Swara Identification Exercises, Vocal: Post Answers Here

To teach and learn Indian classical music
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arunk
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#151

Post by arunk » 28 Sep 2007, 07:04

cmlover wrote:TMK is presenting only secondhand information when he is interpreting SSP...
:rolleyes: Let us watch our words shall we ? A couple of samples all of a sudden we are claiming we are doing a better objective analysis than TMK?

I am sorry - I am out of this discussion as of now.
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cmlover
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#152

Post by cmlover » 28 Sep 2007, 07:33

Thanks Arun! No harm meant. I was only poiting out that he has no first hand experience of litening to the way tODi was sung in days of yore. Of course he has done a good research and has brought to our attention the differences that existed in raga bhava in olden times compared to the evolutions that have taken place subsequently.

The tODi of the nAdasvara vidvaans of old were quite different and highly gamakam prone. It is quite possible that the vocalists started imitating them. Listen to GNB's majestic 'thaamatham En' or 'aananda nateshA' which is practically the tOdi of today....

I am awaiting comments on the second clip. Of course I will give time for you to 'chew the cud'.
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cmlover
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#153

Post by cmlover » 28 Sep 2007, 07:38

Arun

I trust you are not upset!
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cmlover
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#154

Post by cmlover » 28 Sep 2007, 07:49

Arun
You are quite right! Todi, shadjama pancama varjita prayOgam (not uncommon) with shruti bhedam on madhyama will prcisely be Hindolam! Thanks for alerting...
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vasanthakokilam
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#155

Post by vasanthakokilam » 28 Sep 2007, 08:04

I am awaiting comments on the second clip. Of course I will give time for you to 'chew the cud'.
I guess this shows that one can sing fast and still bring out the thodi gamakams.
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arasi
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#156

Post by arasi » 28 Sep 2007, 08:05

CML,
So, you put Arun in orbit:)
Now, he can get upset with me if he wants to!

Not really, Arun. I am always impressed by your zeal, don't forget...:)
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arunk
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#157

Post by arunk » 28 Sep 2007, 08:56

no problem. I just did not like the way you worded and even if not seriously aimed - to trivialize TMK and his effort. And maybe others dont feel this way - but I for one am always aware that we are *just* dabblers. At the end of any day, I know like 1% of what they know :)

BTW, I didnt think a graha-bedham was necessary for tODi to sound like hindolam. Same sruthi/graha but keep to g m d n s' (i.e. no ri and no pa). I remember some other discussion on this.

I will look at the sample later. A better sample would be a big 2-kaLai krithi.

Arun
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cmlover
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#158

Post by cmlover » 28 Sep 2007, 09:46

I agree but sa-pa varjitam is common in todi in comparison with ri-pa varjitam. In fact GNB has used the Hindolam grahabhedam using the sa-pa varjitam which was discussed at sangitam some time back.

arasi
it is difficult to argue with Arun; he will never giveup easily!
But it is so easy to get him upset :)

VK
you have very good hearing! But do you think it is 'standrd' tODi that we are used to ?
(clue for others with not so sharp hearing like VK :)
Just slow it down (?200%) using audigy and listen !
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venkatpv
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#159

Post by venkatpv » 28 Sep 2007, 18:15

about SSP's Thodi being different from today's Thodi... there are a couple of points.

First, it is well known that MD composed certain kritis (like Kamalamba Samrakshatu) in the "older" version of the raga (Ananda Bhairavi) and other kritis (like Manasa Guruguha perhaps) in the more prevalent version of the same raga. Maybe he was following the same template for Thodi here? So we have Shri Subramanyo and Dakshayani... and maybe even Shri Krishnam (which is of doubtful authenticity) composed in the more prevalent Thodi. What complicates matters is that, IIRC, Kamalambike is the only kriti in Thodi that is notated in the SSP. so there's no "proof" of him composing in two different versions :( interestingly, rupamu joochi as notated in the SSP is also in that older style of thodi! and Subbarama Dikshitar's ragamalika varnam (Garavamu), sung so beautifully by Prof SRJ, has a thodi passage, which is the thodi of today. i am not sure how it is notated, though...

Second, when i listened to the two versions of Kamalambike sung by TMK, i could see why Thodi has become what it has become... you expect gamakams in certain places, and when they dont come it feels un-Thodi-like... its almost like an invisible thread running between the two Thodi's... i can feel it, but sadly cant explain it.
Last edited by venkatpv on 28 Sep 2007, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#160

Post by cmlover » 28 Sep 2007, 20:14

Here is the answer to sample 4
MPRS',S',S'NR'S'NS'D, D,D,
NDN,,NS'R'M'R'S'P
PDDNP,P
MP MP PMGM,G
GMP,P PNPP PDDN,P
You can verify from the artiste's own words from
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6r3m5o
I agree it is not easy to decipher aTHANA since it does not have a well defined aro/avaro !

Congratulations to Vikram for the 100% accuracy. It will be quite nice if he can explain how he unravelled it.

Thanks venkatpv for that clarification on the tODi issue. Why should MD have two different styles of the same raga? He could have given it a slightly different name! In my view SS should have been the gold standard. However his svarajati which is almost like a lakshnana gItam is very much like modern tODi as rendered by SSI who must have learned it when he was quite young!
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venkatpv
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#161

Post by venkatpv » 28 Sep 2007, 21:36

"Why should MD have two different styles of the same raga?"

the same reason why he composed in Mecha Bauli, Gowri, Navaratna Vilasa, Devaranji etc... i.e. to preserve the old ragas that were dying. although Thodi and A.Bhairavi were not dying, they were assuming a different colour.
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vasanthakokilam
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#162

Post by vasanthakokilam » 28 Sep 2007, 21:41

Thanks CML. I will have to revisit Atana once I have more time. I guess the good thing with Athana which should make it easier than others is, once you get a template like this, other songs should be a bit easier to decode since it has a small set of well defined and identifiable prayogas.
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Suji Ram
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#163

Post by Suji Ram » 28 Sep 2007, 23:36

I am amazed VKS has got 100% accuracy-every bit of swara!! You sure are not a dabbler.

I can now fix mine to correct identification of the "swaras"
However I am not far in my interpretation as I perceive the sounds on the instrument -what's in a name (of the swara)? :)

Learnt quite a bit of prayogas in aThaNa

Cml, you made a mistake in the second line -it should be NDN instead of NSN
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sramaswamy
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#164

Post by sramaswamy » 28 Sep 2007, 23:40

arunk wrote:BTW, I didnt think a graha-bedham was necessary for tODi to sound like hindolam. Same sruthi/graha but keep to g m d n s' (i.e. no ri and no pa). I remember some other discussion on this.
Arun
Maybe this discussion?

http://punar-nava.blogspot.com/2007/02/ ... -todi.html
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cmlover
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#165

Post by cmlover » 28 Sep 2007, 23:53

Thanks Suji! I have corrected my typo...
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cmlover
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#166

Post by cmlover » 29 Sep 2007, 00:05

Thanks sramasvamy for that informative refeerence!
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arunk
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#167

Post by arunk » 29 Sep 2007, 00:11

sramaswamy: Thanks - I remember reading that blog and may be it was that.
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vasanthakokilam
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#168

Post by vasanthakokilam » 29 Sep 2007, 00:42

Thanks for the blog reference. Quite useful and well done with illustrations.
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cmlover
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#169

Post by cmlover » 29 Sep 2007, 01:19

Arun
That voletti Hindolam excursion (malkauns?) quite exciting. Should we look at it more critically? You can choose a right (short please!) passage for our learning experiment!
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vasanthakokilam
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#170

Post by vasanthakokilam » 29 Sep 2007, 05:23

Before we move on to other exercises, can Arun or/and Suji do one thing for the Abhogi piece? Pick out the small prayogas in that clip that brings out the raga swaroopam of Abhogi and provide the timeline for it in the clip. The information is there in the consensus decoded form, but it will be good to have it mapped to the characteristic prayogas of Abhogi. The rest of the swarams will be the bridge notes that take it from one characteristic prayogas to the other.

If we want to do this for all the ragas we discuss, at the end of the exercise, we can crate a table like this. ( made up data just for filling the table )

Code: Select all

"Prayoga Sequence"     "time of occurrence     "esnips embedded url if available"
                      in the exercise clip"     

   MA PA DA SA            2:15 to 2:20          If available, one can click on it and hear just the prayoga
                                                like the Thodi blog or Arun's blog
                                                If it is too short, then it can be a bit longer but then the time of
                                                occurrence in the shortened esnips clip can be specified.
   SA GA RI GA            1:22 to 1:23

   etc.
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cmlover
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#171

Post by cmlover » 29 Sep 2007, 06:00

Excellent suggestion VK!
perhaps even the same can be done for the mohanam instrumental as well!
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arunk
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#172

Post by arunk » 29 Sep 2007, 20:35

cmlover, vk: Give me a day or two to look at both (abhOgi and voleti's tODi). This weekend is a very hectic one.

But this does take time and effort though. For the ragas in my blog, I had to sort of listen to many songs and renditions in that raga (as i dont know all the prayogas beforehand).

Will esnips url work here?

Arun

PS: You know it kind of strokes my ego to see comments on the blog ;) . But seriously - some feedback good or bad always helps - i do see hits from rasikas.org but very very few comments
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vasanthakokilam
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#173

Post by vasanthakokilam » 30 Sep 2007, 02:11

Arun, I have not been to your blog in a while but i will go there and will sure add a comment if I have something to say at that time. That will be my pleasure.

With respect to this table, it does not have to be exhaustive and complete, initially you can just work with the Abhogi clip we studied. Since you already decoded, you can arrange it the reverse way: Prayogas to the timeline. I am not sure if esnips will work here but worth a try. But I found the esnips links in that thodi blog to be very unreliable and at best very slow. But it was OK at your blog.

CML, the short clip you posted, it sounds like Madhuvanthi. I will try to match it with swaras later on. That is the first thing that came to my mind so I will go with that. But given the short clip, let me put down another raga which I have felt have closeness to Madhuvanti: Sumanesa Ranjani. And by another stretch to samudrapriya and madhukauns..( with which I do not have much acquaintance )
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cmlover
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#174

Post by cmlover » 30 Sep 2007, 02:44

VK
Do you smell pratimadhyamam in the neighbourhood :)
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vasanthakokilam
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#175

Post by vasanthakokilam » 30 Sep 2007, 03:06

yes, of course ;) Does not mean it is right. May be I am latching on to the wrong sa. Anyway, the swaras I can come up for this clip is : SA GA2 SA GA2 MA2 PA.... And this is how it come out for me: http://www.sendspace.com/file/8d089h (It is quite frustrating that small clips are also hard to replicate correctly.)
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