.

What would be more effective is a practice system designed with exercises solely geared towards improving swara gyanam. It is also important that the exercises should not succumb to the same limitations discussed. This means the exercises should have (a) certain level of unpredictability, (b) variations of a swaram within the same session of the exercise.

Sadhakam carnatic ear trainer app provides such a system. It plays you a short sequence where you have to identify one or more swarasthanams. For example, in one exercise it plays Sa followed by a Ri. You have to tell whether the Ri played is Suddha Rishabam (Ri1), Chatusruti Rishabam (Ri2), or Shatsruti Rishabam (Ri3). Once you answer, the app tells you whether you are right or wrong, it also shows you the correct answer. This way you start associating the swarasthanam with its sound in your mind.

What's interesting here is that you are exposed to all swarasthanas of a swaram in quick succession and repeatedly. For instance, you hear all three rishabams in one exercise several times in random order. This gives you opportunity to closely observe, compare and learn to distinguish different shades of Ri. In later exercises the same swaram is presented in different contexts- in avarohanam, in conjunction with a different swaram, in thara sthayi etc. This way you thoroughly work out various possibilities of the swaram and develop a solid understanding of the swarasthanams.

Thank you,
Ananth Pattabi
_____________________________________________
© Kuyil | Apps Crafted for Carnatic
Shruti Carnatic Tuner | Sādhakam—Carnatic Ear Trainer

SrinathK
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Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by SrinathK »

If you want swara knowledge to improve, you should

1) First be familiar with all the 12 swarasthanas and the swaras :
S, R1, R2 / G1, R3 / G2, G3, M1, M2, P, D1, D2 / N1, D3 / N2 and upper S

2) Listen to a raga, it's aro-avaro, which swaras come in it and then the swara patterns in that raga. Every few days try a new melakarta scale. Later on try to switch between scales or sing the arohanam of one scale and the avarohanam of another scale. Also sing swaras in other ragas too.

Pro Tip : Sing chromatic scales -- like S R1 R2 G3 M1 M2 P D1 N1 N2 N3 S or S R1 G1 G2 G3 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N2 N3 S covering all 12 swarasthanas (the swaras are different because the positions of R2 = G1, R3 = G2, D2 = N1 and D3 = N2. The only rule is G > R and N > D.

3) Convert swara phrases into raga phrases - learn your geetams and move up to sangathis and then raga alapana.

4) With the help of a teacher (or solo for more advanced learners), take a phrase from a geetam first, then a kriti, or raga alapana or a neraval or a sangathi, convert it back into swaras, then reconstruct it back into the phrase. Work on one raga before moving to another.

5) Expand your recognition to 3 octaves and more.

6) For music students -- play an instrument or let your teacher play it for you if they can - a veena, a violin (I won't recommend a flute although advanced listeners will have no problem with it, but beginners cannot see the pitch variation with their eyes like the other two). It will give you in depth and precise information as to how a passage goes and you can use the instrument as a feedback to improve your phrases, swarasthanas and gamakas.

If you are a beginner, I recommend a keyboard. It is good enough to help you register the 12 swarasthanas, aro-avarohana patterns and swaras. One can get a good idea with simpler passages and lay a decent foundation. A Veena or violin will help develop a finer ear for more microscopic nuances later on.

7) For very seasoned musical ears, do spend some time deciphering brighas and phrases peculiar to each musician.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam,

Since last 7 or 8 months, being very busily engaged in the propagation of my logical methods in learning our music in our Telugu Desham through WhatsApp, yesterday only, accidentally, I have gone through your post and the contents. Hence the delay in responding.

Yes, as you wrote, I have been making extensive research upon this problem, ultimately, found out a very logical way-out and implementing it to all our kids learning music in this modern, logical and very successful methods. In fact, as it defers from person to person it is not that easy to bring out all the details here. A Lec-dem may properly serve the need. However, as you have asked me, I shall try to bring out some of the details, at the least, to your notice.

While quantitative teaching of a number of compositions, merely making the student dependent and an imitative parrot, is the criteria of the age old method of teaching, now, in the modern, logical and qualitative learning (not teaching) of our music the student very independently works on his own from the very first day of the lesson and learn things like the intricacies of rhythm and notes fulfilling the criteria to sing the creative Swarakalpana and Ragalapana hardly within a couple of years only unbelievably. In this process of learning the teacher, without singing himself even for less than 5%, properly initiates the kid work for more than 95% and none of our music-teachers are ever used to this method.

While Talas, Jatis, Gatis, different kinds of Muktayis for different starting points of different compositions are the intricacies of the rhythm writing the compositions in general notation or detailed-notation or even symbolised notation and different kinds of oscillations of notes of the phrases of different Ragas are the intricacies of notes. This entire quantum of knowledge will very easily be acquired by the aspirant kid hardly within a couple of years only but not by an adult who is not that sensitive like a kid. That is why we mostly prefer to train kids only in this system. Both for Swarakalpana and Ragalapana we have specific proven methods to equip kids but not elders. Mostly we teach up to Varnas only and by the end of our training most of our kids even write the Varnas on the black-board either in general notation or detailed-notation or symbolised-notation and demonstrate singing them elaborately @ one note per second along with all the different kinds of oscillations successfully and efficiently (visit: https://youtu.be/cUgz0Ivi4jo).

Around the 7th or 8th year of age the kid will, at the first instance, be initiated to go through the 60+ Special Laya exercises and finish them learning within a month. Any human being remains always active by moving from place to place by walk and his legs are to properly be strengthened in this respect and, in the same manner, even in music, to make the required movements efficiently it is logical to train the kid in different rhythmical exercises. By doing this with the help of the Metronome he can very easily go further and further from Saralees to Gitas with the help of the keyboard within one month maximum. Later, while starting the playing and singing the 9 select Varnas @ one note per second and later @ 4-6-8 per beat with the help of the keyboard, simultaneously, he also starts the rendering of the Kalpana-jatis-1, 2 & 3 of the Kalpana-swaras-1, 2 & 3 levels in all the six popular Talas along with the swara-exercises in all the 32 Avivadi-melas furnished in my book, Akella’s easy methods. By all this he will certainly get amazing acquaintance with both the Swaras and Laya which enables him proceed with learning Kritis & Swarakalpana. For Ragalapana he follows the notated Ragalapana-segments furnished along with the respective audio-files in my book, ‘Sangita Swararaga Sudha’ and later with the 86 segmented-ragalapana-audio-files of MSG, Lalgudi and Chandrashekharan furnished in Mediafire (refer 553-AMS easy methods-2007) to notate and learn them all.

My entire research is to properly equip our kids only in a time-bound and result-oriented plan but not the elders. amsharma

Ramasubramanian M.K
Posts: 1226
Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33

Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

INTERESTING THREAD I missed earlier. My view is that while Swara Gyanam is a natural gift(I do not have it!!). practicing on the lines suggested by VK,Bilahari et al are very valuable. In my 70-plus years of listening I can confess I began to notice the. swears only just about 20 years back!!!!.While I was growing up fascinated by TNR's rapid Brigas, I used to have my late Aunt --who had impeccable swore Gyanam (she was a very good Vainika too and was literally held in awe by the likes of SSI,MSS and Kalyankrishna Bhagavathar) --translate those sangathis and that is when I learnt that "focussed hearing is more important than merely trying to "decipher the notations.

Also as one develops swara.

Gyanam one learns to appreciate the unique traverse from one swara to another by some musicians--example I used to be fascinated by GNB's use of Dha Ri in BIlahari swaram singing-- and also his use of the accented Suddha Daivatam in Panthuvarali (likewise in Saveri)
Forgive me for this "pedestrian" post-I should remind myself 'FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD"!!!!

Ramasubramanian M.K
Posts: 1226
Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33

Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by Ramasubramanian M.K »

Sorry for the spelling errors--this Auto Correct is a menace!! It turns Swara into swear!!

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by SrinathK »

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote: 22 Oct 2017, 21:37 INTERESTING THREAD I missed earlier. My view is that while Swara Gyanam is a natural gift(I do not have it!!). practicing on the lines suggested by VK,Bilahari et al are very valuable. In my 70-plus years of listening I can confess I began to notice the. swears only just about 20 years back!!!!.While I was growing up fascinated by TNR's rapid Brigas, I used to have my late Aunt --who had impeccable swore Gyanam (she was a very good Vainika too and was literally held in awe by the likes of SSI,MSS and Kalyankrishna Bhagavathar) --translate those sangathis and that is when I learnt that "focussed hearing is more important than merely trying to "decipher the notations.

Also as one develops swara.

Gyanam one learns to appreciate the unique traverse from one swara to another by some musicians--example I used to be fascinated by GNB's use of Dha Ri in BIlahari swaram singing-- and also his use of the accented Suddha Daivatam in Panthuvarali (likewise in Saveri)
Forgive me for this "pedestrian" post-I should remind myself 'FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD"!!!!
My view is that the mind is the most flexible muscle in the entire system. Using some simple exercises and knowledge of the twelve notes and a feel of the gamakas, this skill can be learned in a jiffy if developed in a structured manner (something which musicians get ample experience with, but the rasika doesn't). Especially violinists, since their job description demands them to decipher and reproduce.

Long ago, I deconstructed an alapana of GNB from these basic tenets (something also covered by AMS methods).

The alapana is here (the beginning opening phrase is lost) : https://soundcloud.com/user461654480/gn ... li-alapana

And in this post, I have the swaras
viewtopic.php?t=21378&start=50#p241940

The whole alapana is a bit of work, and there are some parts that can never quite be accurately represented in fixed swaras, but it is simply just one phrase followed by another phrase, and then another. More simpler alapana phrases like those of the mini-alapanas are are simpler and easier for beginners.

Still, despite this and slowing down many recordings, some phrases are much harder to decipher than others. Sometimes you don't get them until your long term memory somehow intuitively figures it out.

GNB demonstrated an interesting effect in that the change of gamakas of the R1 and D1 when no longer coupled to S and P cause them to go higher up, since the oscillation is now around R1 or D1 rather than between S-R1 or P-D1.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Increasing swara knowledge for rasikas and dabblers

Post by msakella »

To tell the truth, in my view as a professional-violin-accompanist, having accompanied many stalwarts on Violin for many years and also as a professional-teacher having made the learning process very strictly ‘time-bound and result-oriented’ unlike any other teacher on earth, I honestly feel that the three Violin-stalwarts, MSG, LGJ & MC, having not only created their individual finger-techniques and styles of playing the instrument but having also accompanied almost all the stalwarts hundreds of times, they have acquired more knowledge of music than any other Violinist on earth. Among them, in particular, LGJ, having accompanied GNB hundreds of times, absolutely imbibed all his knowledge than any other Violinist on earth. That is why his combination in GNB’s concerts remains unforgettable to the listeners.

In feeding this knowledge to the kids, I have cut the raga-accompaniment portion of their concerts, cut each one of them into segments, made independent folders of these three stalwarts and kept in ‘Mediafire’ (https://www.mediafire.com/folder/39c9on ... olin_Ragas)
(http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... 91#p314391) for the benefit of the aspirants. By writing the notation of all these segments and following them sincerely the aspirants could very easily acquire higher knowledge of them. amsharma

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