Swara Identification Exercises, Vocal: Post Answers Here
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Lovely attempt VK! Your clip is 7secs while the original is 4secs. Hence you are off on timings of your notes. I myself find that I could never keep time with solfa notes except when I use the akaara which glide easisly. Good that you retrieved your flute from the attic
A single note means nothing. We need at least five notes to get a phrase. If the phrase itslf gives so much trouble how can we cross the jumble of long passages One must learn the alphabet, then words and then graduate to sentences. We are still in kindergarten
A single note means nothing. We need at least five notes to get a phrase. If the phrase itslf gives so much trouble how can we cross the jumble of long passages One must learn the alphabet, then words and then graduate to sentences. We are still in kindergarten
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http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl
Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases
VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases
VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
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Wow, nice Suji. I know mine did not quite sound like the vocal and I was not sure if it is due to swaras being wrong or the gamakas. I will learn the swaras and gamakas from you. After listening to yours, I am more convinced that it is madhuvanthi. But I am not sure if CML is messing with us or notSuji Ram wrote:http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl
Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases
VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
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WOW!
Now we have answers 'speaking' through skilful hands. So let me also post the ANSWER in the same style.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/g46aih
You can play this MID file in windows media player (keep volume high). The notes can be shown in the 'piano roll' view if you have any MIDI software.
VK is almost right! But due to the gamakas and nokku notating is difficult (till Arun invents a 'script' for us). Also it is plain shuddha and not pratimadhyamam which makes the raga 'karnataka devgandhari'
Congrats folks! and
arasi
did you get it right away?
Now we have answers 'speaking' through skilful hands. So let me also post the ANSWER in the same style.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/g46aih
You can play this MID file in windows media player (keep volume high). The notes can be shown in the 'piano roll' view if you have any MIDI software.
VK is almost right! But due to the gamakas and nokku notating is difficult (till Arun invents a 'script' for us). Also it is plain shuddha and not pratimadhyamam which makes the raga 'karnataka devgandhari'
Congrats folks! and
arasi
did you get it right away?
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CML, thanks for that MIDI file. I do not have a MIDI software other than Windows media player which played it just fine but did not display the notes. Can you post the notes that you coded into it?
There is still an issue for me to resolve. Now, I grant you that what I played does not sound similar to the vocal but I am playing pratimadhyamam. I wonder what Suji played. It sounded like PM and sounded similar to the vocal. I am a bit familiar with Karnataka Devagandari but not a lot ( which goes by 'like Abheri but not quite so', , eppadi pAdinaro being my prototype ) but I did not sense it right away. For some reason, I have latched on to the PM and can not let it go. I am pretty sure Arasi got it right on the first listen.
There is still an issue for me to resolve. Now, I grant you that what I played does not sound similar to the vocal but I am playing pratimadhyamam. I wonder what Suji played. It sounded like PM and sounded similar to the vocal. I am a bit familiar with Karnataka Devagandari but not a lot ( which goes by 'like Abheri but not quite so', , eppadi pAdinaro being my prototype ) but I did not sense it right away. For some reason, I have latched on to the PM and can not let it go. I am pretty sure Arasi got it right on the first listen.
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Here you go
S(GG)S(GS)S-GMP,,P
I just don't know how to indicate the gamakam on the gandharam! Some of the notes are too fast and they simply slur while singing. Also the kampita gamakam characteristic of CM cannot be properly represented in MIDI without using fast 'pitch bend' which is quite awkward. But Arun's experimental software would do it very nicely (though I have not used it!).
Though the madhyamam is a bit dicy I thought the gamakam on the gaandharam will discriminate from madhuvanti. I rather expected bimplas as an answer which would fit too!
I knew arasi will get it from gut feeling and will not opt for madhuvanti !
Where is Arun and Vikram ?
S(GG)S(GS)S-GMP,,P
I just don't know how to indicate the gamakam on the gandharam! Some of the notes are too fast and they simply slur while singing. Also the kampita gamakam characteristic of CM cannot be properly represented in MIDI without using fast 'pitch bend' which is quite awkward. But Arun's experimental software would do it very nicely (though I have not used it!).
Though the madhyamam is a bit dicy I thought the gamakam on the gaandharam will discriminate from madhuvanti. I rather expected bimplas as an answer which would fit too!
I knew arasi will get it from gut feeling and will not opt for madhuvanti !
Where is Arun and Vikram ?
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cmlover - as I indicated I have been very busy (and still am - just a tiny window - i see I am missing out on some fun).
I did listen to the sample - the ma did sound like M1 to me - although it was not exactly at the ideal sthanam. I did not listen to all the answers, but if I am not mistaken - suji seemed to play it in M2
To my ears it seemed like
S /GS (P)M* PM/P
The second swara has a touch of pa at the beginning and slides down to ma. This is the ma indicated above.
Also as per raga, this could be suddha-dhanyasi too. I think that SGS would technically be allowed in devagandhari (and even abhEri with d1), although may be it would grs rather than gs there.
I did listen to the sample - the ma did sound like M1 to me - although it was not exactly at the ideal sthanam. I did not listen to all the answers, but if I am not mistaken - suji seemed to play it in M2
To my ears it seemed like
S /GS (P)M* PM/P
The second swara has a touch of pa at the beginning and slides down to ma. This is the ma indicated above.
Also as per raga, this could be suddha-dhanyasi too. I think that SGS would technically be allowed in devagandhari (and even abhEri with d1), although may be it would grs rather than gs there.
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Ok , I just played what I was listening to.
I wasn't making a conscious effort in playing M2 which would sound slightly different.
But the glides make it sound like that. May be I was playing somewhere between F and F#
As for the raga I couldn't really make up my mind. That's why I asked CML to post more phrases so we get the depth of the raga. For me a few stretches of phrases does help in identifying raga. One phrase can get me only to identify what swaras it has-which can be common to more that one raga ??
I wasn't making a conscious effort in playing M2 which would sound slightly different.
But the glides make it sound like that. May be I was playing somewhere between F and F#
As for the raga I couldn't really make up my mind. That's why I asked CML to post more phrases so we get the depth of the raga. For me a few stretches of phrases does help in identifying raga. One phrase can get me only to identify what swaras it has-which can be common to more that one raga ??
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OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.
CML, do post another couple of minutes. The ambiguity in Ma is causing unnecesary confusion. Hopefully the subsequent phrases will settle down to resolve the ambiguity.
Also, is her sruthi in 5 Kattai and the ending note 'Pa'? If those are not right, I have bigger things to worry about since that is what I was going by. With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..
CML, do post another couple of minutes. The ambiguity in Ma is causing unnecesary confusion. Hopefully the subsequent phrases will settle down to resolve the ambiguity.
Also, is her sruthi in 5 Kattai and the ending note 'Pa'? If those are not right, I have bigger things to worry about since that is what I was going by. With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..
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You are right on! She is at 5 kaTTai and the ending note though fading is Pa.
I will try to extract a longer stretch later simply for information (not for analyis
Arun
No problem! Just missing you! I agree it can be suddha danyasi too!
The Ma is indeed slightly higher and VK as well as Suji were not entirely wrong inplaying it as such. But clearly it is not madhuvanti where the notes are more flat!
I will try to extract a longer stretch later simply for information (not for analyis
Arun
No problem! Just missing you! I agree it can be suddha danyasi too!
The Ma is indeed slightly higher and VK as well as Suji were not entirely wrong inplaying it as such. But clearly it is not madhuvanti where the notes are more flat!
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Thanks CML. Looking forward to the informational extensions to the piece...
Could you also please post the exact frequencies that your spectrum analysis program shows?
I do not know what kind of gamakam is allowed for madhuvanti, it just sounded like that to me on gut feel, so I will grant you that, no problem. But is her Ma allowed for karnataka devagandari? No matter how many times I listen, I can not latch on to that family of ragas ( KD, SD, Abheri or Bhimplas ). May be I am a prisoner to that first gut feel Your further extractions will I am sure put me at ease and comfort with KD.
Sorry Arasi to make you doubt your gut feel
Could you also please post the exact frequencies that your spectrum analysis program shows?
I do not know what kind of gamakam is allowed for madhuvanti, it just sounded like that to me on gut feel, so I will grant you that, no problem. But is her Ma allowed for karnataka devagandari? No matter how many times I listen, I can not latch on to that family of ragas ( KD, SD, Abheri or Bhimplas ). May be I am a prisoner to that first gut feel Your further extractions will I am sure put me at ease and comfort with KD.
Sorry Arasi to make you doubt your gut feel
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Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz
I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz
I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
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now this sounds bhimpalas...cmlover wrote:Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz
I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
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Thanks CML for the bits and bytes Now with the extended piece, it is definitely in the SD, KD, Bimplas family, so we wil leave it at that. I will take your word for the frequency numbers and go along with suddha madhyamam. That is very close to the actual number. But the mystery remains for me as to what makes it sound a bit different in the first 2.5 seconds. But your analysis shows it is very close to the theoretical value. Arun who pegged it as SM thought it may not be quite the theoretical swarasthana, so he also heard something more than the your two data points. I am currently hanging it on the gamakam I will look at the spectrum later on to tease out any other clues.
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If someone wants the pitch graph (pitch vs. time) of the original sample, send me email (via forum e.g.). I am reluctant to post such analysis on a public forum without permission from artist.
Arun
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover - i meant in terms of using fourier or similar analysis (and discussions on whether a person did the correct sthanam, where they deviated, how much etc.).
It is just my preference to stay away from those (i was even a bit hesitant to say "not ideal sthanam" but then the discussion was already in place). I did not mean to impose that anyone or suggest we close shop I do not know whether one needs permission to try to figure out swaras from a rendition.
Arun
It is just my preference to stay away from those (i was even a bit hesitant to say "not ideal sthanam" but then the discussion was already in place). I did not mean to impose that anyone or suggest we close shop I do not know whether one needs permission to try to figure out swaras from a rendition.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
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I agree. For the job at hand, we do not need this. But I do not think anybody intended this - some people perceived an ambiguity in a swara in the short clip.
Perhaps the lesson to be learned is to always use a long enough clip (like byte.mp3 - nice nomenclature cmlover ! so that the raga/mela is more readily recognizable. Once that is done, most of us will subconsciously extrapolate/intrapolate as necessary.
Arun
Perhaps the lesson to be learned is to always use a long enough clip (like byte.mp3 - nice nomenclature cmlover ! so that the raga/mela is more readily recognizable. Once that is done, most of us will subconsciously extrapolate/intrapolate as necessary.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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My answer for byte - I had a hard time representing some slides. I think i may went overboard and imagined stuff that is not really there
Code: Select all
s /g s (p)m pm/p ...
p n p n* n# /s' . . .
(d)/n d p m g , r n` s
s' => tara shadjam
n` => mandra nishadam
n* => (s')n ni from sa
n# => /(s')(d)/n/ i.e. ni from sa down to a tinge of da
and then continuously up via ni to sa
Last edited by arunk on 01 Oct 2007, 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks folks for clearing the air!
I think we should not name any names while discussing in order not to 'incriminate' anyone of shruti lapses. Anonymous clips will never hurt and let us not ask who the 'author' is, since we only want to learn from the exercise, know the raga but the 'name' of the artiste is immaterial. As VK suggests there is no need for FF analyses as our consensus is more than enough! I will of course share the artiste's own interpretation whenever I have it, if it is OK by you!
Thanks Arun for unravelling the byte! I guess hereafter we can use your notations as a pattern for indicating jaru and anusvara!
I think we should not name any names while discussing in order not to 'incriminate' anyone of shruti lapses. Anonymous clips will never hurt and let us not ask who the 'author' is, since we only want to learn from the exercise, know the raga but the 'name' of the artiste is immaterial. As VK suggests there is no need for FF analyses as our consensus is more than enough! I will of course share the artiste's own interpretation whenever I have it, if it is OK by you!
Thanks Arun for unravelling the byte! I guess hereafter we can use your notations as a pattern for indicating jaru and anusvara!
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s (m)g s (m)g (p)m p,,
p np,, (s')n [ (sd/)n]2 s',,
(sp/)n d p m g, r n`s
In the first bit I heard a second G (VK and CML also had it)
In the byte it is hard to explain but I represented something....
Also the first G seems to come from M rather than S.
The G from S seems awkward for bhimpalas. Can someone verify?
p np,, (s')n [ (sd/)n]2 s',,
(sp/)n d p m g, r n`s
In the first bit I heard a second G (VK and CML also had it)
In the byte it is hard to explain but I represented something....
Also the first G seems to come from M rather than S.
The G from S seems awkward for bhimpalas. Can someone verify?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Oct 2007, 01:38, edited 1 time in total.
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() i think is anuswara , [] may be to group one swara/strike/bow.
suji - ga from sa may not be that uncommon, when ni can from pa, the ga from sa sort of works in tandem (i.e. compare sa/ga to pa/ni => sa to pa spacing is same as ga to ni).
It is sort of like in hindola where sa/ga can be in tandem with ma/da (sa to ma spacing and ga to da (shuddha) spacing is same).
But as always, I defer to the more knowledgeable if the above is not correct.
Arun
suji - ga from sa may not be that uncommon, when ni can from pa, the ga from sa sort of works in tandem (i.e. compare sa/ga to pa/ni => sa to pa spacing is same as ga to ni).
It is sort of like in hindola where sa/ga can be in tandem with ma/da (sa to ma spacing and ga to da (shuddha) spacing is same).
But as always, I defer to the more knowledgeable if the above is not correct.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Oct 2007, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.
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ah ok. your last post said "the G from S seems awkward for bhimpalas"
But now that I listen again, it does sound like s (m)g s at the start. It does have a different feel. I dont know how common/uncommon for this raga.
But now that I listen again, it does sound like s (m)g s at the start. It does have a different feel. I dont know how common/uncommon for this raga.
Last edited by arunk on 02 Oct 2007, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.
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http://www.sendspace.com/file/4b486j
I was listening to this alapana and got a little confused about the raga.
I am posting only that confused segment. Can anyone identify this raga?
I was listening to this alapana and got a little confused about the raga.
I am posting only that confused segment. Can anyone identify this raga?
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It is madyamAvati alright - anchoring on pa a lot, and hitting ni also a bit flatly i.e. not the usual one. It gives a different feel BTW who is the singer? It seems similar to the one some rasikas.org guys and I attended . I think he may have toured your area suji.
Arun
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 21 Apr 2008, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.
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madhyamAvati- unusual isn't it?
while the beginning of the alapana(not included in the clip) was madhyamAvati for sure, when I reached hearing this part I went uhh?? :rolleyes:
actually the rest of the alapana is also a bit unusual. The violinist however reassures us that we are with madhyamAvati.
Now I started hearing a bit brindAvana sAranga- (dikshitar's) at some places. Not sure why.
May be that's the reason it is called madhmad sArang=madhyamavati+b sAranga
Mohan,
You had a ? after madhyamAvati. what is your inference?
while the beginning of the alapana(not included in the clip) was madhyamAvati for sure, when I reached hearing this part I went uhh?? :rolleyes:
actually the rest of the alapana is also a bit unusual. The violinist however reassures us that we are with madhyamAvati.
Now I started hearing a bit brindAvana sAranga- (dikshitar's) at some places. Not sure why.
May be that's the reason it is called madhmad sArang=madhyamavati+b sAranga
Mohan,
You had a ? after madhyamAvati. what is your inference?
I think he may have toured your area suji.
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yup - brindavana saranga crossed my mind at times because there was a lot of ri, ma and pa which is common to the two ragas. I put the question mark since I was confused by CML's comments. I guess he has not picked up the base sruthi and thus has heard another raga (a greha-bedham equivalent). shuddha dhanyAsi, mOhana, shuddhasAvEri, hindOLa and madhyamAvati are greha-bedham equivalents.
Getting back to the clip in question, the phrases used reminded me of those used by GNB in one his grand madhayamAvati alApanas. Who is the artist?
Getting back to the clip in question, the phrases used reminded me of those used by GNB in one his grand madhayamAvati alApanas. Who is the artist?
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Thanks Mohan,mohan wrote:yup - brindavana saranga crossed my mind at times because there was a lot of ri, ma and pa which is common to the two ragas. I put the question mark since I was confused by CML's comments. I guess he has not picked up the base sruthi and thus has heard another raga (a greha-bedham equivalent). shuddha dhanyAsi, mOhana, shuddhasAvEri, hindOLa and madhyamAvati are greha-bedham equivalents.
Getting back to the clip in question, the phrases used reminded me of those used by GNB in one his grand madhayamAvati alApanas. Who is the artist?
Would love to hear GNB's -any pointers
This clip was from MA concert of Abhishek Raghuram - probably the one Arun attended.