Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

To teach and learn Indian classical music
Post Reply
cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Not to confuse with the vocal the instrumental exercises may be analyzed and discussed here.
Here is the sample posted by ninja
http://www.cens.nau.edu/~nv9/etc/identi ... ample2.mp3

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

should we wait for a bit of time as rajesh requested it and others may feel the same?

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Yes indeed!

Please wait till Thursday 20/9/2007 to post answers and comments

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Superb mohanam! Perhaps a prelude to the accompaniment of Evarura ? The piece is too long to tease out the svaras. If you can identify a short time frame phrase then we can attempt. I guess it is LGJ. Do spell out what is expected? Do you have the answers?

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

artist Mc?

Here is my partial analysis
Mohana- SR2G3PD2S/SDPGRS
The Sruti is at B

Most of the alapana is spanning uttaranga of middle octave and higher octave(starting at 0.13 sec onwards..). Towards the end it winds back to normal octave.

One can hear S`at 1-2 sec
Stopping points are mostly Gandharam . Hear between 0:42-48 it is all G`
You can hear R` at 53-55
P` can be heard at 0:28

Middle G can be heard 1:21-1:22

I did not give swara breakdown of phrases. Someone can attempt and I can comment.
This is easier than abhOgi
Last edited by Suji Ram on 20 Sep 2007, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-members, cmlover & sujiram, The Violinist is neither LGJ nor MC. He must be TNK. amsharma.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Sample 2: My answers - I am just posting it before looking at any other answers. Hopefully I did a decent job

1. Raga: Mohanam, Structure: S R2 G3 P D2 S S D2 P G3 R2 S
2. Swaras (some exampls):
mandra da and mandra pa: briefly at 1.41 to 1:43 - i cannot decipher this fully
madya ga: 25.8s with a slight kampita
madya pa: 1.22s to 1.24s
madya da: 22.5 (first note after pause before 22.5: it goes like ds'r'g',)

tara Sa: 0.9s to 3.6s
tara ri:
(a) 23.1 (third note after pause before 22.5)
(b) also more prominently at 28s to 29s (held steady before going up to touch tara pa briefly). There is one more "similar" occurence later. Can you identify?
tara Ga: 23. 23.5s (fourth note after pause before 22.5), also more prominently 15.5s to 17.7s. There are many more.
tara pa: briefly around 1:04 (at the same time where this is a firecracker like sound :) )

3. First Phrase (10s)

Code: Select all

g p d s' , s' s', s' s'd (p)/s'   d/r'd   p (d)g p

simpler form: (without those anuswaras which I could be perceiving incorrectly!)

g p d s' , s' s' s' d /s'  /r' p g p

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

rajesh - we waited for you. Where is your answer :) ?

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Arun,
I matched your tara R` with mine (different time point) and they are identical.
53-55. is that the one?
Not sure about the P` at firecracker point. Can you check at 28 sec?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 20 Sep 2007, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Arun
I concur with you on the first 10 secs.
I also agree it is B
What is the vocalist saying at 36 secs ?
I don't hear a firecracker at 64 secs! Where is it?

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

suji - to me 28s sounds like G' the phrase between 26s to 28s seems to r~ r~ r,/g(r) where the two r~ is really R(g)r (nokku). I could be wrong though. I think at 1:04s the slide reaches higher in pitch than here (pa there, ga here.)

53-55 - yep that too for tara ri. I think there is one in later around 1:16-1:17. That was what I was referring to

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

cmlover: :You don't hear the firecracker? On Goldwave, it is between 1.03.625 and 1.04.605. So it towards end of 1:03 and beginning of 1:04

I think at 36s the vocalist (SSI?) is simply saying "aa.m" as an approval of the violist.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Thanks got it!
I guess he says again 'aam' at 1:19 !

Thanks Sarmaji for identifying the violinist!

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

I agree there is nokku at 1.04
also after the sustaint R I guess between 1:03 to 1:06 it is (tara)
RGRG PGS'R'P'P'

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

arunk wrote:suji - to me 28s sounds like G' ... I think at 1:04s the slide reaches higher in pitch than here (pa there, ga here.)
suji - I was checking back at my posts and I see in my original answer I had thought at 28s it hit pa just like your answer. But I forgot about it and when you asked and I listened, it seemed like ga :( ! I listened again and I think our orginal answer may be right - Pa but probably touched more briefly than the other places

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 21 Sep 2007, 01:23, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

cmlover wrote:I agree there is nokku at 1.04
also after the sustaint R I guess between 1:03 to 1:06 it is (tara)
RGRG PGS'R'P'P'
This is tough - too many short notes and so I cannot tell for sure. I seem to arrive at

dsr'g'pg'rg' sr'g'p' g s

But this is a shaky guess. The only thing I am sure of is that it reaches pa around the time there is firecracker sound. I don't know which note has the nokku you are referring to.
Last edited by arunk on 21 Sep 2007, 01:31, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

can someone check the above 1:03 to 1:06? i.e. cmlovers vs. mine (or something else).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 21 Sep 2007, 02:31, edited 1 time in total.

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

arunk wrote:can someone check the above 1:03 to 1:06? i.e. cmlovers vs. mine (or something else).

Arun
This is what it is - I started at 1:02 to start the phrase logically

p d s' r' g' p' g' r' s' r' g' p' r..' s'.. (starting at 1:02) - jAru between P' and R'
p d s' r' g' p'g' r' s' d (etc etc).

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 21 Sep 2007, 03:49, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Arun
It is extremely difficult to tease out the notes of short duration in fast tempo. The hand and bow move too fast and the notes do slur. My RGRG could be your PGRG since the bow moves too fast and our ears have a 'persistence of sound'. We can reliably analyze only the slow notes!By slowing it down 4 times I noticed there are close to 20 notes in that region some are too fleeting. Also the recording is not that good to distinguish the sounds :)

ninjathegreat
Posts: 301
Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

Caught up with work.... Let me just say that Sharmaji was accurate:it is TNK, the rAgam is mOhanam... and cml sir, the vocalist is MMI, and yes, a prelude to evarura... Concert is MA 1964...
Last edited by ninjathegreat on 21 Sep 2007, 09:36, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

cmlover - Yes I agree. Fast/short notes are certainly beyond my abilities and reliability of the answer starts dropping exponentially.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Also since this has been pickedup from an old recording (not of high quality) there is no point discussing the subtle note differentiations. The test piece should be top quality (without contaminating firecrackers or 'aams' :) Need not be by an expert as long as it is clean and unambiguous!

ninjathegreat
Posts: 301
Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

hmmmm.. understood!

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I am posting this without looking at the answers. After this I will read up and learn. I gave up after a while to decode the swaras since the instrumental piece was a bit fast paced. After several tries to follow along on my flute, I decided to follow another tactic. Internalize the alapana as much as possible and then use that as an inspiration for my own playing without trying to follow note by note. I am enclosing two such attempts. The first one is a bit of a noisy recording ( sorry ).

http://rapidshare.com/files/59202524/In ... s.zip.html
http://www.sendspace.com/file/4fgclb ( alternate download location since bilahari could not download from rapidshare )

Definitely, the alapana is mono-themed.. ;)

Submitting so I can get your feedback.

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Very nice VK, now Im inspired by your playing!

bilahari
Posts: 2631
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Post by bilahari »

VK, I'd really like to listen to your rendition, but rapidshare doesn't agree with my connection. Could you please upload it in alternative site?

Sorry I haven't taken part in a lot of the swara exercises, but I just had my tonsils removed, and have been in a lot of pain for some time now. I thought the Abhogi was a lot more difficult than this one. I just tried to decode the 1.5 minute alapanai into swaras, and it took me one whole hour! I'll post my answers in a few hours, but surveying those given here, even my first phrase doesn't seem right! I have the starting as s r g p,,, d d d d,,, d, d, d d, d d S , , d p,, p, g,, p d,,,, from the first to the seventh second...

Thanks for this practice clip! It has been extremely challenging... I did realise quite early that it was TNK because of his characteristic phrases that I can demonstrate better with examples. He loves playing phrases like in 1.20 to 1.24, with dp dp dp d S,,,, d, p, ,,, gr gr gr gr g p,,,, g r,,,, . Sort of these short doublets followed by a long slide to the next note in ascension. It has a great effect.

OK, more later, I must presently writhe in pain.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Bilahari,
Get well soon to enjoy your music (and to sing it too).

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

VK

Finally you have come out! I could hear mohanam with my eyes closed (not ears, of course :) The kaarvai's are just great ! Actually your pieces can be used as our decoding exercise (if you agree) since you already know each note you played. We can await the concurrence from our quiz master! Then we should be able to give detailed comments. In short the manodharma is intrinsic and very nice. You just need practice!

May I venture and award the title sharadkOkilam (appropriate for this season) if our queen will condescend to confirm :)

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

A kokilam for all seasons, this man VK...

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thank you all. The only thing I can guarantee you is my piece is like no other piece out there note for note.. :P

CML, I am only too glad you heard Mohanam there!! I mentioned that TNK's piece is the inspiration. That may be overstating it since that can mean some abstract things. May be the appropriate word is 'model' or 'base'. The overall structure is borrowed from that piece and since I could not completely replicate it, I took the liberty to go on my own but still in that mould. When I listened to the recording myself, it does not sound like a typical flute alapana, it sounded like someone playing it in the Violin style :LOL: That itself is worth thinking thru for me.

Regarding using it for decoding, I am perfectly fine with it if you all consider it is worthy of such analysis. For answers, I do not have the swaras written down, I will have to decode them myself but hopefully I can do it with less difficulty but not necessarily 100% accurately. So, I would not be the ultimate judge, it still has to go by consensus.

Bilahari: Best wishes for a fast recovery. I have uploaded it to sendspace and updated my post with the sendspace link.

bilahari
Posts: 2631
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Post by bilahari »

Arasi and VK, Thanks for your good wishes for what is turning out to be a frustratingly slow recovery...

VK, You certainly do deserve the artiste's attribution! Your Mohanam was crystal clear, with some very melodious phrases we must dissect. I could hear some TNK phrases there, which were well woven into your own alapnai, with a noticeable pidi in the second one (either p g,, r,,, (s) or d p g,, r,,, ?). At 1.25, your momentary dwelling in the higher octave (panchamam?) was very evocative. The only thing that didn't quite strike a chord with me was the speed of oscillations towards the end, which was a bit slow. But the tone of your playing is consistent, and your swaras fall at their right places, and I think you've been rather severely downplaying your music-making abilities!

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Bilahari, thanks and you are very kind. And with good insightful comments in spite of the pain!! You do have a point about the oscillation at the end. Though I personally like that sound sequence, that may not go with acceptable Mohanam gamakam. That ending sounded like some bit from a hindi film song but I can not pin point it now. That is some great feedback, thanks Bilahari.

bilahari
Posts: 2631
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Post by bilahari »

But VK, why do you say your alapanai sounds like a violin version? I think it sounds very fluid on the flute.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Bilahari, I can not think of a specific reason, may be it is just the violin bANi that acted as the model. Before this, I never tried to play an alapana in the usual concert style and so TNK's piece made me use his structure, that measured nidhAnam that professional artists use during the alapana.

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

VK,
is the TNK's piece available? I haven't heard him play mOhana. Would be nice to have.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji, I am only referring to the piece that we dissected here. As Ninja confirmed, the violin piece he posted for analysis ".... is TNK, the rAgam is mOhanam... the vocalist is MMI, and yes, a prelude to evarura... Concert is MA 1964..."

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Oh ! it is the same.
Thanks

ninjathegreat
Posts: 301
Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

sorry about my sporadic posts here. Having a bad week... Neways, vk, superb!

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

sample 6

G, RGRSR,
RSSGRG SRSSD RGRGPGPD,P

Now I am more used to this tune than the usual one in varnam

The one in bold was typo before. I wrote S instead of G
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Oct 2007, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

:)

bilahari
Posts: 2631
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Post by bilahari »

I concur with Suji, except I have the middle sequence as RSSGSG SRSSD. But the notes aren't crystal clear, so I suppose several interpretations are possible. Definitely an unexpected twist to the mukthayi swaras in Ninnu Kori!

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

:) ;)

Trust you are fully recovered from the tonsilectomy! You must be quite careful in future regarding respiratory infections since Tonsils are the body's first line of defense!

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

g,rgrsr, rs sgrg srs sd` rgr gpg pd,p,,,

(spacing above just to reflect how i interpreted the phrasing)

I guess per talam it would be

g, rg rs r, rs sg rg sr | ss d`r gr go | gp d, p, ,, ||

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

I corrected my typo in my answer which I had originally on paper!

Still differs from bilahari though.

This sample is interesting. Our mind is so tuned to the familiar mukhtayi-making it hard to accept something different. Only when I got the tune memorized that I could decipher it.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Oct 2007, 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

arising quite hurt
a duo joints !
:)
But will wait for VK and others !

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

I was wondering what everyone was talking about untill I heard the clip :)

This is from the mOhana varNa, sligtly different from what I have leant;

g, rg | rs r, | sr sg | rg sr | sdsr |gr gp | gp d, | p, -> my version

g, rg | rs r, | rs. sg | rg sr |ssdr | gr gp |gp d, | p, -> violin track #6
Last edited by ramakriya on 02 Oct 2007, 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

ramakriya wrote:I was wondering what everyone was talking about untill I heard the clip :)

This is from the mOhana varNa, sligtly different from what I have leant;

g, rg | rs r, | sr sg | rg sr | sdsr |gr gp | gp d, | p, -> my version

g, rg | rs r, | rs. sg | rg sr |ssdr | gr gp |gp d, | p, -> violin track #6
Nicely represented!

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

No point in waiting any more!
arun is quite right
and suji too !

(suddenly my joints hurt is gone :)

and of course ramakriya has nicely formatted the solution. I took the violin recital of a 'famous' (solid shruti) vidvaan and doctored the notes.

Congratulations on your keen hearing, sense of svarasthanas and sense of recall!
Note that it is mantra dhaivatam as arun ha correctly notated.

Congratulations to one and all of you!
(would you have gotten it if it was in the durita kaalam ?)

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

I took the violin recital of a 'famous' (solid shruti) vidvaan and doctored the notes.
I really wondered who would do that for real unless the vidwan had failing memory ! :)
In reality we would not have such prayogas I thought.

Nice work on doctoring. I hope you won't do that in future

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

No fears!
I have quit my profession now :)

Why do you say such prayogas are not allowed?
Of course I have heard several not-in-the-book prayogas in varnams by famous artistes (not necessarily due to Alzheimers :)

Post Reply