Swara Identification Exercises, Vocal: Post Answers Here

To teach and learn Indian classical music
cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Lovely attempt VK! Your clip is 7secs while the original is 4secs. Hence you are off on timings of your notes. I myself find that I could never keep time with solfa notes except when I use the akaara which glide easisly. Good that you retrieved your flute from the attic :)

A single note means nothing. We need at least five notes to get a phrase. If the phrase itslf gives so much trouble how can we cross the jumble of long passages :) One must learn the alphabet, then words and then graduate to sentences. We are still in kindergarten :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

In that case, I am not born yet! I would call this an 'ear teaser' quiz!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl

Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases

VK good attempt....polish the gamakas

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I meant us 'dabblers'! Perhaps you could teach us a thing or two arising from experience!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji Ram wrote:http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl

Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases

VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
Wow, nice Suji. I know mine did not quite sound like the vocal and I was not sure if it is due to swaras being wrong or the gamakas. I will learn the swaras and gamakas from you. After listening to yours, I am more convinced that it is madhuvanthi. But I am not sure if CML is messing with us or not ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

WOW!
Now we have answers 'speaking' through skilful hands. So let me also post the ANSWER in the same style.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/g46aih
You can play this MID file in windows media player (keep volume high). The notes can be shown in the 'piano roll' view if you have any MIDI software.
VK is almost right! But due to the gamakas and nokku notating is difficult (till Arun invents a 'script' for us). Also it is plain shuddha and not pratimadhyamam which makes the raga 'karnataka devgandhari'

Congrats folks! and
arasi
did you get it right away?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Both your answers prove
the hand can learn faster than the mind
and also the need for versatility with one of the instruments to learn CM (even if you want to be a vocalist !)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, thanks for that MIDI file. I do not have a MIDI software other than Windows media player which played it just fine but did not display the notes. Can you post the notes that you coded into it?

There is still an issue for me to resolve. Now, I grant you that what I played does not sound similar to the vocal but I am playing pratimadhyamam. I wonder what Suji played. It sounded like PM and sounded similar to the vocal. I am a bit familiar with Karnataka Devagandari but not a lot ( which goes by 'like Abheri but not quite so', ;) , eppadi pAdinaro being my prototype ) but I did not sense it right away. For some reason, I have latched on to the PM and can not let it go. I am pretty sure Arasi got it right on the first listen.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Yes, I did, and I thought I was wrong and later took the road to madhuvanthi!
Instinct is the best route to take, I think--may be that's all I have, even if it is nothing much to write home about!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here you go
S(GG)S(GS)S-GMP,,P
I just don't know how to indicate the gamakam on the gandharam! Some of the notes are too fast and they simply slur while singing. Also the kampita gamakam characteristic of CM cannot be properly represented in MIDI without using fast 'pitch bend' which is quite awkward. But Arun's experimental software would do it very nicely (though I have not used it!).

Though the madhyamam is a bit dicy I thought the gamakam on the gaandharam will discriminate from madhuvanti. I rather expected bimplas as an answer which would fit too!

I knew arasi will get it from gut feeling and will not opt for madhuvanti !

Where is Arun and Vikram ?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover - as I indicated I have been very busy (and still am - just a tiny window - i see I am missing out on some fun).

I did listen to the sample - the ma did sound like M1 to me - although it was not exactly at the ideal sthanam. I did not listen to all the answers, but if I am not mistaken - suji seemed to play it in M2

To my ears it seemed like
S /GS (P)M* PM/P

The second swara has a touch of pa at the beginning and slides down to ma. This is the ma indicated above.

Also as per raga, this could be suddha-dhanyasi too. I think that SGS would technically be allowed in devagandhari (and even abhEri with d1), although may be it would grs rather than gs there.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Ok , I just played what I was listening to.
I wasn't making a conscious effort in playing M2 which would sound slightly different.
But the glides make it sound like that. May be I was playing somewhere between F and F# ;)

As for the raga I couldn't really make up my mind. That's why I asked CML to post more phrases so we get the depth of the raga. For me a few stretches of phrases does help in identifying raga. One phrase can get me only to identify what swaras it has-which can be common to more that one raga ??

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.

CML, do post another couple of minutes. The ambiguity in Ma is causing unnecesary confusion. Hopefully the subsequent phrases will settle down to resolve the ambiguity.

Also, is her sruthi in 5 Kattai and the ending note 'Pa'? If those are not right, I have bigger things to worry about ;) since that is what I was going by. With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.

With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..
Very true!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

You are right on! She is at 5 kaTTai and the ending note though fading is Pa.

I will try to extract a longer stretch later simply for information (not for analyis :)

Arun
No problem! Just missing you! I agree it can be suddha danyasi too!
The Ma is indeed slightly higher and VK as well as Suji were not entirely wrong inplaying it as such. But clearly it is not madhuvanti where the notes are more flat!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML. Looking forward to the informational extensions to the piece...

Could you also please post the exact frequencies that your spectrum analysis program shows?

I do not know what kind of gamakam is allowed for madhuvanti, it just sounded like that to me on gut feel, so I will grant you that, no problem. But is her Ma allowed for karnataka devagandari? No matter how many times I listen, I can not latch on to that family of ragas ( KD, SD, Abheri or Bhimplas ). May be I am a prisoner to that first gut feel ;) Your further extractions will I am sure put me at ease and comfort with KD.

Sorry Arasi to make you doubt your gut feel ;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz

I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cml,
the last note in your midi file doesn't really go with what has been sung.
The voice is more smooth and not so much of gamakams as indicated by the swaras you wrote.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cmlover wrote:Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz

I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
now this sounds bhimpalas...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Here it is
Image
The scale measures 196Hz at about 1 sec which is the aadhara shadjam which translates exactly to 5 kaTTai.
The madhyamam which occurs at about 2.35 secs is 264 Hz which is precisely the shuddha madhyamam (calculated value is 262 Hz).

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Suji
I do not have the actual svaras of the artiste. You are right, the artiste is much smoother. But the MIDI which cannot capture gamakas has hiccoughs :)

I never learned to distinguish between abheri, karnataka devagandhari, bimplas etc., But this certainly is not consistent with madhuvanti :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML for the bits and bytes ;) Now with the extended piece, it is definitely in the SD, KD, Bimplas family, so we wil leave it at that. I will take your word for the frequency numbers and go along with suddha madhyamam. That is very close to the actual number. But the mystery remains for me as to what makes it sound a bit different in the first 2.5 seconds. But your analysis shows it is very close to the theoretical value. Arun who pegged it as SM thought it may not be quite the theoretical swarasthana, so he also heard something more than the your two data points. I am currently hanging it on the gamakam ;) I will look at the spectrum later on to tease out any other clues.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I tried now playing with pure M1 and it is fine with rest of the byte..

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

VK
As you may notice from the graph, there is nokku at that region which will interfere with the frequency and our ears are sensitive to it!
Of course only Arun is capable of a fine toothcomb analysis!
Suji
Pl post your latest effort!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/4522oc

Here' my byte.
The violin is a bit under the weather

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Very nice Suji. Sounds great.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks and congrats Suji
You have captured the essence of karnataka devagandhari (OK Bimplas :)
Douse your strings with honey @12 secs for that heart-rending melody!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

If someone wants the pitch graph (pitch vs. time) of the original sample, send me email (via forum e.g.). I am reluctant to post such analysis on a public forum without permission from artist.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
The clip I posted (purely educational) is from that of a music teacher who I do not know to get permission!

VK
Those restrictions will apply even to the TNK clip. And if we are going to be conservative in choosing materials for education I should stop right here!

Bye folks!

Sorry Folks!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

cmlover - i meant in terms of using fourier or similar analysis (and discussions on whether a person did the correct sthanam, where they deviated, how much etc.).

It is just my preference to stay away from those (i was even a bit hesitant to say "not ideal sthanam" but then the discussion was already in place). I did not mean to impose that anyone or suggest we close shop :) I do not know whether one needs permission to try to figure out swaras from a rendition.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

In my view such analysis are not relavant to CM at all. For eg a gamaka on N2 can traverse all notes between S`-- N2 and further down even D2
We can use ears/instrument as our best judge.
We might at the end be picking on artist and teacher and that must be avoided.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I agree. For the job at hand, we do not need this. But I do not think anybody intended this - some people perceived an ambiguity in a swara in the short clip.

Perhaps the lesson to be learned is to always use a long enough clip (like byte.mp3 - nice nomenclature cmlover :)! so that the raga/mela is more readily recognizable. Once that is done, most of us will subconsciously extrapolate/intrapolate as necessary.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

My answer for byte - I had a hard time representing some slides. I think i may went overboard and imagined stuff that is not really there :)

Code: Select all

s /g s (p)m pm/p ...
p n p n* n# /s' . . . 
(d)/n d p m g , r n` s 

s' => tara shadjam
n` => mandra nishadam
n* => (s')n	ni from sa
n# => /(s')(d)/n/   i.e. ni from sa down to a tinge of da 
                               and then continuously up via ni to sa
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun: Understood. I probably added to your dharma sankatam by quoting you about the swara sthanam..

CML, we can still continue without the FFT pitch analysis.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Thanks folks for clearing the air!

I think we should not name any names while discussing in order not to 'incriminate' anyone of shruti lapses. Anonymous clips will never hurt and let us not ask who the 'author' is, since we only want to learn from the exercise, know the raga but the 'name' of the artiste is immaterial. As VK suggests there is no need for FF analyses as our consensus is more than enough! I will of course share the artiste's own interpretation whenever I have it, if it is OK by you!

Thanks Arun for unravelling the byte! I guess hereafter we can use your notations as a pattern for indicating jaru and anusvara!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

s (m)g s (m)g (p)m p,,

p np,, (s')n [ (sd/)n]2 s',,

(sp/)n d p m g, r n`s

In the first bit I heard a second G (VK and CML also had it)

In the byte it is hard to explain but I represented something.... :)


Also the first G seems to come from M rather than S.
The G from S seems awkward for bhimpalas. Can someone verify?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Oct 2007, 01:38, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Suji
I understand '()' means half note, but what is '[]2' ?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

() i think is anuswara , [] may be to group one swara/strike/bow.

suji - ga from sa may not be that uncommon, when ni can from pa, the ga from sa sort of works in tandem (i.e. compare sa/ga to pa/ni => sa to pa spacing is same as ga to ni).

It is sort of like in hindola where sa/ga can be in tandem with ma/da (sa to ma spacing and ga to da (shuddha) spacing is same).

But as always, I defer to the more knowledgeable if the above is not correct.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Oct 2007, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cmlover wrote:Suji
I understand '()' means half note, but what is '[]2' ?
Repeated twice.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Arun,
I understand that S to G is common,
but the M to G in this piece seems to add flavor to the specific raga here

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ah ok. your last post said "the G from S seems awkward for bhimpalas"

But now that I listen again, it does sound like s (m)g s at the start. It does have a different feel. I dont know how common/uncommon for this raga.
Last edited by arunk on 02 Oct 2007, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
I thought we will use parentheses '()' to denote half notes and double parentheses for quarter notes etc since we cannot have double underlinings in regular notation! We will use ',' for doubling of course.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

http://www.sendspace.com/file/4b486j

I was listening to this alapana and got a little confused about the raga.

I am posting only that confused segment. Can anyone identify this raga?

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Suji
I am getting S G2 M1 D1 prominantly. It is not hindolam or kalyanavasantam for sure. Maybe you should post the full aalaapana to get a complete feel since the uttaraanga is missing!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

CML you are way off...
I will wait for others

mohan
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Post by mohan »

madhyamAvati?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

It is madyamAvati alright - anchoring on pa a lot, and hitting ni also a bit flatly i.e. not the usual one. It gives a different feel BTW who is the singer? It seems similar to the one some rasikas.org guys and I attended :). I think he may have toured your area suji.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 21 Apr 2008, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

madhyamAvati- unusual isn't it?

while the beginning of the alapana(not included in the clip) was madhyamAvati for sure, when I reached hearing this part I went uhh?? :rolleyes:
actually the rest of the alapana is also a bit unusual. The violinist however reassures us that we are with madhyamAvati.

Now I started hearing a bit brindAvana sAranga- (dikshitar's) at some places. Not sure why.
May be that's the reason it is called madhmad sArang=madhyamavati+b sAranga

Mohan,
You had a ? after madhyamAvati. what is your inference?

I think he may have toured your area suji.
:)

mohan
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Post by mohan »

yup - brindavana saranga crossed my mind at times because there was a lot of ri, ma and pa which is common to the two ragas. I put the question mark since I was confused by CML's comments. I guess he has not picked up the base sruthi and thus has heard another raga (a greha-bedham equivalent). shuddha dhanyAsi, mOhana, shuddhasAvEri, hindOLa and madhyamAvati are greha-bedham equivalents.

Getting back to the clip in question, the phrases used reminded me of those used by GNB in one his grand madhayamAvati alApanas. Who is the artist?

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

mohan wrote:yup - brindavana saranga crossed my mind at times because there was a lot of ri, ma and pa which is common to the two ragas. I put the question mark since I was confused by CML's comments. I guess he has not picked up the base sruthi and thus has heard another raga (a greha-bedham equivalent). shuddha dhanyAsi, mOhana, shuddhasAvEri, hindOLa and madhyamAvati are greha-bedham equivalents.

Getting back to the clip in question, the phrases used reminded me of those used by GNB in one his grand madhayamAvati alApanas. Who is the artist?
Thanks Mohan,
Would love to hear GNB's -any pointers
This clip was from MA concert of Abhishek Raghuram - probably the one Arun attended.

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