Create Carnatic Music notations online with this new sofware

To teach and learn Indian classical music
arunk
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#51

Post by arunk » 21 Nov 2007, 03:15

suji - that is a bit hard to do. Its easy(ier) to do it at first page - but we need it automatically at each page (like a header). Not impossible, but not trivial.

Arun
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Suji Ram
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#52

Post by Suji Ram » 21 Nov 2007, 13:07

Now that I am working on creating "new' from the scratch I found this-

I prefer selecting size 24 for the notations in telugu script ,since the print out is nice in large letter. However the gamaka symbols don't change in size.

Another thing is- we have to hit the space bar after every letter -otherwise those letter don't make it in the final output and also causes shift in notation
-may be we have to live with that?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 21 Nov 2007, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#53

Post by arunk » 21 Nov 2007, 20:52

suji - some gamakasymbols are images and currently are not scalable (besides scaling usually ruins). I was thinking of eventually having 2 or 3 sets of images (i.e. small, medium, large).

I have a directive for changing the size of the text based gamakas (e.g. S(w) means w is shown) but not currently enabled. I will enable it once I test it a bit more.

> Spaces after every letter
You mean swara? Yes - you have to as this is critical at this point in being able associate lyrics to swaras.
Last edited by arunk on 21 Nov 2007, 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#54

Post by arunk » 21 Nov 2007, 22:34

Suji,

I uploaded the following:
1. I introduced GamakaPrefs directive for controlling the font size (and color) of text based gamakas. Atleast with larger telugu font, if you use just text based gamakas, this should provide some relief.
2. Enhanced manual to include Lyrics, LanguageFont and GamakaPrefs directive. Also noted about printing on IE7.

Arun
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Suji Ram
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#55

Post by Suji Ram » 21 Nov 2007, 23:27

Thanks Arun for the updates. Will try it out.
I am only beginning to understand the different gamakas. Wish there is a site where I can hear each gamaka..


And with the laghu and drutam we can have it just at the first page.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 21 Nov 2007, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#56

Post by arunk » 21 Nov 2007, 23:40

The SSP gamakas are very vIna oriented. The ravai, orikkai etc. are all explained only in terms of how to play in vIna. I thought akella-garu is doing something in this regard - i.e. demonstrate all the samples.

My guess is people also just make up their own :) Atleast I do. For example, I like the tickmark for nokku/emphasis like ga in s-r-g or abhOgi or ni in p-n-s of SrI. I dont know but it seems to fit. But jArus and kampitas atleast can be standardized.

Arun
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vasanthakokilam
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#57

Post by vasanthakokilam » 21 Nov 2007, 23:44

My guess is people also just make up their own Atleast I do.
Me too. After many years, I do not understand half of my own gamaka notations ;)
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Suji Ram
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#58

Post by Suji Ram » 22 Nov 2007, 00:09

my lack of gamaka notation understanding is more so because my lessons were taught without notations(kritis). I payed close attention to how my teacher would play and learnt. Never asked her-offcourse as a kid how would I know what to ask :)
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Suji Ram
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#59

Post by Suji Ram » 22 Nov 2007, 04:02

Arun,
Something that seems to have happened recently is-
the letters in telugu script are getting distorted. Specially the vowels "i" , "e", o, are showing distorted.
For eg:
Ri shows as Ra with a "i" matra attached to it. Also with Ni and so forth. It is also happening with the lyric.
I thought I accidently hit kannada, but then kannada script isn't like that either :)

Even your example in telugu- nI vAda is showing that way.
Last edited by Suji Ram on 22 Nov 2007, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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#60

Post by arunk » 22 Nov 2007, 20:40

Suji,

I did not change anything in this regard. Same browser/PC? Did you change font or perhaps browser is using a different one? If possible please try on Firefox also to see if you are getting the same.

I tried now (albeit on my mac on Safari), and I may be mistaken, but it looks ok?
http://www.sendspace.com/file/yjujvf

Input was something like
Layout: Varnam,FullWidth
Tala: Adi
Language: Telugu
SwaraPrefs: 20
LyricPrefs: 20
S: s r g m
L: ra rA ri rI

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 22 Nov 2007, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#61

Post by vasanthakokilam » 24 Nov 2007, 01:53

Here is the typesetter input for Elavathara Pallavi based on the book notation Arun sent me.

Code: Select all

 Layout: Krithi,Compact
Tala: Adi2Kalai
Heading: "ElAvathAra - MukhAri - Thyagaraja - Adi",bold,underline,14
S: p d s , , ,  ( d s r s n , d , p , , , )   p m n n | d p d p m g r s | , , r m r m p ,
L: E _ _ _ _ _  lA _ _ _ _ _ va _ _ _ _ _  thA _ _ _  ra - me - t tu _ _ _ _ ko m ti _ vO _ 
S: , , p n d , p , ( p m g , r , , , ) r s r g | s , , , , , s ,   | , , s , r m p ,
L: _ _ E _ _ mi _ _ kA _ _ _ _ _ _ _  ra . Na . mO _ _ _ _ rA _ _ _ _ mu - Dai _ _ _
Some observations.

1) It is a bit frustrating that the book notations are not precise. If I blindly copy the notations to Arun's program, the program detects the basic inaccuracies in the book notation. Now one has to reconcile it if one know the song or can check a recording. The latter is what I did. Given my own limitations, it took 3 or 4 tries to get it and the result is as above. I am still not sure if this is right. I based it on the notation for the swaras but I had to make some judgement calls on the alignments and also borrowing angas from two sangathis and merging it into one.

The potential inaccuracies in book notations is what is going to slow people down and may be cause some frustration. That frustration has nothing to do with the tool. In fact the tool forces you not to ignore those notational inaccuracies and make you focus on counting the swaras and making sure there are enough there in the book notation for each anga and if not make some judgement calls on where to insert them.

(Treat the above input to the typesetter as a learning exercise for using the tool. Also, do not focus on the correctness of the lyrics, the ARI and NCV versions seem to be slightly different, the notations that Arun sent me is a bit different and our Wiki page is slightly different.)

2) Aligning Lyrics to notations is a bit hard. May be I am doing it the hard way. When there is a speed variation on the swara line with ( ), the lyrics line has to provide double the gaps. This again is due to my limited knowledge of the capabilities of the tool.

3) I am confused about how to enter the number of swaras for Adi2Kalai, though it seemed to have come out right with 32 swaras per avarthanam. I first thought I need to enter 64. Arun, when you get a chance, please describe how this all works, what is the relationship between 2 Kalai, default speed and krith format etc. Basicaly, is 2Kalai a short hand for a speed or it has its own built in logic.

4) I changed the layout type to Varnam for the above specification ( with Adi 2 Kalai ). I am not sure if it did it right. Arun, this is something for you to check. If you think it is coming out right, I will try again.

I am not doing beyond the Pallavi for now.
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arunk
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#62

Post by arunk » 24 Nov 2007, 03:08

vk,

lyrics NEED NOT align with swaras in input. But of course we want them that way so that the raw input looks fine. I do have an "assist" in mind for that which I hope to implement (didnt want to delay initial release for that). Basiclly a button that will do the alignment for the swaras and their associated lyrics. So you enter stuff without worrying about alignment and then you click this button and it will do the alignment for you.

Adi2kalai vs. Adi: Like I mentioned earlier Adi2Kalai is sort of not solid - I myself have doubts about how exactly the differences manifest in notation :) I need to get it clarified from some experts here. At this point, I will note that
1. For Varnam layout, Adi2Kalai and Adi are same - this explains why when you changed your krithi layout to varnam, the output looked different.
2. In the tool, for Adi, the aksharas are divided like 4 + 2 + 2
3. In the tool, for Adi2kalai, they are divided like 8 + 4 + 4

Like I mentioned earlier, once you know the avarthana boundaries, it looks like one can treat it either way and thus I have some confusion/questions regarding representing it in notation.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Nov 2007, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#63

Post by vasanthakokilam » 24 Nov 2007, 04:15

Thanks Arun. I read the Lyrics section of your document again and got better clarification also. I did not realize before that the speed specifiers '(' ')' do not matter for lyrics line though I still got it right before just by playing around with it.

I also changed the input to be Tamil compatible and I have updated my post above with the new input. The appearance is a bit better now on the lyrics line since I have changed the '-' to '_" so there is less clutter in the output.

Don't worry too much about the Assist for the lyrics alignment. I think it will be useful for maintaining and changing the input lines if they are aligned on the input side but my initial impressions were due not knowing stuff about the tool fully.
2. In the tool, for Adi, the aksharas are divided like 4 + 2 + 2
3. In the tool, for Adi2kalai, they are divided like 8 + 4 + 4
Please check if my mental model of this is correct. I do not need to know the exact algorithm used in the program but it is good to have the overall idea when we enter the input based on the expected typeset output

1) What we enter as swaras and Dhirga , from a time point of view, are mathrais ( one, two or four mathrais per swara ).

2) ( Assuming I do not use 'sa' .'ri' and ';', ) mathrais per swara is based on the default speed. 4 mathrais duration per entered swara in 'first speed' ( defaultspeed 0 ), 2 mathrai duration per swara in 'second speed' ( defaultspeed 1 ), 1 mathrai duration per swara in 'third speed' ( default speed 2 ), and

3) Calculate the mathrais using the space separated swara and dhirga counts and the multiplier above. Let us say it is M.

4) Then number of beats is calculated as : Chatusra Gathi Adi M/4, For chathsra gathi 2KalaiAdi M/8. For thisra gathi Adi it is M/3 etc. based on the thala specification.

5) Then apply the anga markers as per the specified thala definition.

Is this correct?
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arunk
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#64

Post by arunk » 24 Nov 2007, 06:31

vasanthakokilam wrote:Don't worry too much about the Assist for the lyrics alignment. I think it will be useful for maintaining and changing the input lines if they are aligned on the input side but my initial impressions were due not knowing stuff about the tool fully.
Ok. I think it will be useful. But in time :)

What we enter as swaras and Dhirga , from a time point of view, are mathrais ( one, two or four mathrais per swara ).
Yes - 1, 2, 4 for catusragati, and thus 1,3,6 for tisra gati etc.

2) ( Assuming I do not use 'sa' .'ri' and ';', ) mathrais per swara is based on the default speed. 4 mathrais duration per entered swara in 'first speed' ( defaultspeed 0 ), 2 mathrai duration per swara in 'second speed' ( defaultspeed 1 ), 1 mathrai duration per swara in 'third speed' ( default speed 2 ),
Yes, again for catusragati.
3) Calculate the mathrais using the space separated swara and dhirga counts and the multiplier above. Let us say it is M.
4) Then number of beats is calculated as : Chatusra Gathi Adi M/4, For chathsra gathi 2KalaiAdi M/8. For thisra gathi Adi it is M/3 etc. based on the thala specification.

5) Then apply the anga markers as per the specified thala definition.
Is this correct?
Maybe so - not sure. What I do is convert/represent each matra as a relative duration of akshara. So 1/4 (speed = 2). 1/2 (speed = 1) or 1 (speed = 0). You then start adding and whenever the duration matches the duration of anga (in aksharas - so 4 aksharas for the laghu of Adi), you apply the marker.

I think it is better to think in terms of how long the matra is to the akshara as opposed to how many matras per akshara. So you could potentially have 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 - not all supported now of course :)! The M/4 approach would place the shortest matra as 1/4. The other does not place it - *although*, right now it is 1/8 but that is for different reasons

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Nov 2007, 06:31, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#65

Post by vasanthakokilam » 24 Nov 2007, 08:49

OK, thanks Arun.
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arunk
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#66

Post by arunk » 24 Nov 2007, 09:36

I have uploaded a new version. This has

1. A fix for Adi2Kalai. Previously in Varnam format Adi2Kalai was same as Adi. I think this is wrong. Besides older ninnukori was wrong in 2 ways - the tala avarthana as shown was 1/2 of what was in the book (main reason why I thought that approach was wrong). Also the words were wrong :). Now Adi-2 Kalai 8+4+4 in krithis and varnams. To render Adi tala varnams, it would be better to use Adi2Kalai. Note that for krithis (may be not all) you can sort of swing both ways i.e. be able to represent Adi2Kalai or Adi, and change DefaultSpeed accordingly and get very similar layout.
2. I have introduced _ (single underscore) and __ (double underscore) as a way of indicating "empty swaras" in the swara line. This can be used to "indent" the swara line by the eduppu. I have explained a bit about this in the manual (under Swara Directive). I dont know how many people will use it, but I have got feedback that this is useful (and it was easy to implement)

Please let me know if there are any regressions because of this. I think this should not except if you had varnams with tala Adi2Kalai and were ok with the fact it actually generated Adi 1-kalai :)


Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Nov 2007, 09:36, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#67

Post by vasanthakokilam » 24 Nov 2007, 11:16

I tried the Varnam layout Adi2Kalai. It works fine. Thanks. No regressions encountered in my limited use after that update.
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gobilalitha
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#68

Post by gobilalitha » 24 Nov 2007, 12:20

dear arun. with my very poor knowledge of computer applicationsand music notations, I feel very guilty that I have not been to appreciate the wonderful work you are doing . my occupancy with computer is just for sending mails and to hear good music . may GOD bless you with more and more such achievements gobilalitha
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Suji Ram
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#69

Post by Suji Ram » 28 Nov 2007, 00:09

Suji,

I did not change anything in this regard. Same browser/PC? Did you change font or perhaps browser is using a different one? If possible please try on Firefox also to see if you are getting the same.
Arun,
I have this problem with Firefox. It is fine with IE. I could't figure out what I need to change in fonts in the settings in FF. Now I realise that the problem exists after seeing Ramakriya postings in another the thread in all the languages using transliteration software.

I usually use IE 7.0 at home so shouldn't be a problem working with notation editor.
if you can tell me how to fix it in FF it would be fine though for future.

Meanwhile... I am working on getting some varnams in malayamarutham , CakravAkam etc.. and kritis tranferred from a battered copy in telugu which needs a lot of attention before they become unreadable.

I think this is a great software for learners and dabblers (as well as composers) as it is a sort of exercise while learning. It is time-consuming in the beginning but when you get the knack of handling it becomes easier.
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arunk
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#70

Post by arunk » 28 Nov 2007, 00:19

suji - is it this?

From my transliterator page http://arunk.freepgs.com/cmtranslit/cmt ... cheme.html :

Note:: This web-page contains characters in Devanagiri, Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam. If they do not display correctly, then you need to install proper fonts on your computer. On Firefox, if the Indian language characters do appear but are in the wrong order, please follow instructions given in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ng_support
Last edited by arunk on 28 Nov 2007, 00:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Suji Ram
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#71

Post by Suji Ram » 28 Nov 2007, 01:02

Thanks Arun,
problem is fixed now.
probably someone shifted to east asian...
Last edited by Suji Ram on 28 Nov 2007, 01:03, edited 1 time in total.
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gn.sn42
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#72

Post by gn.sn42 » 29 Nov 2007, 03:03

A potential large-scale user?

Excerpt from rasikapriya post:
She has written down all the compositions with detailed notations, structure with pertininent information like Ragam, Talam and Chitta swaram. She wants to print these and bring it out in a book format... Are there any softwares available with which i can myself put all these Compositions with the notations into a soft copy easily?

The original post is accessible to rasikapriya members at http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ra ... sage/16437
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hemaflute
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#73

Post by hemaflute » 17 Dec 2007, 22:56

was looking out for just somesuch thingi.. very excited to hv found this.. God, you must hv spent ages making this. wl use this and let you know. Thanks in advance.
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arunk
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#74

Post by arunk » 21 Dec 2007, 16:06

thanks gn.sn42 and hemaflute.
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arunk
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#75

Post by arunk » 27 Feb 2008, 20:57

I do not know how many people here use this software, but for those of you, just wanted to inform that last night I released the next version - version 1.1. You find information about the new features in this release at http://arunk.freepgs.com/wordpress/cm-t ... lease-v11/

Also I have "redressed" by arunk.freepgs.com website a couple of weeks ago: http://arunk.freepgs.com . It now follows a "blog" like format and so you can leave feedback (or ask questions) on various topics on the website itself.

Note that I also updated the transliteration scheme and transliterator to version 1.1. You can find information about it at http://arunk.freepgs.com/wordpress/cm-t ... lease-v11/ . The big change is support for the "grantha Sa" character i.e. the one for Siva Sakthi (the one you find in Slokam books).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 27 Feb 2008, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
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