Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

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Suji Ram
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#526

Post by Suji Ram » 02 Nov 2007, 22:45

To me it is like cakravAkam scale with different skips in aro/ava
I don't think you can even play it. You will have to linger in ascending phrase with no where to go and vice verse
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ramakriya
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#527

Post by ramakriya » 02 Nov 2007, 22:51

arunk wrote:A little quiz. I have this contrived scale:

s R1 M1 N2 S
S d2 P G3 s

1. What is "special" about this scale?
2. I am not 100% sure about this: (This sort of follows from answer to 1 above), there is a "problem" in constructing (cm type) melodies with this scale. What is it?

Arun
Nothing wrong :cool:


You just gave two brand new scales to Sri BMK :P if he has not tried them out! Particularly the avarOhaNa ( if has the same ArOha s G3 p D2 s) is very workable, except for the resemblance to Mohana. May be it can be named as mOhanamuraLi :)

p.s: Just for little fun- I have the utmost respect for Sri BMK, as some of the rasikas here may know.

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 02 Nov 2007, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#528

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 23:40

cmlover wrote:1. There is no overlap between ar/avaro other than the shadjam.
There are wild swings from madhyama to taara scales
aargh - I made typos for stayis! I guess no matter what the scheme is, we are mistake prone. Sorry.

I meant

s r1 m1 n2 S
S d2 p g3 s

No wild swings. There is one large swing from m1 to n2, but they are harmonically related and this type of a transition occurs in many popular ragas (rItigowla, nATAkurinji)

But I still think there is a "problem".

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2007, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#529

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 23:41

Hint:

1. Try to start traversing up - and then see where you can traverse down
2. Try the reverse. Start to go down - and then try to find a place to go up.

Arun
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Suji Ram
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#530

Post by Suji Ram » 02 Nov 2007, 23:45

arunk wrote:Hint:

1. Try to start traversing up - and then see where you can traverse down
2. Try the reverse. Start to go down - and then try to find a place to go up.

Arun
I couldn't do that. That' what I was implying in my post.
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arunk
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#531

Post by arunk » 02 Nov 2007, 23:54

yes suji. I missed that sorry :)

I think anywhere you start (other than sa) you have to head to the next sa in that direction before turning around. So any melody in this scale would simply be a run up and down the scale.

Am I right?

Arun
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Suji Ram
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#532

Post by Suji Ram » 03 Nov 2007, 00:15

this is what is playable but under some constraints
SRMNS'
S'DPGS
RMNS'R'
G'S'DPG
MNS'R'M'
P'G'S'DPGS
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vasanthakokilam
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#533

Post by vasanthakokilam » 03 Nov 2007, 00:23

Arun, Is that really a rule that is followed? Meaning, you can only turn back on a common swara between aro/ava? I know you mentioned that yesterday but I thought you yourself found exceptions. May be I did not quite follow.

I would intutively think a karvai and a pause on one note is enough to change directions. Aren't there such discontinous flows in songs?
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arunk
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#534

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 00:30

vk - I believe it is a rule in krithis - but i cannot bet for sure on it. I would like to proven wrong. Like I said, if a clear disjoint is established it should not spoil the raga mood, but I think such disjoints are NOT present in cm krithis. (Again not ready to bet :)) The end of any stanza always ties back to pallavi. End of pallavi - is "compatible" with anupallavi and charanam. These brige-overs I think would follow the rule.

Btw, I did not find exceptions. Only from sa (being tonic) you go either way (and janaranjini does allow sns - i checked SS's krithi's notation).

So in suji's example above some would be disallowed (R'G' GM, MP).
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#535

Post by vasanthakokilam » 03 Nov 2007, 02:37

Thanks Arun for the clarification...We are on the same page now.

How about this: s r m,,,,< pause> s d' p'
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cmlover
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#536

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 05:26

I thought that 'thaaTTu' svara prayOgam (fully allowed in CM) always permits jump to any svara, except that the jump must be harmonically related so that it is not unmusical!
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arunk
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#537

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 05:57

cmlover, they are allowed only from swaras that allow movement in the direction of the jump.

For example, in a raga with arohana like s r m p d S/S d p m g r s, you can do s g r m but then cannot follow with g p i.e. s g r m g p would be disallowed.

Also jumps need not be harmonically related although jumps between harmonically related ones are (obviously) more common. For example I learnt a piece in vasanta (my teached called in swara-pallavi), which uses m-n i.e. m1-n3 this is a spacing of s-m2 - not harmonic (unlike s-m1 or s-p).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 05:57, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#538

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 06:01

vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks Arun for the clarification...We are on the same page now.

How about this: s r m,,,,< pause> s d' p'
I guess these things may be subjective. If it is within a stanza - then I think in general this would not be kosher. If a stanza ends in ma, and then a good pase and then you start with (lower) sa, maybe.

But you see that is the problem in this scale. Anytime you want to change directions other than at sa (or lower/higher allowed in swara in that direction i.e. you can do S d p g n' s r, need not always change direction at s), you must give a substantial pause. That itself is going to cause discontinuity. Either that or you must reach atleast the end of the octave in that direction.

Arun
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arunk
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#539

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 07:24

duh! I suddenly realized there is more scope and I was just being plain dumb

In the raga s r m n S / S d p g s, one can do something r-g-r-m-p-m-n-S. Each transition here is allowed by the scale. The important, basic thing that completely skipped my mind is that from ri, one need not be mandated to ma (and thus to ni) i.e. what is in the arohana. The arohana does not imply order of notes in ascent (except in vakra stuff) - it simply indicates from which notes one can desend. So from ri one can ascend, and one can ascend to ga or ma etc. If ascending to ga, after that one must of course desend - but that can be to ri, sa, or ni' etc.

This is what cmlover implied above - one can indeed ascend TO any swara (albeit nearbvy ones are generally what is done except for some wide jumps). My mind was simply only focused when whether one can ascend FROM a swara. In other words, I was only looking at the starting swara. Boy do I feel like an idiot :).

So the melodies in the scale wont be simple walk up and down the scale as I had thought


Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 07:31, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#540

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 07:37

Some allowed snippets (dont know their musical value)

m-d-p
m-d-p-m-n-S
S-n-S or s-n'-s
S-d-m-n-S
p-m-d-p
s-r-g-r-g-s
n'-s-r-g-r-g-s

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 07:37, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#541

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 09:45

Arun
For example, in a raga with arohana like s r m p d S/S d p m g r s, you can do s g r m but then cannot follow with g p i.e. s g r m g p would be disallowed.
Here starting from s you can go to mantra avarohana svaras or arohana. Hence sg will be illegal according to your arohana. You can have Sg if that is what you meant!
Now Sgrmg is a perfectly legal complete phrase. You can now start a new phrase starting with p . Whence Sgrmg p will be quite all right with the vishraanti!
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cmlover
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#542

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 09:56

I am getting ready with my half-baked experiment with vasanthakokiladhvani. Here is the first composition.

Ragam vasanthakOkiladhvani

Lyric

P: gaNapatiyE sharaNaM
AruL purivAy dinamE- ma^NgaLa

AP: vidhi mAdhavan thozhum vinAyakanE
gadi nI allaal vERevarE

C: (durita kaalam with citta svaram)
Vasantha kOkila innisai chuvai nee thaa
Akila ulagil unatharuLal pugazhum maruviDumE

I have notated it and have it sung through computer. Here is the audio
http://www.mediafire.com/?cz2m00f1kh2

Alternate location: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mlkirn

Of course it sounds different from any raga we know (maybe slight resemblance to Hamsadhvani ? since it is HK janya). Because of the 'high jumps' very difficult to sing. I could not attempt it since my voice breaks down :)
Though from conventional CM perpective it may sound 'exotic' I am sure it can find a place in the repertoire as it does not violate any rules. It may sound much better with nice instruments though the western instruments provided under MIDI are very inadequate.

Comments please...
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arunk
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#543

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 19:06

cmlover wrote:Hence sg will be illegal according to your arohana.
No cmlover. This is the common misconception - somehow very tempting for all of us to fall (as I fell for again here inspite of knowing about it ;)). Arohana except in cases of vakra does NOT determine ORDER of ascent. It simply says from what swaras you can ascend. So s r m n s, does NOT say you must ascend only as "s r" - it simply says you can ascend from sa, ri, ma, and ni. So s-g would be admissible (but not ideal) as you can ascend but sa. Only that you cannot do neither s-g-m but can do s-g-r-m (or s-g-s)

For example in sAveri you gave s-r-m-p-d-S and S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s, but even in varnam you have s-g-r-s (3rd chittaswaram). You also have a few occurences of d-G-r-s

Arun
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cmlover
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#544

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 20:13

Arun
This is just ridiculous. I agree with you on saveri where we have srg mpd nSR are all used. By putting them in squence you get srgmpdnSR which totally violates the arohana of the raga itself. There are no proscriptions on contiguous raga phrases!
Pl clarify...
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arunk
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#545

Post by arunk » 03 Nov 2007, 20:51

cmlover - pl. read my post again. I did not say s-r-g-m is allowed in sAveri. I only said that s-g is NOT disallowed (in sAveri as well as our s r m n S/S d p g s)

s-r-g-m (or s-g-m) is disallowed. Why? Because g-m is disallowed (as g is only in avaroha => you can only descend from ga). But more importantly, not because says it is s-r-m in arohana


Both s-g and s-r-g are very much allowed but only as long as you descend from g. That is why you have s-r-g-r and s-g-r and d-g-r etc. (s-g-r also occurs in muktayi for the varnam).

This is not unique to sAveri. Take durbAr varnam (ga only in avarohanam), you will find n-G. Take kAmbhOji (ni only in avarohana), in the Adi tala varnam, you will find m-n, p-n and d-n

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Nov 2007, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#546

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 21:46

So let me summarize the rule.
If you land on any svara occurring only in arohana you are permitted to ascend to any note in ascent occurring in either aro or avaro. You are always permitted to descend to any note occurring in the avaro.
On the other hand if you are on a note occurring only in the avaro then you are permitted to descend ( not ascend to any note in aro or avaro!

Is this not discrimination?
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vasanthakokilam
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#547

Post by vasanthakokilam » 03 Nov 2007, 21:57

As I let the fascinating Aro/Ava discussion sink in ( CML, I do not think Arun implied any Asymmetrical rule except he happened to discuss the Arohana cases ) ............. CML I can not download your recording. Mediafire says 'your download is starting' but jus hangs there. Please look into it, or upload to another site. Thanks.
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arasi
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#548

Post by arasi » 03 Nov 2007, 22:21

Yes, CML, I have tried too...
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cmlover
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#549

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 22:55

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cmlover
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#550

Post by cmlover » 03 Nov 2007, 22:59

VK
If that is true when he claims 'sg' is admissible though g is not in the arohana, he states gm is not admissible since g is not in arohana and that you can only descend from g since it is only in the avarohana!
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