Create Carnatic Music notations online with this new sofware

To teach and learn Indian classical music
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vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think it should be useful for anyone learning - since the version of krithis you learn will mostly not tee up with what is in the books. So my hope is people can get the krithis from their pattu pusthakam typeset
I know a couple of 9 and 11 year olds who are learning music. I am thinking of referring your software to them and their parents. Not sure if they will be inclined to spend time on this. Let us see. From what I have seen them using, they look like photocopies from the ASP book. May be their teachers can get introduced to this and use it for lessons for which good notations do not exist or the notations are confusing/wrong.

mohan
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Post by mohan »

vasanthakokilam wrote:msakellaji's upcoming exhaustive gamaka notation may take the notational scheme to the new heights and in the process the bhava can come out as a by-product. If Arun so wishes, he can incorporate msakellaji's notaional scheme for gamaka into his software.
I am not familiar with Sri MSA's notational scheme but consider the following example:

1. I want to notate the gamakam for the very first Ni in the anupallavi of the Sri raga varnam( Sami Ninne)
2. The Ni commences somewhere near the P and moves up to N2
3. The notation will have to give the exact sruthi value (perhaps in cents) of the beginning note and the ending note
4. There will have to be some symbol to notate how fast the transition is (relative to the speed of rendtion) - maybe in beats per second

This is a simple example. A number of gamakas start at one point and swing to more than one other point - example the Ma in Sankarabharanam. The notation will need to provide the exact value of every absolute sruthi that the swara touches and the transition speed between every two sruthis.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Mohan, I understand and I see the complexities and near impossibilities involved. Akellaji is one of the, if not the, foremost expert at the CM gamakam exploratin, going beyond what the traditional texts specify. He had studied this subject quite extensively. I myself do not know the scope of his notational scheme yet.

I am not sure if any scheme needs to solve all the innumerable possibilities but a good 75% goes a long way. Still one has to learn from a teacher or atleast listen to recordings to get the full musical ideas but this should at least make it possible to notate the technicalities involved.

I do not mean to hurry Shri. Akellaji on what he had told us to expect in the coming months. Sir, please take your time.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

mohan wrote:1. I want to notate the gamakam for the very first Ni in the anupallavi of the Sri raga varnam( Sami Ninne)
2. The Ni commences somewhere near the P and moves up to N2
3. The notation will have to give the exact sruthi value (perhaps in cents) of the beginning note and the ending note
4. There will have to be some symbol to notate how fast the transition is (relative to the speed of rendtion) - maybe in beats per second
1. Hitting exact sruthi value to the cent is a impossibility unless programmed in computer. You can get pretty close within threshold, but once you get into "ideal cent values", you may trouble with that - even for some of the swarasthanams.
2. Even for this specific ni, there need not be one EXACT ideal pitch contour (i.e. exact start value to the cent, exact end value to the cent, exact rate of travel between). You can achieve the same ni with different sets of <start,end,rate> (albeit within some threshold).

I believe these are some of things Arvindh from Stanford found in his research. Atleast from my own forays (pitch detection software). I can confirm #1 to be certainly true. In general with gamakas, assigning ideal pitch level or pitch contour is just not matched in practice - it gets subjective and different musicians show different localized variations

I think in general you can indicate "basic shape" (i.e. starts from pa and oscillates between n2 and p or n2 and s etc.).

I think there is a lot of interpretative element in our music, which just cannot be "nullified" by providing a single, ideal interpretation - because that interpretative element allows people to have differing interpretations, giving it diversity of expression.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 19 Nov 2007, 06:34, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji,

For me with IE, the stayi dots and speed lines to show up in Print Preview as well as generated PDF. Which IE version are you using? (I am using 6.0). I did notice a few problems
1. The dots are big too big.
2. The tala markers are shifted down - to the lyric line. Now it still looks fine but that was not intended.

I am now thinking maybe there is some option in IE that perhaps I had turned on in mine - cant remember what it is. But maybe it is specific to the PDF print driver.

Here is the devi_nIyE_tuNai I generated on IE to PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?0ncnxgttyyj BTW, I used primopdf.

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I have uploaded some fixes

1. New song now generates Layout and Tala in right order.
2. Also selecting tisra adi in Assist form generates the correct tala name.
3. FullWidth should now work much better (it used to misalign things). I think this works welll for gitam and varnam. It should also work much better for krithi now although I think in general it may be performing better on FireFox. In IE, I find that it makes the output too wide for say Portrait that you may be forced to go LandScape. Not sure yet why - but this may be fixable.
4. Vk - had mention that using AssistForm to change Tala concatenates the directive with the next line. This was happening on IE (not on Firefox) and is now fixed.

VK - can you tell the example where changing from Adi to Tisra Adi gave the infinite loop? I tried for a couple of others and it didnt happen. I know this bug is there - but a specific situation where it always happens would help in fixing it - thx

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Which IE version are you using? (I am using 6.0). I did notice a few problems
IE 7 version
May be something in advanced setting -that is disabled I have to check
Last edited by Suji Ram on 19 Nov 2007, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arun. I verified that your fixes to the issues I found work fine. Thanks.
VK - can you tell the example where changing from Adi to Tisra Adi gave the infinite loop? I tried for a couple of others and it didnt happen. I know this bug is there - but a specific situation where it always happens would help in fixing it - thx
I deserve a brownie point for not giving up to repro this ;). I could not reproduce this first, then did some thing and it happened. Tried to retrace my steps but did not happen. After some playing around, finally hit upon these steps to reproduce this.

1) First create a song with krithi format, Adi Basically take all the default values and just enter a song name
2) S: s r g m p d n s s n d p m g r s s r g m p d n s and update
3) Change thalam to Tisra_Adi and update
4) Change the layout type from krithi to Varnam ( before: Layout: krithi,Compact, after: Layout: Varnam,Compact ) by manually changing it ( not using Assist )
5) click on Update and this should repro the problem

There may be other ways to get to this but this is what I just did.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

If anyone has the notation for Elavathara ( mukhari ), can you please typeset this using this program and share the results. This will be a good test case for me on the usefulness of notations. I have never learnt this song myself but have heard this song many times from multiple artists. This is also one of the first songs that got me interested in CM a long while back. I wil see how much melodic information is carried in the notation. As a side benefit, I want to see what the official or commonly notated/accepted eduppu for this song is ( and also the place where the various lines in the anupallavi and charanam begin) , I get conflicting results when I listen to the different versions. It fit an atheetha eduppu model for the beginning and a 1/2 eduppu for some lines in the anupallavi but I lisented to a Chembai version today which seems to be on samam. So, even if typesetting the notation is a long shot task, please let me know what the eduppu is to satisfy my current curiosity.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji - i see the problem on IE 7.0. I dont think it is a problem with background images - because it would affect the speed-lines (for higher speed swaras). I am seeing them being drawn - just the stayi markers are lost. I will try to see where the problem is

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 19 Nov 2007, 20:58, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thanks vk.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji - It IS the background images and colors setting.

1. Tools => Internet Options
2. Go to Advanced Tag/Page.
3. Under the list, look under Printing category. Make sure the Print background colors and images setting is checked.

It works better but not perfect and the Print Preview page on IE is dog dog slow. It is laughable. The browser can draw the page in 1 second but print preview takes many seconds.. I am not an MS basher but sometimes these nimwits just cant do anything right! IE 6 works better. IE 7 is a pig and regresses in areas. I hear the same complaints about Vista vs. XP. They are truly turning out to be a necessary, unavoidable evil :(

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I am not an MS basher but sometimes these nimwits just cant do anything right! .
:D
I'll send this to folks at MS. They are all over my place....


BTW thanks. I was there looking at the advanced option but somehow my eyes missed seeing the printing...option
Last edited by Suji Ram on 19 Nov 2007, 23:36, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

If anyone has the notation for Elavathara ( mukhari ),
Does anyone have a link where I can hear this song?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~hariharan/55-Mukhari/

It has ARI's (#13) and vk herself ;-) (#48)

ARI's version from what I could make out: starts at samam for pallavi. Both anupallavi and charanam - I think it may be 0.75 - between 2nd and 3rd beat if putting (fast) 2-kalai. May be it is 0.5 and I just put it wrong.

(nv)vk : seems to similar - samam for pallavi. Anupallavi seems to start at 0.5

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

thanks Arun,
Both the versions are very good.
These did not come up in the search I did at that site.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

That NCV rendition was the one that got me interested in listening to CM. The melisma at the end of each section (P, AP, C ) used to tug at something deep and meaningful in me - specifically, that downward sweep and then up through the characteristic mukhari phrases. Compared to other ragas, most singers seem to do that for Mukhari a lot more frequently and definitely for Elavathara, much to my delight. If I can get to play that right, that will be a big personal wow!!

The same melismatic singing which is so attractive melodically wreaks havoc with my tala keeping ;)

I keep getting different results when I listen to the NCV version. ARI version is confusing as well since the mridangamist does not end on the 1 st beat.

Check me on these things wrt to the NCV version.

1) The second line of AP starts a beat later than the first line of AP.

2) The line that starts with 'Tyagarajudu..' is prototypical of a 1/2 eduppu. If you go with that, when NCV wraps around to the Pallavi line it falls before the Samam.

If these are not right, then I will have to spend more quality time keeping thala for this song.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I listened to it another N number of times and this is what seems to be happening. Please check if I got these right.

1) The second line of AP starts a beat later than the first line of AP.

2) The charanam begins in 1/2 eduppu but when the same charanam line is repeated, it is at 1 1/2.

3) The second line of charanam ( which wraps back to the melody of the AP ) is either samam or before samam.

4) The line that starts with 'Tyagarajudu..' is actually at 1 1/2 (though the pattern seems to fit the prototypical 1/2 eduppu ). This also fits with the anupallavi structure where the second line starts at 1 1/2 whereas the first line starts at 1/2.

5) When NCV wraps around to the Pallavi line it falls on the Samam as it did at the beginning of the song. Everything fits together well.

Having said all this, is the thala Adi 2Kalai with the whole pallavi just 2 avarthanams. It seems to make sense here. Then I have to redo this whole thing. If it is, this may shed some light on a question I had about what really makes a 2Kalai Adi as opposed to 2 cylces of Adi...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vk -To me the second line (rAgaratna) starts at 1/2 (2-kalai) too. The first time it is sada rAga (sada starts at samam).

The first line also there only - she just takes it a fraction later i.e. post beat but one can say she does take it 0.75 (or 1.5). It is not like 1/2 one time and 1 1/2 next time. It is 1/2 and 3/4 (2kalai) or 1 and 1.5 (1kalai)

But if it helps, i do have the notation (i can scan and email to you and you can try your hand on the software :)), and it shows 2 cycles for the pallavi (typical for Adi) - per that I can comfortably put Adi 2 kalai. But I can simply choose to beat "every alternate" one and make it look like Adi 1 kalai. But the notation does seem to indicate 2-kalai (8 swaras per akshara). But if you think about it, once you know the start and end of the tala cycle, you can view it as either 1-kalai or 2-kalai. It simply would affect the relative duration of each swara w.r.t the akshara. So almost like same melody - simply different frame of reference.

Also from the notation I have, pallavi is at samam, and both anupallavi and charanam are 1/2 after the beat (i.e. after a ; - and when 8 swaras are shown to fit in 1 akshara)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Nov 2007, 10:24, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

once you know the start and end of the tala cycle, you can view it as either 1-kalai or 2-kalai
That is true. In my case, I did not know that and initially I was keeping the thala as if the pallavi is 4 avartha. Somehow things did not seem right but with 2 Kalai ( meaning 2 avarthas for pallavi ), everything fit together nicely. So there is something there that is feelable, something that makes it natural that helped me assign the 2 avarthas to the pallavi rather than 4 avarthas. I guess this is a case of a reasonably fast paced song in 2 kalai whereas the norm for 2 kalai is a slow nannu palima like rhythmic structure. Having said all this, I still can not find what is rhythmically common between nannu palimpa and elavathara that makes both 2 kalai. Our Balaji mentioned something about 'Asu'. If I remember right these are rhythmic prototypes used by the great composers. I wonder if the thing that makes it a 2 Kalai is a specific kind of Asu. ( I may be totally off base here since I am wildly specualting ).

Arun, I will focus on the Charanam lines later, but do you agree that in the Anupallavi, the second line of the anupallavi ( both repetitions ) start 1/2 a beat ( in 2 kalai ) later than the first line? I am not sure whether you were referring to the charanam or anu pallavi in your response. In either case she is on the beat since the song stress falls on the beat, so no issues there. I wonder how the notation you have calls out the second line of the anu pallavi.

I will take you up on your offer to scan and email the notation to me. I will give it a shot to typeset it with your software. May be it can be a collaborative effort. I will do the base work and some of you can fix it and may be add the gamama symbols.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:. So there is something there that is feelable, something that makes it natural that helped me assign the 2 avarthas to the pallavi rather than 4 avarthas.
It could be how the mridangist is playing AND also how the song syllable emphasis falls on. If playing sarvalaghu, I am guessing that for this krithi in 2-kalai the emphasis would be typicallu spaced further apart i.e ta-ka-di-mi in 2-kalai (1 akshara) would translate to ta-ka-di-mi ta-ka-di-mi (2 aksharas). Of course this need not be always the case, as one can play ta-ka-di-mi-ta-ka-ju-Nu for that 1 akshara in 2-kalai, and also play it realy slow as in ta-ka di-mi for those 2 aksharas in 1-kalai, but I think the norm wouldnt be so and so on an average, the emphasis for the 2-kalai would be spaced further apart. Same reasoning for song.

The key is in general for Adi, 1 cycle per HALF of pallavi (and anupallavi, and also half of each line of charanam. You can identify the halves musically - but you can also use the prAsa of the start of the halves. Here you ElavatAra vs. Emi - the elongated form the same vowel (consonant may be precede on one, or different consonants for both - still prAsa. The same vowel in the same length is key. I learned this from our Drs). Of course on top you may also have the same 2nd consonant - i.e. dviakshara prAsa. So in anupallavi: Alamu vs. pAlana. In caranam, you have yOgulu vs. rOgula, and rAga vs. (tyAga)rAju. Note for the last line, the word is tyAgarAju but the prAsa is on rAju - so word beginnings dont necessary start the line musically.

Anyway one you get the halves, for Adi it is generally 1 cycle per half. for rUpaka 2, or 4 in cApu style. For khaNDa/mIsra cApu - 2

I will email you the scanned notation this evening if possible.

> but do you agree that in the Anupallavi, the second line of the anupallavi ( both repetitions ) start 1/2 a beat ( in 2 kalai ) later than the
> first line.
Yes.

> I wonder how the notation you have calls out the second line of the anu pallavi.
Assuming this is intentional (i mean as opposed to on the fly improvisation). It would be something like that

Code: Select all

Layout: Varnam,FullWidth
Tala: Adi2Kalai
DefaultSpeed: 1
S: ;  ( , n )  , d  p     =  | =  = | = =
L: ;    , pA   _ la nE    _    _  _   _ _
(Note: the n-d-p I am not even sure - just blind and not well thought out guesses. Consider these as just fillers. Only the initial pause is in question here)

So the first pause is 1.25 aksharas - ; for first and the , in higher speed is 1/4th the next akshara which is (, n ) d. This is of course if you count only 8 aksharas for 2-kalai even though we beat twice for each akshara (i think we beat twice because the time of each akshara is lengthier and beating it twice allows us to keep track of time better). If you instead take it as 16, then that first pause would be 2.5 aksharas.

Note: I think in the typesetter, the Varnam vs Krithi may have more repurcusions than I intended particular w.r.t 2-kalai. For example with above I see what I have notated spans 1 avarthana in typesetter. If I switch to Krithi, it should still remain so. But it does not. So something is getting changed underneath and may be this is what you found in your initial testing. To be honest, I also added 2-kalai towards the very end and so it was not that rigorously tested

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Nov 2007, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

good discussion on tala keeping eddupu etc. So much more than just notations.

Will be interesting for me to see the notations as well while listening to "ElAvatAra"

But this kriti itself is complicated compared to other muKhAri's I have heard.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I have the text of the kriti slightly different from what VK and ARI sing

P: ElAvatAra mettukontivi EmikAraNamu rAmudai

A: Alamu sEyuTakA ayOdhyA pAlana jEyuTakA O rAghava

C: yOgulanu jUcuTaka bhava rOgulanu brOchuTaka shata
rAgaratnamAlikalu racincina tyAgarAjunaku varamosangutakA

Would like like to know the correct text. May be vgv can help here.

Never mind found it here
http://rasikas.org/wiki/elavatara
Last edited by Suji Ram on 21 Nov 2007, 01:06, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arun for the explanations. That helps. I will look at the scanned image and work on it over the next few days.

Suji, since I/we are going to work on Elavathara notations using the typesetter, all the discussions around the song/thala itself can now be considered as a prelude to that ;)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Now talking about tala, it would be nice to have indications for laghuvu and dhrutamu too.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji - that is a bit hard to do. Its easy(ier) to do it at first page - but we need it automatically at each page (like a header). Not impossible, but not trivial.

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Now that I am working on creating "new' from the scratch I found this-

I prefer selecting size 24 for the notations in telugu script ,since the print out is nice in large letter. However the gamaka symbols don't change in size.

Another thing is- we have to hit the space bar after every letter -otherwise those letter don't make it in the final output and also causes shift in notation
-may be we have to live with that?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 21 Nov 2007, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

suji - some gamakasymbols are images and currently are not scalable (besides scaling usually ruins). I was thinking of eventually having 2 or 3 sets of images (i.e. small, medium, large).

I have a directive for changing the size of the text based gamakas (e.g. S(w) means w is shown) but not currently enabled. I will enable it once I test it a bit more.

> Spaces after every letter
You mean swara? Yes - you have to as this is critical at this point in being able associate lyrics to swaras.
Last edited by arunk on 21 Nov 2007, 20:53, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji,

I uploaded the following:
1. I introduced GamakaPrefs directive for controlling the font size (and color) of text based gamakas. Atleast with larger telugu font, if you use just text based gamakas, this should provide some relief.
2. Enhanced manual to include Lyrics, LanguageFont and GamakaPrefs directive. Also noted about printing on IE7.

Arun

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks Arun for the updates. Will try it out.
I am only beginning to understand the different gamakas. Wish there is a site where I can hear each gamaka..


And with the laghu and drutam we can have it just at the first page.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 21 Nov 2007, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

The SSP gamakas are very vIna oriented. The ravai, orikkai etc. are all explained only in terms of how to play in vIna. I thought akella-garu is doing something in this regard - i.e. demonstrate all the samples.

My guess is people also just make up their own :) Atleast I do. For example, I like the tickmark for nokku/emphasis like ga in s-r-g or abhOgi or ni in p-n-s of SrI. I dont know but it seems to fit. But jArus and kampitas atleast can be standardized.

Arun

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

My guess is people also just make up their own Atleast I do.
Me too. After many years, I do not understand half of my own gamaka notations ;)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

my lack of gamaka notation understanding is more so because my lessons were taught without notations(kritis). I payed close attention to how my teacher would play and learnt. Never asked her-offcourse as a kid how would I know what to ask :)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Arun,
Something that seems to have happened recently is-
the letters in telugu script are getting distorted. Specially the vowels "i" , "e", o, are showing distorted.
For eg:
Ri shows as Ra with a "i" matra attached to it. Also with Ni and so forth. It is also happening with the lyric.
I thought I accidently hit kannada, but then kannada script isn't like that either :)

Even your example in telugu- nI vAda is showing that way.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 22 Nov 2007, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji,

I did not change anything in this regard. Same browser/PC? Did you change font or perhaps browser is using a different one? If possible please try on Firefox also to see if you are getting the same.

I tried now (albeit on my mac on Safari), and I may be mistaken, but it looks ok?
http://www.sendspace.com/file/yjujvf

Input was something like
Layout: Varnam,FullWidth
Tala: Adi
Language: Telugu
SwaraPrefs: 20
LyricPrefs: 20
S: s r g m
L: ra rA ri rI

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 22 Nov 2007, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Here is the typesetter input for Elavathara Pallavi based on the book notation Arun sent me.

Code: Select all

 Layout: Krithi,Compact
Tala: Adi2Kalai
Heading: "ElAvathAra - MukhAri - Thyagaraja - Adi",bold,underline,14
S: p d s , , ,  ( d s r s n , d , p , , , )   p m n n | d p d p m g r s | , , r m r m p ,
L: E _ _ _ _ _  lA _ _ _ _ _ va _ _ _ _ _  thA _ _ _  ra - me - t tu _ _ _ _ ko m ti _ vO _ 
S: , , p n d , p , ( p m g , r , , , ) r s r g | s , , , , , s ,   | , , s , r m p ,
L: _ _ E _ _ mi _ _ kA _ _ _ _ _ _ _  ra . Na . mO _ _ _ _ rA _ _ _ _ mu - Dai _ _ _
Some observations.

1) It is a bit frustrating that the book notations are not precise. If I blindly copy the notations to Arun's program, the program detects the basic inaccuracies in the book notation. Now one has to reconcile it if one know the song or can check a recording. The latter is what I did. Given my own limitations, it took 3 or 4 tries to get it and the result is as above. I am still not sure if this is right. I based it on the notation for the swaras but I had to make some judgement calls on the alignments and also borrowing angas from two sangathis and merging it into one.

The potential inaccuracies in book notations is what is going to slow people down and may be cause some frustration. That frustration has nothing to do with the tool. In fact the tool forces you not to ignore those notational inaccuracies and make you focus on counting the swaras and making sure there are enough there in the book notation for each anga and if not make some judgement calls on where to insert them.

(Treat the above input to the typesetter as a learning exercise for using the tool. Also, do not focus on the correctness of the lyrics, the ARI and NCV versions seem to be slightly different, the notations that Arun sent me is a bit different and our Wiki page is slightly different.)

2) Aligning Lyrics to notations is a bit hard. May be I am doing it the hard way. When there is a speed variation on the swara line with ( ), the lyrics line has to provide double the gaps. This again is due to my limited knowledge of the capabilities of the tool.

3) I am confused about how to enter the number of swaras for Adi2Kalai, though it seemed to have come out right with 32 swaras per avarthanam. I first thought I need to enter 64. Arun, when you get a chance, please describe how this all works, what is the relationship between 2 Kalai, default speed and krith format etc. Basicaly, is 2Kalai a short hand for a speed or it has its own built in logic.

4) I changed the layout type to Varnam for the above specification ( with Adi 2 Kalai ). I am not sure if it did it right. Arun, this is something for you to check. If you think it is coming out right, I will try again.

I am not doing beyond the Pallavi for now.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

vk,

lyrics NEED NOT align with swaras in input. But of course we want them that way so that the raw input looks fine. I do have an "assist" in mind for that which I hope to implement (didnt want to delay initial release for that). Basiclly a button that will do the alignment for the swaras and their associated lyrics. So you enter stuff without worrying about alignment and then you click this button and it will do the alignment for you.

Adi2kalai vs. Adi: Like I mentioned earlier Adi2Kalai is sort of not solid - I myself have doubts about how exactly the differences manifest in notation :) I need to get it clarified from some experts here. At this point, I will note that
1. For Varnam layout, Adi2Kalai and Adi are same - this explains why when you changed your krithi layout to varnam, the output looked different.
2. In the tool, for Adi, the aksharas are divided like 4 + 2 + 2
3. In the tool, for Adi2kalai, they are divided like 8 + 4 + 4

Like I mentioned earlier, once you know the avarthana boundaries, it looks like one can treat it either way and thus I have some confusion/questions regarding representing it in notation.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Nov 2007, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arun. I read the Lyrics section of your document again and got better clarification also. I did not realize before that the speed specifiers '(' ')' do not matter for lyrics line though I still got it right before just by playing around with it.

I also changed the input to be Tamil compatible and I have updated my post above with the new input. The appearance is a bit better now on the lyrics line since I have changed the '-' to '_" so there is less clutter in the output.

Don't worry too much about the Assist for the lyrics alignment. I think it will be useful for maintaining and changing the input lines if they are aligned on the input side but my initial impressions were due not knowing stuff about the tool fully.
2. In the tool, for Adi, the aksharas are divided like 4 + 2 + 2
3. In the tool, for Adi2kalai, they are divided like 8 + 4 + 4
Please check if my mental model of this is correct. I do not need to know the exact algorithm used in the program but it is good to have the overall idea when we enter the input based on the expected typeset output

1) What we enter as swaras and Dhirga , from a time point of view, are mathrais ( one, two or four mathrais per swara ).

2) ( Assuming I do not use 'sa' .'ri' and ';', ) mathrais per swara is based on the default speed. 4 mathrais duration per entered swara in 'first speed' ( defaultspeed 0 ), 2 mathrai duration per swara in 'second speed' ( defaultspeed 1 ), 1 mathrai duration per swara in 'third speed' ( default speed 2 ), and

3) Calculate the mathrais using the space separated swara and dhirga counts and the multiplier above. Let us say it is M.

4) Then number of beats is calculated as : Chatusra Gathi Adi M/4, For chathsra gathi 2KalaiAdi M/8. For thisra gathi Adi it is M/3 etc. based on the thala specification.

5) Then apply the anga markers as per the specified thala definition.

Is this correct?

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Don't worry too much about the Assist for the lyrics alignment. I think it will be useful for maintaining and changing the input lines if they are aligned on the input side but my initial impressions were due not knowing stuff about the tool fully.
Ok. I think it will be useful. But in time :)

What we enter as swaras and Dhirga , from a time point of view, are mathrais ( one, two or four mathrais per swara ).
Yes - 1, 2, 4 for catusragati, and thus 1,3,6 for tisra gati etc.

2) ( Assuming I do not use 'sa' .'ri' and ';', ) mathrais per swara is based on the default speed. 4 mathrais duration per entered swara in 'first speed' ( defaultspeed 0 ), 2 mathrai duration per swara in 'second speed' ( defaultspeed 1 ), 1 mathrai duration per swara in 'third speed' ( default speed 2 ),
Yes, again for catusragati.
3) Calculate the mathrais using the space separated swara and dhirga counts and the multiplier above. Let us say it is M.
4) Then number of beats is calculated as : Chatusra Gathi Adi M/4, For chathsra gathi 2KalaiAdi M/8. For thisra gathi Adi it is M/3 etc. based on the thala specification.

5) Then apply the anga markers as per the specified thala definition.
Is this correct?
Maybe so - not sure. What I do is convert/represent each matra as a relative duration of akshara. So 1/4 (speed = 2). 1/2 (speed = 1) or 1 (speed = 0). You then start adding and whenever the duration matches the duration of anga (in aksharas - so 4 aksharas for the laghu of Adi), you apply the marker.

I think it is better to think in terms of how long the matra is to the akshara as opposed to how many matras per akshara. So you could potentially have 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 - not all supported now of course :)! The M/4 approach would place the shortest matra as 1/4. The other does not place it - *although*, right now it is 1/8 but that is for different reasons

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Nov 2007, 06:31, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, thanks Arun.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

I have uploaded a new version. This has

1. A fix for Adi2Kalai. Previously in Varnam format Adi2Kalai was same as Adi. I think this is wrong. Besides older ninnukori was wrong in 2 ways - the tala avarthana as shown was 1/2 of what was in the book (main reason why I thought that approach was wrong). Also the words were wrong :). Now Adi-2 Kalai 8+4+4 in krithis and varnams. To render Adi tala varnams, it would be better to use Adi2Kalai. Note that for krithis (may be not all) you can sort of swing both ways i.e. be able to represent Adi2Kalai or Adi, and change DefaultSpeed accordingly and get very similar layout.
2. I have introduced _ (single underscore) and __ (double underscore) as a way of indicating "empty swaras" in the swara line. This can be used to "indent" the swara line by the eduppu. I have explained a bit about this in the manual (under Swara Directive). I dont know how many people will use it, but I have got feedback that this is useful (and it was easy to implement)

Please let me know if there are any regressions because of this. I think this should not except if you had varnams with tala Adi2Kalai and were ok with the fact it actually generated Adi 1-kalai :)


Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Nov 2007, 09:36, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I tried the Varnam layout Adi2Kalai. It works fine. Thanks. No regressions encountered in my limited use after that update.

gobilalitha
Posts: 2056
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:12

Post by gobilalitha »

dear arun. with my very poor knowledge of computer applicationsand music notations, I feel very guilty that I have not been to appreciate the wonderful work you are doing . my occupancy with computer is just for sending mails and to hear good music . may GOD bless you with more and more such achievements gobilalitha

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Suji,

I did not change anything in this regard. Same browser/PC? Did you change font or perhaps browser is using a different one? If possible please try on Firefox also to see if you are getting the same.
Arun,
I have this problem with Firefox. It is fine with IE. I could't figure out what I need to change in fonts in the settings in FF. Now I realise that the problem exists after seeing Ramakriya postings in another the thread in all the languages using transliteration software.

I usually use IE 7.0 at home so shouldn't be a problem working with notation editor.
if you can tell me how to fix it in FF it would be fine though for future.

Meanwhile... I am working on getting some varnams in malayamarutham , CakravAkam etc.. and kritis tranferred from a battered copy in telugu which needs a lot of attention before they become unreadable.

I think this is a great software for learners and dabblers (as well as composers) as it is a sort of exercise while learning. It is time-consuming in the beginning but when you get the knack of handling it becomes easier.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

suji - is it this?

From my transliterator page http://arunk.freepgs.com/cmtranslit/cmt ... cheme.html :

Note:: This web-page contains characters in Devanagiri, Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam. If they do not display correctly, then you need to install proper fonts on your computer. On Firefox, if the Indian language characters do appear but are in the wrong order, please follow instructions given in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ng_support
Last edited by arunk on 28 Nov 2007, 00:19, edited 1 time in total.

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks Arun,
problem is fixed now.
probably someone shifted to east asian...
Last edited by Suji Ram on 28 Nov 2007, 01:03, edited 1 time in total.

gn.sn42
Posts: 396
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56

Post by gn.sn42 »

A potential large-scale user?

Excerpt from rasikapriya post:
She has written down all the compositions with detailed notations, structure with pertininent information like Ragam, Talam and Chitta swaram. She wants to print these and bring it out in a book format... Are there any softwares available with which i can myself put all these Compositions with the notations into a soft copy easily?

The original post is accessible to rasikapriya members at http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ra ... sage/16437

hemaflute
Posts: 15
Joined: 10 Nov 2006, 23:33

Post by hemaflute »

was looking out for just somesuch thingi.. very excited to hv found this.. God, you must hv spent ages making this. wl use this and let you know. Thanks in advance.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

thanks gn.sn42 and hemaflute.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

I do not know how many people here use this software, but for those of you, just wanted to inform that last night I released the next version - version 1.1. You find information about the new features in this release at http://arunk.freepgs.com/wordpress/cm-t ... lease-v11/

Also I have "redressed" by arunk.freepgs.com website a couple of weeks ago: http://arunk.freepgs.com . It now follows a "blog" like format and so you can leave feedback (or ask questions) on various topics on the website itself.

Note that I also updated the transliteration scheme and transliterator to version 1.1. You can find information about it at http://arunk.freepgs.com/wordpress/cm-t ... lease-v11/ . The big change is support for the "grantha Sa" character i.e. the one for Siva Sakthi (the one you find in Slokam books).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 27 Feb 2008, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.

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