Swara Identification Exercises, Vocal: Post Answers Here

To teach and learn Indian classical music
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cmlover
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#176

Post by cmlover » 30 Sep 2007, 06:36

Lovely attempt VK! Your clip is 7secs while the original is 4secs. Hence you are off on timings of your notes. I myself find that I could never keep time with solfa notes except when I use the akaara which glide easisly. Good that you retrieved your flute from the attic :)

A single note means nothing. We need at least five notes to get a phrase. If the phrase itslf gives so much trouble how can we cross the jumble of long passages :) One must learn the alphabet, then words and then graduate to sentences. We are still in kindergarten :)
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arasi
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#177

Post by arasi » 30 Sep 2007, 07:39

In that case, I am not born yet! I would call this an 'ear teaser' quiz!
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Suji Ram
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#178

Post by Suji Ram » 30 Sep 2007, 07:50

http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl

Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases

VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
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cmlover
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#179

Post by cmlover » 30 Sep 2007, 07:54

I meant us 'dabblers'! Perhaps you could teach us a thing or two arising from experience!
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vasanthakokilam
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#180

Post by vasanthakokilam » 30 Sep 2007, 08:45

Suji Ram wrote:http://www.sendspace.com/file/se25sl

Here's my answer.
CML , do post more phrases

VK good attempt....polish the gamakas
Wow, nice Suji. I know mine did not quite sound like the vocal and I was not sure if it is due to swaras being wrong or the gamakas. I will learn the swaras and gamakas from you. After listening to yours, I am more convinced that it is madhuvanthi. But I am not sure if CML is messing with us or not ;)
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cmlover
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#181

Post by cmlover » 30 Sep 2007, 20:50

WOW!
Now we have answers 'speaking' through skilful hands. So let me also post the ANSWER in the same style.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/g46aih
You can play this MID file in windows media player (keep volume high). The notes can be shown in the 'piano roll' view if you have any MIDI software.
VK is almost right! But due to the gamakas and nokku notating is difficult (till Arun invents a 'script' for us). Also it is plain shuddha and not pratimadhyamam which makes the raga 'karnataka devgandhari'

Congrats folks! and
arasi
did you get it right away?
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cmlover
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#182

Post by cmlover » 30 Sep 2007, 20:56

Both your answers prove
the hand can learn faster than the mind
and also the need for versatility with one of the instruments to learn CM (even if you want to be a vocalist !)
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vasanthakokilam
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#183

Post by vasanthakokilam » 30 Sep 2007, 21:15

CML, thanks for that MIDI file. I do not have a MIDI software other than Windows media player which played it just fine but did not display the notes. Can you post the notes that you coded into it?

There is still an issue for me to resolve. Now, I grant you that what I played does not sound similar to the vocal but I am playing pratimadhyamam. I wonder what Suji played. It sounded like PM and sounded similar to the vocal. I am a bit familiar with Karnataka Devagandari but not a lot ( which goes by 'like Abheri but not quite so', ;) , eppadi pAdinaro being my prototype ) but I did not sense it right away. For some reason, I have latched on to the PM and can not let it go. I am pretty sure Arasi got it right on the first listen.
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arasi
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#184

Post by arasi » 30 Sep 2007, 21:16

Yes, I did, and I thought I was wrong and later took the road to madhuvanthi!
Instinct is the best route to take, I think--may be that's all I have, even if it is nothing much to write home about!
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cmlover
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#185

Post by cmlover » 30 Sep 2007, 23:25

Here you go
S(GG)S(GS)S-GMP,,P
I just don't know how to indicate the gamakam on the gandharam! Some of the notes are too fast and they simply slur while singing. Also the kampita gamakam characteristic of CM cannot be properly represented in MIDI without using fast 'pitch bend' which is quite awkward. But Arun's experimental software would do it very nicely (though I have not used it!).

Though the madhyamam is a bit dicy I thought the gamakam on the gaandharam will discriminate from madhuvanti. I rather expected bimplas as an answer which would fit too!

I knew arasi will get it from gut feeling and will not opt for madhuvanti !

Where is Arun and Vikram ?
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arunk
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#186

Post by arunk » 01 Oct 2007, 01:10

cmlover - as I indicated I have been very busy (and still am - just a tiny window - i see I am missing out on some fun).

I did listen to the sample - the ma did sound like M1 to me - although it was not exactly at the ideal sthanam. I did not listen to all the answers, but if I am not mistaken - suji seemed to play it in M2

To my ears it seemed like
S /GS (P)M* PM/P

The second swara has a touch of pa at the beginning and slides down to ma. This is the ma indicated above.

Also as per raga, this could be suddha-dhanyasi too. I think that SGS would technically be allowed in devagandhari (and even abhEri with d1), although may be it would grs rather than gs there.
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Suji Ram
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#187

Post by Suji Ram » 01 Oct 2007, 01:24

Ok , I just played what I was listening to.
I wasn't making a conscious effort in playing M2 which would sound slightly different.
But the glides make it sound like that. May be I was playing somewhere between F and F# ;)

As for the raga I couldn't really make up my mind. That's why I asked CML to post more phrases so we get the depth of the raga. For me a few stretches of phrases does help in identifying raga. One phrase can get me only to identify what swaras it has-which can be common to more that one raga ??
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vasanthakokilam
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#188

Post by vasanthakokilam » 01 Oct 2007, 01:35

OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.

CML, do post another couple of minutes. The ambiguity in Ma is causing unnecesary confusion. Hopefully the subsequent phrases will settle down to resolve the ambiguity.

Also, is her sruthi in 5 Kattai and the ending note 'Pa'? If those are not right, I have bigger things to worry about ;) since that is what I was going by. With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..
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Suji Ram
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#189

Post by Suji Ram » 01 Oct 2007, 01:40

vasanthakokilam wrote:OK, I feel a bit better that it was not just me who did not hear a clean M1.

With those assumptions, I tried to play M1 and it does not sound similar to what she is singing..
Very true!
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cmlover
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#190

Post by cmlover » 01 Oct 2007, 01:56

You are right on! She is at 5 kaTTai and the ending note though fading is Pa.

I will try to extract a longer stretch later simply for information (not for analyis :)

Arun
No problem! Just missing you! I agree it can be suddha danyasi too!
The Ma is indeed slightly higher and VK as well as Suji were not entirely wrong inplaying it as such. But clearly it is not madhuvanti where the notes are more flat!
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vasanthakokilam
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#191

Post by vasanthakokilam » 01 Oct 2007, 02:11

Thanks CML. Looking forward to the informational extensions to the piece...

Could you also please post the exact frequencies that your spectrum analysis program shows?

I do not know what kind of gamakam is allowed for madhuvanti, it just sounded like that to me on gut feel, so I will grant you that, no problem. But is her Ma allowed for karnataka devagandari? No matter how many times I listen, I can not latch on to that family of ragas ( KD, SD, Abheri or Bhimplas ). May be I am a prisoner to that first gut feel ;) Your further extractions will I am sure put me at ease and comfort with KD.

Sorry Arasi to make you doubt your gut feel ;)
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cmlover
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#192

Post by cmlover » 01 Oct 2007, 05:24

Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz

I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
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Suji Ram
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#193

Post by Suji Ram » 01 Oct 2007, 05:31

cml,
the last note in your midi file doesn't really go with what has been sung.
The voice is more smooth and not so much of gamakams as indicated by the swaras you wrote.
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Suji Ram
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#194

Post by Suji Ram » 01 Oct 2007, 05:34

cmlover wrote:Here is a longer stretch of the piece which may help. I do not have the complete aalaap since these are teaching pieces.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wrmamz

I will try to post my spectrum analysis graphically.
now this sounds bhimpalas...
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cmlover
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#195

Post by cmlover » 01 Oct 2007, 05:41

Here it is
Image
The scale measures 196Hz at about 1 sec which is the aadhara shadjam which translates exactly to 5 kaTTai.
The madhyamam which occurs at about 2.35 secs is 264 Hz which is precisely the shuddha madhyamam (calculated value is 262 Hz).
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cmlover
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#196

Post by cmlover » 01 Oct 2007, 05:45

Suji
I do not have the actual svaras of the artiste. You are right, the artiste is much smoother. But the MIDI which cannot capture gamakas has hiccoughs :)

I never learned to distinguish between abheri, karnataka devagandhari, bimplas etc., But this certainly is not consistent with madhuvanti :)
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vasanthakokilam
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#197

Post by vasanthakokilam » 01 Oct 2007, 07:04

Thanks CML for the bits and bytes ;) Now with the extended piece, it is definitely in the SD, KD, Bimplas family, so we wil leave it at that. I will take your word for the frequency numbers and go along with suddha madhyamam. That is very close to the actual number. But the mystery remains for me as to what makes it sound a bit different in the first 2.5 seconds. But your analysis shows it is very close to the theoretical value. Arun who pegged it as SM thought it may not be quite the theoretical swarasthana, so he also heard something more than the your two data points. I am currently hanging it on the gamakam ;) I will look at the spectrum later on to tease out any other clues.
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Suji Ram
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#198

Post by Suji Ram » 01 Oct 2007, 07:29

I tried now playing with pure M1 and it is fine with rest of the byte..
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cmlover
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#199

Post by cmlover » 01 Oct 2007, 07:32

VK
As you may notice from the graph, there is nokku at that region which will interfere with the frequency and our ears are sensitive to it!
Of course only Arun is capable of a fine toothcomb analysis!
Suji
Pl post your latest effort!
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Suji Ram
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#200

Post by Suji Ram » 01 Oct 2007, 11:30

http://www.sendspace.com/file/4522oc

Here' my byte.
The violin is a bit under the weather
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