Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

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cmlover
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#576

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 22:31

http://www.sendspace.com/file/c18ur9

OK folks!
Here is the super varnam of Suji in the stellar raga vasanthakokiladhvani.

I have written the Lyric for whatever has been composed so far:

Raga VasanthakOkiladhvani

MeLam 28:
Arohanam: s g3 p R2 S
Avarohanam: S p g3 r2 n2' s

P: Saami kAvAy aDimayai nOvathEn
pagaliravAka -a -a -u -unthanai paNinthE-E -n
AP: vA vA murugA kOla mayil mEl
thA thA mayal nIkkiDum aruL

Since it is difficult to do gamakams (I am not too good with pitch bends) Ihave taken very little comppromises. But svaras are as written by Suji. In my view this does not sound bad at all. Also singing is no problem but should wait for the completion of the 'oeuvre by the composer.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/c18ur9

comments please
( pardon me for the erotic piece; but that is the way varNams are supposed to be! Of course arasi would translate into 'chaste' english :)
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Suji Ram
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#577

Post by Suji Ram » 04 Nov 2007, 22:50

Thanks CML for fitting the varnam on flute. It does sound good. I was looking for the original sound of the cuckoo in the varnam and that is preserved-Im glad.

As to the lyrics I appreciate that. :)
But I would use very few words for the varnam otherwise it will sound like kriti.

I am polishing the rest of the varnam and it will be a while before I put it up here. Let me see if I can get creative with lyrics. It will be in colloquial telugu though. ;)
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cmlover
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#578

Post by cmlover » 04 Nov 2007, 22:55

That is what I wanted to hear! What is a varnam without Telugu words :)
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arasi
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#579

Post by arasi » 05 Nov 2007, 01:30

Suji,
Just heard your varnam. It is fantastic. You caught on to the spirit of the rAgA. Of course, the author will have to say if this was what he had in mind. Other than that, you did a great job.
Once the final version of the rAgA is posted (VK, take your time to stamp it 'okayed'), and who knows, there may be several composers who get inspired to sing in it...
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arasi
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#580

Post by arasi » 05 Nov 2007, 01:32

I hear more valaji now.
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Suji Ram
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#581

Post by Suji Ram » 05 Nov 2007, 01:54

Thanks Arasi,
I provided an audio on violin and notations in earlier post.

VK I have used the following for vasantakOkiladhwani

1. Janta prayogas for only S, G and P. And they can occur either in ascending or descending phrases.
2. No janta for N and R
3. dhIrga prayoga occurs for G, P and offcourse S.
4. A distinctive gamaka/nyasa for R and N.
5. GRNS, PRS, GPGP are used often and add beauty.

Check if this matches your thinking of this raga pattern.
Offcourse this is varnam so the tempo and swara constructions are different than for kriti
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vasanthakokilam
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#582

Post by vasanthakokilam » 05 Nov 2007, 04:56

CML, nice job on the computer generated stuff and the attempts at multiple speeds.

Suji, all your ideas are consistent with what I am thinking ( 1, 5 and 3 ). And your idea on 4 ( R N ) works very well. So please go ahead. I am not sure if you intended to post another link or not. In any case, we will wait. Thanks.
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arunk
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#583

Post by arunk » 05 Nov 2007, 05:24

cmlover wrote:Arun
All the three phrases are kosher in NaaTTai according to your rule1 But then I believe belive naaTTai requires mrs and mgrs is not allowed for whatever reason!
cmlover - pl. try again. You are not applying the procedure correctly. Can the rules I mention allow you to descend from ga for nATTai (as in m-g-r-s, as well as m-r-g-s)? That would require ga to be in avarohanam would it not? ga is not in the avarohanam for nATTai. So 1st and 2nd are disallowed. Third which is s-r-g-m-r-s is allowed (pl. apply procedure if you want and confirm).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2007, 05:26, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#584

Post by arunk » 05 Nov 2007, 05:30

suji,

your varnam sounds nice! Although with mandra gandaram, it will be a fairly stiff challenge amateur vocalists to pull it off in their usual singing sruthi :) I liked the gamaka on the nishada

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2007, 05:30, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#585

Post by cmlover » 05 Nov 2007, 06:28

Sorry! stupid of me. Got confused with the aro/avaro.
I agree with you. That is the reason mgrs is not allowed in NaaTTai and only mrs is allowed. I have to be careful in analyzing !
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vasanthakokilam
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#586

Post by vasanthakokilam » 05 Nov 2007, 06:39

So, Arun, is this rule/algorithm something you hit upon yourself or this is documented in books? Very clearly formulated method, by the way. Good job.

In fact, I am wondering if many of the complex aro/ava of some ragas are really not necessary except notating them as characteristic prayogas if they can be derived with your rule without vakram. I understand vakaram within an octave can not be done away with but some of the vakra definitions may be superflous.
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Suji Ram
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#587

Post by Suji Ram » 05 Nov 2007, 07:41

arunk wrote:suji,

your varnam sounds nice! Although with mandra gandaram, it will be a fairly stiff challenge amateur vocalists to pull it off in their usual singing sruthi :) I liked the gamaka on the nishada

Arun
Thanks

ah! I thought so someone is going to point that out. One can go until mandara M in abhogi- just a little lower and you are there.

I changed the Sruti of my recording to 5 and I did OK singing mandara G. I'm not sure of male voice. Is it difficult?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 05 Nov 2007, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#588

Post by Suji Ram » 05 Nov 2007, 09:13

vasanthakokilam wrote:CML, nice job on the computer generated stuff and the attempts at multiple speeds.

Suji, all your ideas are consistent with what I am thinking ( 1, 5 and 3 ). And your idea on 4 ( R N ) works very well. So please go ahead. I am not sure if you intended to post another link or not. In any case, we will wait. Thanks.
Thanks VK,

With just 5 swaras and constraints on usage we can get so much done!
I just need time to get it finished..
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vasanthakokilam
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#589

Post by vasanthakokilam » 05 Nov 2007, 09:42

I just need time to get it finished..
No problem. Take your time. Thanks.

I just tried the mandra sthayi prayogams. It is relatively easy on the flute to go down to g' and it sounds quite nice.

On the jantai prayogas and gamakas, I wish I can match to the level you have played, a lot of polish needed on my side to get there.
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arunk
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#590

Post by arunk » 05 Nov 2007, 20:44

suji -

I was mainly talking about every-day people i.e. average amateurs. And all of the below also applies mainly to them.

(Although this is my guess) From what I have observed, in general males do better in mandra stayi. The bass nature of the average male voice allows for more "volume" (thickness/weight) there compared to females.

A range of m1' (mandra suddha-madyama) to (tara panchama) is required and mostly handle most ragas. Again a guess - but I think a overwhelming % (i would say in high 90s) of varnams and krithis would be confined to this range. For example, if you have a valaji varnam, would it go to D2? That is pretty high.

Again among amateurs, a range of m1' to P for the same sruthi and where they can hit them clearly is not necessarily a trivial thing. I am not saying that it is rare of course - just that it is not child's play, not a given for everyone. Say one has to sing abhOgi varnam followed by hamsadhwani varnam (or kAmbhOji gItam) ...

Arun
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arunk
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#591

Post by arunk » 05 Nov 2007, 21:05

vasanthakokilam wrote:So, Arun, is this rule/algorithm something you hit upon yourself or this is documented in books? Very clearly formulated method, by the way. Good job.
I don't know if it is documented - and I would expect to be. I think this is one of those basic principles which is strangely not highlighted enough for us average rasikas. I figured this myself - atleast this is how I eventually understood things. The trouble is when someone is asked "how does that raga go"? The response is to sing the arohana and avarohana. Of course the raga contour for most ragas is indeed there in that. The fact that cm melodies do follow the order a lot of the time results in us being able to get a familiar "snippet" of the raga from the aro/avaro. But then to the layman, I think this sort of reinforces the simplistic (and incorrect) notion that the aro/avaro does indeed determine the order. We think it must be s-r-m in sAveri, and it must be p-d-S in kAmboji. And we do hear s-r-m and p-d-S a lot in those ragas! But soon then hear d-n-d, p-d-n-d, m-p-d-n-d, in kAmbhOji and scratch our heads :). We probably then conclude "ha! tough ragas dont always follow scale - this must be a special exception for kAmbhOji"!

I should also say the above rule(s) I mentioned should be applied only to confirm why something is allowed. I think raga laksya may rule out things which are allowed by this. For example, arbitrary jumping/skipping may seem right as-per aro/avaro, but raga mood/colour may disallow it (like what Uday mentioned earlier). Of course there are also many ragas, whose aro/avaro cannot be properly defined. And so they will allow stuff which the "approx aro/avaro" may disallow.
In fact, I am wondering if many of the complex aro/ava of some ragas are really not necessary except notating them as characteristic prayogas if they can be derived with your rule without vakram. I understand vakaram within an octave can not be done away with but some of the vakra definitions may be superflous.
I think this is not always the case. The trouble with these ragas may be that you may only be able to define a aro/avaro that either allows more than what the raga allows, or allows less than what the raga allows. These ragas may have "complex" restrictions than a simple one like "you can only descend from ga". For example, they may allow p-d, p-d-n but not m-p-d or p-d-n-S.

But yes - since SINGING aro/avaro is expected to provide a "synopis of the raga" - one is forced to include characteristic prayogas. But if such a raga, has also has complex restrictions, you are sort of between a rock and a hard place. You end up with allowing too much or allowing too litttle.

It would be an interesting exercise to take some "complex" ragas and dissect them. But then we have to know for sure what is allowed and not and we are just dabblers and babblers :)


Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2007, 21:09, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
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#592

Post by cmlover » 06 Nov 2007, 20:42

Thanks Arun!
That is a well written piece good enough to be published in a musical Journal. I remember once tangling with Uday on this issue and he tried his level bes to make me understand. Now with your pithy rule it becomes quite clear. Not that I will not make mistakes applying it :)

Raga lakShaNa is a very elusive phenomenon which can be 'felt/learned' but not clearly explained. It is like the intonation of the veedic mantras wherein no amount of rules can capture the spirit of the recitations.

Could you Arun also simplify and explain the sancharas in vakra ragas? Can the vakrahood be violated in svarakalpana if it preserves raga lakshana?
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arunk
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#593

Post by arunk » 06 Nov 2007, 20:59

Thanks cmlover,
cmlover wrote:Not that I will not make mistakes applying it :)
Dont feel bad. I cannot even state the rules without making a mistake. Just now, I realized I had originally stated it as:
From any swara, you can ascend if it is arohana.
From any swara, you can descend if it is arohana.

i.e. both as arohana :). Luckily I had explanations which hopefully pointed otherwise. But this may have caused you to incorrectly apply for nATTai. Anyway I fixed it now in that old post

I will look into vakra. I am not 100% but I think the rules there may be not as uniform. In some ragas vakra patterns are truly vakra (e.g SrIraga), and in others they just may indicate highlight a special prayoga which happens to be vakra - not sure though.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#594

Post by Suji Ram » 06 Nov 2007, 22:25

From any swara, you can descend if it is in arohana.
Are you missing an "in" in your statement?

rule or no rule-
I think there is something inherent in a melody that does not permit you to sing against the rules you mentioned.
Now that I am finishing the varnam it is hard to do a wrong move, the melody dictates you how you proceed up and down.
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arunk
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#595

Post by arunk » 06 Nov 2007, 22:30

arunk wrote:In some ragas vakra patterns are truly vakra (e.g SrIraga), and in others they just may indicate highlight a special prayoga which happens to be vakra - not sure though.
To highlight the latter, take darbAr. The commonly provided aro/avaro is:
s r2 m1 p d2 n2 S
S n2 d2 p m1 r2 g2 g2 r2 s

Note that vakra in avarohana as well as jhaNTa ga. What does this mean? That one MUST go down vakra as in m-r-g when descending TO ga from above? Also one MUST use jhaNTa when descending from ga like ga-ga-r-s? Well actually neither , although both are common.
1. m-r-g vakra is indeed common.
2. m-r-g-g-r-s i.e r-g-g from above is also indeed common.

Both have a strong darbAr stamp, particularly the second one. However, the varnam has m-g~-r-s (e.g. in pallavi, also in last cittaswara d , n S R S n~ ; d d p m d p m g~ ; r r s). Also you also have n-G-R-S (not that that this is not necessarily allowed by above).

So darbAr scale wise could have been S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s but m-g-r is not as common as vakra (and jhanTa in vakra). It is not rare but the vakra is essential for darbAr. So a simple scalar structure like S-n-d-p-m-g-r-s would be misleading that it does not convey in that the vakra (with jhaNTa on ga) is mandatory in a synopsis of darbAr.

But a vakra scale may be misleading too as it does not readily convey that m-g-r is also allowed. Note if we propose that since the vakra pattern is m-r-g-g-r, and thus m-g-r is a subset and thus implied, then we will have trouble with SrIraga which has the same pattern, but (i think) will have none of this m-g-r business (will then simply swallow maNIrangu into it ;)).

So what is the ideal representation for such ragas? And darbAr is perhaps not even the most complex of ragas :)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Nov 2007, 08:16, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#596

Post by arunk » 06 Nov 2007, 22:31

Suji Ram wrote:
From any swara, you can descend if it is in arohana.
Are you missing an "in" in your statement?
Yes. Thanks
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Suji Ram
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#597

Post by Suji Ram » 06 Nov 2007, 22:59

G , R~ , |N`~ , S , |R N` S G | R~, N` S|

Now looking at the first line in VKD varnam I first thought I violated a rule when I had S,| RNSG
Now is that OK? I am descending from S eventhough R does not appear in arohana.
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arunk
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#598

Post by arunk » 06 Nov 2007, 23:04

doesn't g-r-n'-s appear in avarOhana? So descending from ri is allowed. For example, in darbAr and SrIraga, you can have n-G-R. They do not mandate n-R-G-R i.e. with vakra. So here, s-r-n'-s can be allowed in the same vein. s-r-s => probably not (?). But then like I implied, vakra in the aro/avaro simply is whatever the raga melody dictates :). If raga mood is retained, I say why not?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Nov 2007, 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#599

Post by arunk » 06 Nov 2007, 23:06

Like you perhaps implied, we must never forget that lakhsya gives way to lakshaNa and not the other way - at least during early raga development.
Last edited by arunk on 06 Nov 2007, 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#600

Post by Suji Ram » 06 Nov 2007, 23:10

Thanks Arun,
I am more a visual thinker...get lazy when I have read rules.. :)
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