Technical Questions related to Carnatic Music

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param
Posts: 255
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 14:19

Post by param »

Dear all,

With due respect and honour to what CMLover says and going by his experience I do agree that all technical questions be discussed in this thread rather than any other - merely because they are purely technical in nature.

Feel free to post all your technical queries here.

param
Posts: 255
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 14:19

Post by param »

Thanks

Just some elementary questions. We are of course ignoring the other kriyas (guru, plutam etc.,) not commonly used. But why are we restricting to only 7 combinations of the the kriyas (laghu, dritham and anudritham). Is it because they are adequate to cover all common patterns. For example can't we have 2laghus + anudritham + dritham?
Again why can't the matras vary inside the taaLam (i.e., chatusram for laghu and thisram for dritham etc.,). If these are conventions then it is fine. But is there a mathematical reason for this formulation?
CMLji,

I do agree with what you offer. We can definitely have varying maatras for each stroke of the taalam (chatusram for the sashabdham of the laghu, tisram and kandam alternatively for the finger counts of the laghu, misram for the sashabdham of the dritham and sankeernam for the nishabdham of the dritham of a Kanda jaathi triputa taalam) but:
1. Is there anybody who will be able to continuously put the talam for the benefit of the violinist and the mridangist
2. Is there a kirtana set to this talam
3. Will the audience enjoy such an attempt
4. Will it not be termed as a trick?

The total maatraas will be 4+3+5+3+5+7+9+7+9 = 52 split into 9 non-equal beats. I look out for that kind of a talam to play a tani - would be a real challenge.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

haha!
So your short answer is simplicity! In that case we should all stick to sarvalaghu which is what SSI prefers. Rasikas once educated will appreciate the beautiful patterns even if they are complex! At present most of the CM Rasikas (even the sophisticated ones) worry more about the raga than the tALaas. The reson is melody is more easy to appreciate than rhythm which requires intellectual input. Our CM is dominated by the melody while other forms of music pay more attention to rhythms (I am just citing the exotic african rhythms or even the complicated Western dance steps!). We talk a lot about shruti bhedam but very little about gati bhedam. Thanks to that solitary experiment by BMK. In short we want the tALa specialists to educate us to appreciate the beauty of complex patterns and not to simplify everything through monocloning.

Again saahityas don't exist for complex patterns because most musicians do not pay too much attention to rhythm (at least not as much as they do for melody!). As an oldtimer I appreciate the efforts of MaNakkaal but he was never fully understood. Even now 'kaNakku' is a buzz word for Rasikas (me too!). Let us understand the principles and also experiment within the existing frameworks! Otherwise taaLa will remain static as it has been for the past 200 years while a number of new ragas have appeared and have enriched CM!

Love to hear other views too!

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Our CM is dominated by the melody while other forms of music pay more attention to rhythms (I am just citing the exotic african rhythms or even the complicated Western dance steps!).
What you wrote overall is fine that we should always push the frontiers but the above is interesting. Is that really true?

I always thought it is the opposite, in terms of sophistication, maturity and scholarliness, CM rhythm is quite a bit up there compared to others. ( you are right about the general perception of the lay listener, they listen for the melody almost taking the rhythm for granted ).

When I talk about CM to others, I always talk up rhythm and even make statement to the extent that 'the rhythmic structures in the thala and practice of drumming, the thani, is more advanced than in most other music and in many cases unparalleled. Is that over-selling? I am talking about comparing CM to others and not necessarily the artists within one system.

The reason I thought I will mention this is, things like different gathis for different adjacent beats, when overdone, definitely make things more complicated than what it already is. But I would think the objective is not complication or sophistication but rather artistry and aesthetics ( stating the obvious I suppose )

You brought up African drumming as an example of complexity. To me, that one sounds like an illustration of how to keep things simple.
They seem to adopt a layered approach: One set of drums layered on top others but all following pretty simple beating. Different sets of drum sounds are piled on top of each other, they weave in and out, sort of like a competition for getting in the front. The overall effect is great and mesmerizing, no doubt. I would put that in the league of ritualistic drumming where the group rhythm effect is achieved through simple individual lines.

This is all from just listening to a few such things and I do not know much about the technicalities of african drumming. And there are other african drumming that I have not had a chance to listen to. So you may have a point about those things.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

vk:

I was thinking more about common Rasikas and commn performers. The proof of indifference to rhythm is in the mass exodus during tani. Many performers do look for signs from mridangist to know when to start! I have seen some experts getting tripped on taaLam during tani. How many of us know where the eduppu comes?

African drumming can be quite complicated. Many tribes use them for communication and even messages get coded (eg., location of animal to be hunted) through drumming! But I am no expert except that I find it fascinating!

param
Posts: 255
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 14:19

Post by param »

Dear CML and VK
Many performers do look for signs from mridangist to know when to start! I have seen some experts getting tripped on taaLam during tani. How many of us know where the eduppu comes?
Let me be frank on this issue about edduppu - this is not at all difficult - all that it requires is a bit of alertness that all. I will in the future posts - explain all the terms requested (and more if they exist) and then will also post samples so as to make things easy for all of you to understand that edduppu is not at all a complicated issue.

African drumming - as VK says follow a simple pattern approach. CML - conveying messages through drumming - that calls for reproducing something that I heard over 15 years back. It seems over 60 - 70 years back, two thavil vidwans - I forget their names - will definitely post the same on Thursday - were known to practice thavil in the evenings sitting in two villages - and during this exercise they also used to exchange messages (in other words speak to each other using the Thavil).

One other such episode that I can recollect is of two thavil vidwans - one of whom had forgotten his shawl on the banks of a pond of a temple where he had gone to wash his feet - merely by playing the thavil tells his counterpart that he has forgotten it and in response, his counterpart replies saying that he will ask his disciple to fetch it - and verbally asks his disciple to fetch it. When the disciple abides, the first vidwan acknowledges it and thanx his counterpart. After the concert - the audience asked vidwan b - what had transpired to which he explains verbally that vidwan a had informed him by playing on the thavil that he had forgotten his shawl and he replied saying that the same would be fetched.

These things have existed in India too - only that today, the sense of art is slowly diminishing - everything has become a display of what one knows - the audience too have become lethargic to the performance - they do not wish to appreciate traditional form of music - melody and relaxation are the key. Traditional performance is losing out.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Thanks Param

We came away from 'anecdotes' but now getting back to some interesting anecdotes. That is very nice! It is no exaggeration when we say the mridangam talks in the hands of the expert vidvaan. Perhaps our scientists (CM oriented) should explore communication strategies for the speech-impaired using rhythm ideas! I recently saw the movie 'Captain MagaL' (starring Kushbu) where a musician who was held in hostage communicates his plight using the piano and a little girl (musically trained!) responds using the bicycle bell! Unfortunately the message is interpreted by the villain(Napolean I believe) who also was trained (by the Indian Army! (if they do three cheers to them!!) in the same language and foils their plans!

param
Posts: 255
Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 14:19

Post by param »

CML,

Actually speaking - over the years I have collected so much information that I often wonder what would have happened to me - if I were a computer. Especially since my "motherboard" cannot be replaced, no scope for putting in additional RAM (can chant the name of Lord Ram ofcourse) - additional HDDs - impossible (though additional wives definitely possible - which might turn out to be viruses, though)???

Then I revel at the wonder that God has created - the Human Being - what a wonderful creation - automatic upgradation as and when required, no downloads needed, no additional software required, everything possible - but happens only when the need arises.

I wish senior vidwans (I hope some of them are actually watching our postings - especially mine) contribute to our benefit.

Will keep posting anecdotes as and when they crop up!!!

Meenajee - Over to you

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear Mr. Param, (Of course I cannot claim myself a Vidwan)
I am a senior student nearing 70 years of age. As you desired, I would like to contribute some very rare knowledge of 'Talaprastara' to the young aspirants if they are truthfully interested to learn a rarest topic of our Indian Music. I have spent four decades of my life towards this topic and wrote three rare books which are treated as originals in the annals of our musical literature. This topic only gives out the authenticity of any rhythmical form of our universe. Are you interested truthfully to learn this newest topic which brings out all the rhythmical forms of the universe? amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 02 Oct 2006, 15:44, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

This topic only gives out the authenticity of any rhythmical form of our universe. Are you interested truthfully to learn this newest topic which brings out all the rhythmical forms of the universe? amsharma.
Sharmaji

There is a rhythm in eveerything in the Universe though we fail to detect most of them. We now glibly talk about business cycles, climatological cycles, circadian rhythms etc., Our CM tala exploits only a small segment of the cyclical structure which is easy to understand. I wish to ask you, is there an intuittive way of guessing the tala cycle?

For example let a singer adopt a particular tala in his mind and sing without showing the kriya angas (I also assume that there is no tala accompaniment to betray!). Is it possible to guess the tala just by listening to the singing? If so what is the technique?

hsuvarna
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

I read the following in the link http://sawf.org/newedit/edit01282002/musicarts1.asp. Eversince I am guessing to figure it out, with huge failures. My understanding from the following is
a) first we have to count syllables in the line.
b) Then we have to map it to nearest taala based on the count.
c) If it does not match the known taala count, then make it mishra jati.

Sri Akeella Sarma Gaaru, our brains are tuned to algoruithmic stuff after working on computers for years. So simple steps like this would help.

Happy VijayaDashami to all of you.
=========================
Finally, we present a pallavi sung by Voleti Venkateswarlu in Kalyani. The pallavi is parama dayakara varasugunalaya sri ramachandra - sita manohara charanu charanu and a cursory count of the syllables establishes the tala as misra jati tripuda (11 aksharas or 44 matras). The pallavi is elegantly constructed in decreasing counts (paramadaya = 6, karavara = 5, suguna = 4, laya = 3, sri = 2) before the aruti (the first half of the tala cycle) and increasing counts (sita = 4, manohara = 5, charanucharanu = 6) after the aruti:

http://www.sawf.org/audio/kalyani/voleti.ram
==================================

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

The syllable count for one Avartam is easily done. But the total count will not determine the tala uniquesly. The additional info is the emphasis on the syllables which one can guess from practice. Using them to parse one may be able to guess the tala approximately. Am I right Sharmaji ?
But the confusing part is the 'eDuppu'. How do we get it without a visual from the artiste. I agree, an algorithm will be quite helpful!

kiransurya
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Joined: 13 Dec 2005, 15:58

Post by kiransurya »

cmlover wrote:T
But the confusing part is the 'eDuppu'. How do we get it without a visual from the artiste. I agree, an algorithm will be quite helpful!
I always have trouble finding out the eduppu(unless I have the notation)

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear cmlover, As you wrote there is a rhythm in everything and that itself is intuitional. But, that is rhythm, which, in our terminology is ‘Laya’ but not Tala at all.Thus Laya is always intuitive but not Tala at all. So, thus, a person, immediately after listening to a song, intuitively follows the Laya (rhythm) of that song. This Laya, in our classical terminology, is Gati i.e., Trisra, Chaturashra, Khanda, Mishra & Sankeerna. But, the level of intuition of a person depends upon the level of his/her level of instinct. That is why, while many people are able to follow Chaturashra-gati, only few people can follow either Trisra or Khanda or Mishra-gatis (please note that there are 3 Trisras in one Sankeerna-gati). So, thus, as Laya is intuitive and Tala is intellective, anybody follows the Laya intuitively but cannot follow a Tala as its needs some intelligence. Thank you for initiating me into such an intelligent debate. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 04 Oct 2006, 07:33, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear Sri hsuvarna, I am very glad you have analysed the Pallavi extremely well. Keep it up. But, a small correction, Mishra-jati Triputa carries 11 Kriyas and 44 Aksharas only but not 11 Aksharas and 44 Matras. Please note that, as per Sangita Ratnakara, Matra always occupies the duration of almost one second and either Trisra of 3-units or Chaturashra of 4-units or Khanda of 5-units or Mishra of 7-units or Sankeerna of 9-units should be accommodated in this duration of one second only. The duration of any Kriya should not be elongated or shortend depending upon the constituent units of it. Even though there is no written proof for this, we have to follow the play of Mridangam only. For example, in a Mridangam thani, while the Mridangist goes on changing the different Gatis of his Thani the main artist will not elongate or shorten the duration of any of the Kriyas of his Tala whenever the Mridangist changes his Gati. By all this, it should be understood that all the Kriyas of any Tala should always carry the same duration without elongating or shortening any Kriya of that Tala. This is for kind information of all our musicians.amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 04 Oct 2006, 08:20, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear cmlover, The gati-unit count makes the matters easier than the syllable-count of a cycle of Tala. For example, while an artist sings 'Vatapiganapathim Bhaje-Hamsadhvani-Adi', starting from the first letter 'Va' of 'Vatapi', you can start counting the serial numbers of 'Chaturashra-gati-unit-counting' in terms of 1,2,3,4 and you can observe that you will finish counting number 8 of 'Chaturashra-gati-unit-counting' just before the artist starts the 'Va' of 'Vatapi' of the second repitition by which you can assume that the 2nd cycle of Tala starts. At the same time you can also assume that each cycle consists of 8 Chaturashra-gati-units and that the point where the 'Va' of 'Vatapi' starts is the eduppu. I don't think that you need a visual to make out this starting point. This Gati is instinctively and intuitively maintained by any person though the variety and level of gati-instinct defers from person to person i.e., a person may be able to follow Chaturashra-gati but not able to follow Trisra-gati and in the same manner a person may be able to follow a general-chaturashra-gati but not an intricate-chaturashra-gati. This has been my observation upon my students since many years. amsharma.

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