Graha/Sruthi bedam

To teach and learn Indian classical music
arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Vijay,
Great suggestions! In my (not so expert) view, they are valuable.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Uday, Arun: I realize that you two do not want to continue this and have gone to your respective corners ;), but see if the following point is relevant to this off-topic discussion. ( this post will be moved as well along with others )

I think Arun's main point is about Uday's coming on a bit strongly ( which of course is Uday's right ) against the CM lakshya gnyanam based rasikas who are fascinated by graha bhedam and how WM enthusiasts might be puzzled by this fuss. But then interestingly the discussion went into lakshana.

I consider myself more lakshya-based since I can not translate melodic phrases into notes. So coming from that camp, here is my fascination with graha bhedam. The main lakshya difference between WM and CM is we associate a higher level concept to characteristic note sequences. That is the raga. Along with that goes a whole lot of built in associative memories, emotions etc. I do not think WM rasikas intuitively do that. They may not even look for a higher level common melodic theme for two pieces in the same scale and give it a higher level meaning, let alone do that across scales. I have no doubt that they sense the change whenever something changes but without necessarily explicitly giving each one a swaroopa or figure or shape or a definition with a name. That may be the reason for their possible rolling their eyes at our fascination.

Given that, it is fascinating to me that just by playing with the aural perceptions of the listener, you get to create that illusion. It is like the aural equivalent of the visual phenomenon where depending on what you focus, different pictures emerge, like this familiar young woman-old woman example.

Image

This picture has fascinated researches and have been used in many research efforts in understanding visual perception and whether there are differences in such perception between the sexes or is affected by age etc. I think our graha bedham is fascinating in this sense.

At the risk of overstating my fascination with this, I would also think that this can be used for research efforts for understanding such background and focus based ( "tonic" ) aural switches by using CM rasikas as test subjects. Are there sex-based differences? Age-based differences? etc.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

VK,
Thanks for adding visual dimension to the auditory discussions AND for taking me back to my undergrad years. This old lady getting younger for a moment :)

chalanata
Posts: 603
Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55

Post by chalanata »

drohit,
the best way to attain swara gnana is to practice alankara in all ragas. there is no other easier way.
VK,
the old lady-young lady example has become a 'cliche' now and because of its having been used quite a no of times it has lost its novelty;
this is also nothing new; the concept can be explained better by the age old sankara's 'snake-rope' theory.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

VK
I agree with chalanata about how trite that picture is as well as commonplace the psychological message conveyed! Let us try something new. Here is the Western (Egyptian?) Lady who is nondescript.
Image

No amount of peering will give you any other clues as much like listening to the WM passively. But then just do a headstand (invert the picture :)

Image

With that much of effort you would discover the coy Indian cutie hiding within her tresses! Just like discovering the beauty of CM inside WM; of course with effort and deep cogitation :)

(don't worry! I hold no copyrights on these pics :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

chalanata: Yes, it is a 'cliche' picture but not sure if by dismissing it as such you are trying to dismiss the pareallel I was making about graha bhedam as well.

Also, this has not much to do with Shankara's snake-rope story. This is much more mundane: Depending on what you focus visually, you get different pictures, similar to the focus on which swara you latch on as the 'tonic' in the grahabheda case, different ragas emerge while the artist is playing the same set of notes ( excluding gamakas ).

CML: Your doctoring of the picture is quite clever. Your point is not confined to the graha bhedam, I suppose. All I see in the inverted picture is a 'dot' wearing female santa claus with a black beard ;)

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

VK,
Fur clad dames, besides being passe are also targets for a can of spray paint these days.
I see your point too. With all the analysis and calculations which make the study of CM fascinating, what matters in the end is the joy it brings--an inexpressible, intriguing feeling of beauty. Call it spiritual if you wish. The images of music can be as tricky to discern as this picture. I think there is a point in your posting it. It is similar to the ear playing tricks with the music we hear--some of us with preconceived notions and others with an unschooled freshness in their approach.

In teasing you, CML got to add to the collection and got creative (a hand at graffiti?) in the process...:)
Last edited by arasi on 06 Aug 2007, 03:57, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

VK
" An aged widower brahmin Tamil PaNDithar was carryin a heavy head load of vegetables with the pumpkin glaringly visible. His friend who also was a scholar jokingly queried:
"thalaividivasam?" (thalaivi +divasam = Is it for the shrAddha ceremony of your wife?)

The struggling brahmin responded quickly:
thalaividivasam! (Of course it is my wife's shraddha ceremony; Or indirectly it is "thalai vidi vasam" (it is the fate on my head!)

Have your pick :) Like the same music evoking different emotions in different folks. Can somebody give an example of a raga (with an example) evoking diametrically opposite emotions (eg., anger /tranquility (raudram/shAntam) ?

shanks
Posts: 118
Joined: 25 May 2006, 22:03

Post by shanks »

Guys,
Listen to this recording of S Kalyanaraman; the bedam occurs about 3:50 into the recording. But you can feel that he is setting up for the bedam exercise from the moment he starts on hamsanandi.

http://rapidshare.com/files/47604818/S_ ... m.mp3.html

there is the theory or concept and then there is execution - what matters for a musician is the execution. And you see a fabulous example of execution.

Uday: When you start talking about tonic shift as in the beatles song, what they are doing is transposing to a different tonic, but the melody itself remains the same. You will also find that while one guy is on a tonic, there is another guy singing in another.

I have heard music that was written/notated in G minor being played in D minor - the guys playing it could transpose on the fly.

Shankar

jagan
Posts: 157
Joined: 23 Dec 2006, 18:31

Post by jagan »

An analysis of Swara / Graha Bedha and how it leads to inconsistencies in the sruti, swara and oscillations and the resultant mutilation of the raga (Raga Chidaivu) is available in the book " Isai Kalai Vallunargal " by the great veena vidwan Prof. V.S. Gomathi Sankara Iyer, of Annamalai University. (Pages 184 to 210). But it is highly technical.
Last edited by jagan on 20 Sep 2007, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

Jigyaasa
Posts: 587
Joined: 16 May 2006, 14:04

Post by Jigyaasa »

coolkarni wrote:Here is a lecdem of kalyanraman on this sibject for an hour or so.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20484545/gra ... 1.mp3.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/20485538/gra ... 2.mp3.html
Could some1 who downloaded this lecdem PLEASE repost it... I missed it when it was around but would deem it INVALUABLE... So I'd be extremely grateful if some1 could oblige...
Also, I have heard of a shrutibhEdam from AnandabhairavI to nAsikAbhUshaNI or vice-versa from a not-so-reliable source... Is this theoretically correct? Does anyone know of an artiste having worked on shrutibhEdam with vivAdi rAgAs?
Last edited by Jigyaasa on 27 Sep 2007, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

thathwamasi
Posts: 274
Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 01:15

Post by thathwamasi »

Just read about the earlier clip. I have been dying to listen to that clip, if its the Lalgudi Thillana in Tilang. Lalgudi Sir plays it in Madhyama Shruti, which if we tend to listen from Sama shruti, will make it sound like Varamu (though it isnt varamu technically because of the use of Ga3 as well as Ga2 in the place of Ni1 and Ni2 for tilang).

Please can someone post it. The anupallavi of that thillana is something I can drool over again and again and again.

Thanks
T

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

thathwamasi wrote:Just read about the earlier clip. I have been dying to listen to that clip, if its the Lalgudi Thillana in Tilang. Lalgudi Sir plays it in Madhyama Shruti, which if we tend to listen from Sama shruti, will make it sound like Varamu (though it isnt varamu technically because of the use of Ga3 as well as Ga2 in the place of Ni1 and Ni2 for tilang).

Please can someone post it. The anupallavi of that thillana is something I can drool over again and again and again.

Thanks
T
Thattwamasi,

I hope I have this clip, and will try to upload.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

Until I find the violin track, here is the tillAna played by Dr. N Ramani.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/z4K ... As1NMvHdW/

-Ramakriya

Sundar Krishnan
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Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50

Post by Sundar Krishnan »

Hello “msakellaâ€

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, Sundar Krishnan,

In the pdf file, Symbolised Kampitas and Gamakas, furnished in my mp3 CD, AMS Easy Methods-2007, in the 1st page itself the Kampita and Gamaka are defined along with examples. While the oscillation of a note in relation with its adjacent (either upper or lower) note is Kampita, the note which starts oscillating from its second upper note up to the original note only is Lalitha-gamaka and the note which swings between the second upper note and the immediate lower note of a particular note is Sampradaya-gamaka.

Among the 12 notes while Shadja and Panchama are permanent plain notes and the upper and lower adjacent notes of both Shadja and Panchama which are R1, N3, D1 and M2 are permanent Kampitas (till now 6 notes are over) the remaining 6 notes can be used as either plain-notes or Kampita-notes or Gamaka-notes. But, among them, the Sampradaya-gamaka should be applied only to 3 notes, Sadharana-gandhara (G2), Shuddha-madhyama(M1) and Kaishiki-nishada (N2). In Kampita the Shuddha-madhyama should always be sung or played basing upon its lower adjacent note, Antara-gandhara only. The Shuddha-madhyama (m1) in Khamas should be used with Kampita either in the Arohana or Avarohana and with Sampradaya-gamaka of the downward glide from D2 to G3 in the ‘sangathis’ ‘p s n d M’ or ‘s s n d M’ – pnDnp pmMrG M. In Shankarabharana the Madhyama should be used either as a plain-note or Kampita-note or Gamaka note.

Lalitha-gamaka and Sampradaya-gamaka are the 2 varieties of gamakas. Please don’t think that Lalitha-gamaka occurs in Lalitha-raga only. Shuddha-madhyama (M1) in Lalitha-raga is a plain note only.

As this is a practical subject this must be explained through a demonstration only but not in terms of letters and words. If you are not satisfied (you may not) and if you have broadband internet you can contact my ID ‘msakella2002’ either on Yahoo Messenger or Skype around 8 am or pm (IST) ony day to speak to me in which I can demonstrate the details. amsharma.

Sundar Krishnan
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Post by Sundar Krishnan »

Hello Mr Uday Shankar, [and also Mr A M Sharma (“msakellaâ€

Sundar Krishnan
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Post by Sundar Krishnan »

Dear Mr A M Sharma (“msakellaâ€

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, Sundar Krishnan, When I saw your first post I thought that you want some clarification of Gamakas and I replied in a way I can. Now, having gone through your two posts, as a non-expert in English but knowing a little of music, at last I became unable to make out what you want to know. In my case, in such cases, personal discussions only help much than this kind of messages. So I hope you don’t mind if I stop here. amsharma.

Sundar Krishnan
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Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50

Post by Sundar Krishnan »

The foll Pt Nos refer to the Point-Numbers in my msg dt 2008-10-03 14:31 (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=92518#p92518)

Pt No 2) I would have appreciated if “msakellaâ€

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

[quote]Sundar Krishnan wroe:
I also do not have yr “Symbolised Kampitas and Gamakasâ€

vrsh-a
Posts: 11
Joined: 22 Jun 2009, 07:15

Post by vrsh-a »

can someone please repost the s kalyanaraman lecture demo files
thankz

~vrsh-a
Last edited by vrsh-a on 06 Jul 2009, 05:12, edited 1 time in total.

nmdharan
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Joined: 27 May 2009, 16:23

Post by nmdharan »

hi the discussion is very good!! Actually speaking, while one does graha bedam, I think the progress has to be made note by note!! its obvious that when singing sankarabaranam, sa-sa should be sung followed by ri-ri and so on because one cannot just jump from sa to ma (this is the assumption that i make from the theory that i have read. I am not sure if it is upto the singer to choose that ragaas they sing becausee then there is no need to explain the pattern that forms with graha bedam and moorchana)!
I am looking forward for any further inputs.

rasikaranjan
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Joined: 24 Jul 2009, 21:02

Post by rasikaranjan »

your own section on a CD by aviolin duet with the title Shadjam has given a very exhilerating review for some time. I find the CD very educative. you may also try

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

I'm not sure if I had posted it here before, but for some of the basic graha bheda questions, I'm posting a link here to a presentation (to young music students) I did sometime ago:

A Beginners Guide to Grahabheda: http://neelanjana.wordpress.com/2008/12 ... ers-guide/

-Ramakriya


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