Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

To teach and learn Indian classical music
vasanthakokilam
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#551

Post by vasanthakokilam » 03 Nov 2007, 23:09

cmlover wrote:Here you go
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn
:cool: Very nice CML. Sounds quite nice and is very pleasant. That transition to Charana fast paced swaras provide for the variety and is quite catchy. I will listen to it some more.

Your constructions are great illustrations of what I wrote before. The same characteristic phrase cast in various rhythmic combinations sound very different and seems like a fundademental construction tool/technique used by all the composers. ( obvious observation probably ). Your sequences, as I was playing along with it, gave me a few more ideas for constructing melody lines for this raga.
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arunk
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#552

Post by arunk » 04 Nov 2007, 00:03

cmlover wrote:So let me summarize the rule.
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro. You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend ( not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!
Is this not discrimination?
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro.
Yes. But in practice, the neighbouring note in arohana would be most common.

You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
FROM the same above swara occuring only in arohana? No - you cannot descend period.

On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!
Yes. This is just similar to a note occuring only in arohana - the only difference is here you descend and there you ascend. Also, similar to above, from such a swara you cannot ascend period.

A simpler way to look at this (consider non-vakra scales only for now).
From any swara, you can ascend if it is in the arohana.
From any swara, you can descend if it is in the avarohana.

In other words, focus on the transition *from* the swara, NOT the transition *to* the swara.

Consider s-g-r-s for in sAvEri. There are three transitions and you are
1. ascending FROM sa
2. descending FROM ga.
3. desdending FROM ri.

So you ask
1. Ascending from sa. Is sa in arohana ;) ?
2. Descending from ga. Is ga in avarohana?
3. Descending from ri. Is ri in avarohana?

The answer is true for all three and so allowed.

Consider the same s-g-r-s for our raga s-r-m-n-S/S-d-p-g-s.
1. Ascending from sa: Is sa in arohana? Of course yes
2. Descending from ga: Is ga in avarohana? Yes.
3. Desending from ri. Is ri in avarohana? NO.

So s-g-r-s is disallowed for our raga.

But s-g-s would be allowed although probably "not common" (as swara skipping as is done in s-g while allowed need to be used judiciously in cm).

Consider these:
Is d-n-d allowed or not in kambhOji/bilahari? Why?
Is d-n-R-s allowed or not in kAmbhOji/bilahari? Why?
Is S-n-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri (s-g-m-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s)? Why?
Is n-d-p-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri? Why?

If you apply the above procedure, and you will arrive at the right answer for each case.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#553

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 00:31

CML,
That is indeed great sounding piece.
After VK's initial composition, listening to this was like sitting in a concert and exclaming- ah! I recognize!- that's vasantakokiladhwani!!!!

I am still working on mine.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Nov 2007, 00:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#554

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 00:36

arun,
nice explanation- but taking time to digest. So this rule should also apply to vasantakokiladhwani too.
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arunk
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#555

Post by arunk » 04 Nov 2007, 00:41

no suji - vasantakokiladhwani is vakra. But it should apply for the "non-vakra" portions.

I have not given enough thought but vakra does determine order. In SrIraga e.g. m-g is disallowed. It must be m-r-g (and r following it - why? because must descend from ga). But by above procedure, ma is in avarohana so both m-g and m-r should be allowed. The difference is the vakra avarohana which says m-r-g-r-s. Thus above procedure should not be used for vakra ragas in particular for the portion that is the vakra part.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#556

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 00:46

But it should apply for the "non-vakra" portions.
yes, got it!
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arasi
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#557

Post by arasi » 04 Nov 2007, 01:36

CML,
Great job. Vasantakokiladhvani is gaining stature. What I like most about it that it lives up to its name. It IS an ode to the bird, in the manner of garudhvani. I do not mean in sounds alone but going along with the personality of the bird too. Spotting a garuDA is a dramatic occurence and you mostly see the bird soaring high in the skies. Though I haven't heard the bird, the rAgA seems to suit the bird's sound--distant and urgent (in the manner of getting swiftly to save gajEndrA!).
As for VKdhvani, the best part of it for me is the sweet notes which you seem to hear from close quarters. Though the cuckoo sings only in spring, you hear him (mrs or not!) nearby, outside the window on a low branch of the mango tree. The technical stuff from you pros is mind boggling. It was the charm of the melody that captured my imagination.
Interesting, VK mentioned the inspiration point as listening to Mali's piece and it sounds just as though Mali ventured into a village, settled on a haystack and blew away on his flute to the delight of the village children...
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cmlover
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#558

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 03:32

Thanks Arun
That was a mega explanation but done clearly. I was thinking only in terms of nonvakra ragas only. Of course vakra ragas have to display the vakraness and hence are complicated. Is there any manual where these rules are explained (with the exceptions for specific ragas ?). If not you should write one !

Suji/Arasi

I enjoyed playing with VKdhvani. I noticed that the sharp jumpover to Ri from pa ia almost like a 'vikkal' (hiccough) which gives it a special colour and we may even abbreviate and call it VKKLdhvani :) In addition to hallo'een it will come handy for the horror movies! I am waiting to see what Suji comes up with. By the by your waxing poetical is bringing pleasant memories of sighting Garuda during childhood!
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cmlover
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#559

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 03:38

VK
Work on the melody lines for VKKLdhvani. Have some water (not Vodka :) handy!
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vasanthakokilam
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#560

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Nov 2007, 05:01

Consider these:
1) Is d-n-d allowed or not in kambhOji/bilahari? Why?
2) Is d-n-R-s allowed or not in kAmbhOji/bilahari? Why?
3) Is S-n-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri (s-g-m-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s)? Why?
4) Is n-d-p-d-n allowed or not in bahudAri? Why?
Let me work these for practise.

Kambhoji

(Using old notation in aro/ava for clarity when there is no confusion.)

Aa: S R2 G3 M1 P D2 S
Av: S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Bilahari:
Aa: S R2 G3 P D2 S
Av: S N3 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Bahudari:

Aa:S G M D N S
Av: S N P M G S


1) d-n-d
Kambhoji. d-n, d is in Aro., n-d, n is in Ava. So allowed.
Bilahari, d-n, d in Aro, n-d, n is in Ava, So allowed

2) d-n-R-S

Kambhoji. d-n is ok, n-R, n is not in Aro so not allowed
Bilahari. d-n is ok. n-R, n is not in Aro, so not allowed

3) S-n-d-n
bahudari: S-n is ok, n-d is OK since n is in ava, d-n is ok since d is in Aro - allowed

4) n-d-p-d-n
bahudari: n-d is ok since n is in Ava, d-p is not Ok since d is not in the Ava - not allowed

Is this correct? Nice workable algorithm..
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Suji Ram
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#561

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 05:30

Here's my first composition- half way pUrvanga

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kczlgn

VarNam- vasantakOkiladhwaNi
Adi tAlam

Pallavi

G , R~ , |N`~ , S , |R N` S G | R~, N` S|

S S G R |N` S S P`|G` P` P` G` | P` P` R S|

G G P P |G R N` S|G P G G |R N` S , |

P G R N` |S , G P|G G P G |P-R’ S’ , |


Anupallavi

G , G , |P G G R| N` S S G|S G G P|

G P P G |P R’ S’ S’ |G’ R’ N~ |S’ , , , |

Note I have repeated each line twice-

Does this follow the rule VK?
I have introduced nyasa dhIrga etc.
Maybe it sounds different.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 06 Nov 2007, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#562

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 05:52

VK
Wake up!
Are you talking about bilahari or bahudari ?

Here is a VKKLdhvani bit which some of you may recognize, but certainly Arasi will :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t0oadd

Good work Suji ! will liisten first...
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cmlover
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#563

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 05:59

Image
Suji

Just Fantastic! It is a masterpice....
You have elevated VKdhvani to concert level....
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vasanthakokilam
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#564

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Nov 2007, 06:03

Suji, great job. Very cool indeed :cool: nyasa dhIrga and gamakams add to the nice effect. Wow, now you have expanded the scope of this by bringing out the other facets. It also has a bit of HM sound to it.

You also should try CML's composition on the violin.

I agree with what CML said.
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vasanthakokilam
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#565

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Nov 2007, 06:10

cmlover wrote:VK
Wake up!
Are you talking about bilahari or bahudari ?
I do not know. Where did I mess up? I thought Arun asked about both Bilahari and Bahudari.
cmlover wrote:Here is a VKKLdhvani bit which some of you may recognize, but certainly Arasi will :)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/t0oadd
:D I hear the VKKL but I do not recognize the song. ( started to sound like the western pop song named 'popcorn' ) Are you still on the Haloween theme? ;)
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cmlover
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#566

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 06:48

VK
You added the bahudari svaram and I did not see Arun including it! According to SRJ Bahudari is (28th mela)
Aro S G M P D N S'
Avaro S' N D N P M G S

Hence ndpdn is ok! (but the vakra confuses me!)

I will wait for Arasi to listen before the VKKL is revealed. She belongs to the generation for whom 'husband is the visible God' :)
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vasanthakokilam
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#567

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Nov 2007, 07:03

CML, I just copied what Arun provided since you missed that. The SRJ def for Bahudari is different from what Arun provided.
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arasi
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#568

Post by arasi » 04 Nov 2007, 07:35

VK,
The film is kaNavanE kaN kaNDa deivam. The song is 'unnaik kaN tEDudE, un ezhil kANavE, uLam nADudE!
uRangAmalE en manam vADudE, and each phrase is punctuated with a hiccup :)
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arunk
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#569

Post by arunk » 04 Nov 2007, 07:43

sorry - bahudari turned out to be a wrong example. I wanted to give a raga with a swara present only in arohana - and used a "simplified structure" which is incomplete and thus misleading

How about nATTai - s r3 g3 m1 p d3 n3 S/S n3 p m1 r3 s.

s-r-g-m-g-r-s
s-r-g-m-r-g-s
s-r-g-m-r-s

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 07:45, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#570

Post by arunk » 04 Nov 2007, 08:16

although i dont understand what extra info is conveyed by S-n-d-n-p-m-g-s avarohana version.

S-n-d-n is allowable just by the simpler version. I dont think this vakra allows d-p. It only allows d-n-p as conveyed by the vakra. But again, this is conveyed by the simpler version too.

S-n-d-n-p does occur as a phrase few times in the version of brOvabhAramA that I learnt and so perhaps s-n-d-n-p is to highlight a vishesha prayoga (i dont know that it is). The simpler s-g-m-p-d-n-S/S-n-p-m-g-s allows for it.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 04 Nov 2007, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#571

Post by arunk » 04 Nov 2007, 08:20

vk - you got those right
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Suji Ram
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#572

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 09:54

cmlover wrote:http://mazeguy.net/expressive/salute.gif
Suji

Just Fantastic! It is a masterpice....
You have elevated VKdhvani to concert level....
Thanks CML.
I like that icon :)
Can you please reproduce my varnam in MIDI. I would like to hear how it sounds with flute in comparison to your composition. Note the slurs between swaras as you hear. I could not notate those.

VK,
I'm glad you liked it. Thanks.
The HM like feel I think comes from swaras with descending slides
Now tell me if GRn~S is acceptable. Since it is allowed in mandra stayi I think it should be fine in tara stayi too.
I'm working on rest of it but I need a feed back to proceed. Composing a varnam (If I can call this one) is tough. One can soon exhaust all the swara combination. I am excited about this new raga.
The funny thing is I have to learn by heart my own creation before I play it!!.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 04 Nov 2007, 10:06, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#573

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Nov 2007, 10:22

>Now tell me if GRn~S is acceptable. Since it is allowed in mandra stayi I think it should be fine in tara stayi too.

Yes, definitely.

As you construct the rest of the varnam, see if you can work in some variations on these combinations ( you may already have some of this )

p' r s g r n' s
p' r s g n' s
p' r s g...r n s g,,

s p',,, r s g,,,

s g p g p g r n' s g,,

s g p g p g r n' s p' r s g

etc.
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Suji Ram
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#574

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 10:28

Thanks VK.
The rest of the varnam is flowing. I was intending to use GP GP next.
I was working on a gradual flow from mandra based beginning to madya to tara climax.
It is only now I realise patterns in other varnams. What a way to learn!
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cmlover
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#575

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 20:13

Arun
All the three phrases are kosher in NaaTTai according to your rule1 But then I believe belive naaTTai requires mrs and mgrs is not allowed for whatever reason!
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