Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

To teach and learn Indian classical music
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cmlover
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#501

Post by cmlover » 02 Nov 2007, 03:04

VK
Not too fast!
Now I am totally confused. According to your post #431
Aro: s g p r' s`
avaro s` p g n` s
Now you claim
Arohanam: S G3 P N2 R2' S '
Avarohanam: S' P G R N`S
So which is the 'real' vasanthakokiladhvani?
It is becoming a nightmare keeping track of '`' vs ''' .
Let us be consistent and not make typos!
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vasanthakokilam
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#502

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 03:05

Understood Arun.

And if I understood right, it is all for continous phrases. Will ( P N... <pause> P R' S ) or ( P N R,,, P R S' ) be OK?

CML, still do not take this as cast in stone. Sorry for the confusion. You are catching it in the fastly evolving phase of this organism :D

After playing the modified one for a while and listening to it again, it shows some resemblance to Revathi a bit too much to my liking eventhough the swaras are different. ( not that there is anything wrong with that, I love that raga )

So it may still change.
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vasanthakokilam
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#503

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 03:09

It is becoming a nightmare keeping track of '`' vs ''' .
:) Me too. I have to be very careful. The readability of this scheme is not very good. It is hard to read the ` and '. Arun, we need a new scheme. Can we combine small and capital letters to our advantage? Just a suggestion.
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vasanthakokilam
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#504

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 03:16

If we want to combine Capital and small, one suggestion would be

s r g m p d n for the middle and S R G M P D N for the higher ocative and s`, r`, g`, m`, p` for the lower octave. So the full spectrum would be

s` r` g` m` p` d` n` s r g m p d n S R G M P D N

I am also OK to use the regular single quote for the lower octave instead of back tick now that we do not have to use both quotes. In that case it will be

s' r' g' m' p' d' n' s r g m p d n S R G M P D N


Feel free to modfy.

CML, would this be better?
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cmlover
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#505

Post by cmlover » 02 Nov 2007, 03:17

Just keep in mind that we are (especially me :) not as smart as Arun !
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cmlover
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#506

Post by cmlover » 02 Nov 2007, 03:20

s' r' g' m' p' d' n' s r g m p d n S R G M P D N S"

may be good for a full range without ambiguity!
Since atitaara S" will rarely be used!
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cmlover
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#507

Post by cmlover » 02 Nov 2007, 03:26

This is a janya of chaarukesi or riShabhapriya (since madhyama varjyam)!
or HK or vaachaspati (also dhaivata varjyam)
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arunk
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#508

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 05:09

s' s and S are fine by me.

> And if I understood right, it is all for continous phrases. Will ( P N... <pause> P R' S ) or ( P N R,,, P R S' ) be OK?
I am not 100% sure but I dont think so.

I think you may be able to get away with such a pause at the end of stanza - followed by like an avarthana of just percussion. In other words, so the part following is clearly disjointed, a different melody line, from the part before. This means a pause in the middle of a phrase, or even a stanza would not qualif.

In compositions, I think (not 100% sure) even between stanzas, or end of stanza to the refrain, the order is followed. I have observed this a little in varnams. So I think I believe in general deviating order is not kosher.

Arun
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arunk
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#509

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 05:14

vasanthakokilam wrote:After playing the modified one for a while and listening to it again, it shows some resemblance to Revathi a bit too much to my liking eventhough the swaras are different. .
How so? I mean you have exactly 1 swara beside s and pa that matches it :)

Maybe you were emphasizing pa or ga so much and sruthi bedham on it leads to something close to revathi?

Arun
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arunk
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#510

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 05:43

actually even in my example previously i had this:

(new scheme)
n'sgn's n'sgpn's

This has sn' (and of course sn's). I am not sure if this is allowed or not.

While I think from sa you go in both directions for a raga - but I am having doubts. If you have a raga like s g p n S and S n p g r s, then s-r-s is allowed right? (only s-r-g i.e. ascending from ri is disallowed). Similarly if you have s r m p n S and S d p m r s, would s-n-s be allowed?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2007, 05:44, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#511

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 05:49

arunk wrote:
vasanthakokilam wrote:After playing the modified one for a while and listening to it again, it shows some resemblance to Revathi a bit too much to my liking eventhough the swaras are different. .
How so? I mean you have exactly 1 swara beside s and pa that matches it :)

Maybe you were emphasizing pa or ga so much and sruthi bedham on it leads to something close to revathi?

Arun
When I said resemblance, it may just be the pattern of usage. r n' s p' n' r s usage reminded me of Revathi even though it is a different r. It is quite interesting. I will work on it some more.
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arunk
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#512

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 06:01

suji - I need some clues to make progress on your exercise :)
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arunk
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#513

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 06:07

I think s-r-s is allowed in ragas like kedaram (is there in navaraga varanam itself s-n'-s-r-s-n' s-m-g-m p-n-p-m).

The other kind where you have say n in arohana, but not in avarohana - seems is sort of rare. There are a few ragas many rare/old - but among popular ones kannada is one alhough it speciically has rn's in avarohana :) . There is also janaranjani (S R2 G3 M1 P D2 P N3 S | S D2 P M1 R2 S), is S-n-S allowed there?

Arun
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vasanthakokilam
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#514

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 06:49

After some more deliberations, here is what I have settled down for now. I think this retains the original color and still rectfies the one jump siutation which needed some help along the lines Arun suggested.

Raga: Vasantha Kokiladhvani

Arohanam: s g3 p R2 S
Avarohanam: S p g r n' s

g n' s and G n S are allowed occasionally, especially the higher octave G n S.

g r s ( G R S ) is not OK but g r n' s ( G R n S ) is OK ( as can be interpreted from the Aro/Ava above )

Here is a very short snippet covering the aro/ava: http://www.sendspace.com/file/prk654
( song structure again borrowed from another well known song ).
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Suji Ram
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#515

Post by Suji Ram » 02 Nov 2007, 06:52

arunk wrote:suji - I need some clues to make progress on your exercise :)
You are on track with 2 of your ragas in sample 20 A. The sample B might set the other one right when you match it. Will be interesting how you analyzed.
rItigowla is fine I was just wondering if you had any other clue beside nsggm

My aim here is to bring some contrast to how each raga sound in different quadrant. The sample A and B are conversing with one another :)
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Nov 2007, 06:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#516

Post by Suji Ram » 02 Nov 2007, 07:03

VK I like the scale. If you are fixed on this one. I will attempt something...this thread is taking me to composing. Heard the scale -sounds good
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cmlover
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#517

Post by cmlover » 02 Nov 2007, 07:28

VK
did you mean to say
G n S is allowed? (watchout for notation!)
Of course G R n S is allowed..
Again g r s is not OK Agreed!
but g r n s is OK. Should this not be g r n' s ?
You are driving me crazy :)
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vasanthakokilam
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#518

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 07:40

CML, sorry. I have fixed my post to reflect your comments. Hope the confusing notations are taken care of.

One thing we need to standarize on is this: We have notations for the three octaves ( for a good reason ) but then when we talk abuot specific usages especially when it crosses sthayi boundary, we are forced to provide both sthayis. I guess we have to stipulate that if we write s g n' s is allowed, it also implies S G n S is allowed unless otherwise specified.

Suji, yes it is stable now.
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arunk
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#519

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 07:50

vk - it is of course your raga :). But the main reason I had p n R S was to prevent the two wide-jumps when ascending from pa and coming back to it i.e. p R S p (consecutive). I thought that was the main constricting thing for me (rather then needing r in g r). The p R S and S p in structure forces discreteness in the melody everytime you go beyond pa and you want to get back to it.

With this new one, we could of course do p R S G R n S p to space out the 2 jumps but that seems very roundabout :), a lot of that route dictated by the scale. And melodically it seems to sort of go helter skelter! One could instead do p R S G n S p, but then does not help as it actually makes it 3 wide jumps, and 2 wide jumps right next to each other (G n and S p).

But would p R n S p be now allowed? Seem so - and if so that may be ok
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2007, 07:52, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#520

Post by vasanthakokilam » 02 Nov 2007, 08:11

>But would p R n S p be now allowed? Seem so - and if so that may be ok

Yes, I also think so.

The reason for taking out the 'n' in the arohanam is basically after playing with that, I felt the original color gave way to some already familiar ones.

The one thing that sounded better for me to address the 2 jump issue ( and reduce it to 1 jump ) is this: Keep the arohanam the same but in Avarohanam S d p g r n' s. It has a good teasing quality of sounding like Mohanam and then brings up a surpise with the g r n' s. Also, S d p p R S retains the original color. I am still playing with it. It has some chance of making it but I do not want to rush it yet.

So, this is cooking in public. CML, Suji you said you want to experiment with this. Feel free to do so in its current form , it is more or less stable but be prepared for some ongoing construction work. S p g in the avarohanam would not be disallowed.
But it is all part of the fun. In fact, I will wait till your experimentation to see what you all do with it. If it all sounds good, I will leave it the way it is.

Thanks Arun for all your input. It has been very educational and fun.
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arasi
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#521

Post by arasi » 02 Nov 2007, 08:19

Suji,
Going back to your Halloween night, my, that was some production! Highly imaginative! That is why I call you enterprising in the other thread...
Last edited by arasi on 02 Nov 2007, 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#522

Post by Suji Ram » 02 Nov 2007, 08:32

In fact, I will wait till your experimentation to see what you all do with it. If it all sounds good, I will leave it the way it is.
That will take some days or weeks.
or may be sooner-I usually get creative in the 11th hour.
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Suji Ram
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#523

Post by Suji Ram » 02 Nov 2007, 12:42

That is why I call you enterprising in the other thread...
Thanks. But look who is talking....
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arunk
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#524

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 22:10

A little quiz. I have this contrived scale:

s r1 m1 n2 S
S d2 p g3 s

(note: corrected from original which had stayi indicators all wrong)

1. What is "special" about this scale?
2. I am not 100% sure about this: (This sort of follows from answer to 1 above), there is a "problem" in constructing (cm type) melodies with this scale. What is it?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2007, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#525

Post by cmlover » 02 Nov 2007, 22:24

1. There is no overlap between ar/avaro other than the shadjam.
There are wild swings from madhyama to taara scales. I am not sure these are harmonic.
2. It is impossible for human voice to traverse such wild jumps. Only instruments (VK's flute; suji's violin :) can execute such acrobatics.
I doubt whether it would be an acceptable CM melody!

Who knows! I am already struggling with vasnathakokiladhvani :)
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