Graha/Sruthi bedam

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 26 May 2005, 15:09

What exactly is this GrehaBedham?
Is it not popular among carnatic musicians?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 29 May 2005, 13:04

is it the same as sruti bhedam ?
i have not come across this in concerts quite often.
my guess has been that it might have been considered impure by some.am i right?
in hindusthani something similar happens.artists of certain schools tend to touch-just that briefly- swaras not belonging to the raga in order to give it a sensational touch.
I get a similar feeling when voleti-msg literally go on a rampage in the renderings of panthuvarali poorviklayani kritis.
wonder if someone can sum it up for us.
personally i get a great kick when somebody does it nicely,though i have to fasten my seatbelts until they come back to open ground..
rapidshare.de/files/2042256/Somu-todi.mp3.html
: http://rapidshare.de/files/2042508/balm ... e.mp3.html

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Jun 2005, 01:46

grahabedham means a shift in tonic (i.e. base or graha of the "scale") from sa to another swara, which would yield another raga.

Let me try to explain.

If you look at the swarasthanams in CM within an octave you have:

s r1 r2/g1 r3/g2 g3 m1 m2 p d1 d2/n1 d3/n2 n3 s'

(r2/g1 implies that r2 and g1 share the same sthanam, and s' is sa in the next octave)

Let us take shankarabharanam: s r2 g3 m1 p d2 n3 s'. Now take the intervals (# of stanams) between adjacent swaras, and you have 2 2 1 2 2 2 1.

Next consider kharaharapriya: s r2 g2 m1 p d2 n2 s'. Now take the intervals (# of stanams) between adjacent swaras, and you have 2 1 2 2 2 1 2

Now consider the swara sequence for shankarabharanam but starting from "rishabam" i.e. as in r2 g3 m1 p d2 n3 s' r2' . (r2' is in the next octave). The pattern is 2 1 2 2 2 1 2. This pattern is the same as that of kharaharapriya!

Kharaharapriya is hence the rishaba murchana (sequence) of shankarabharanam. In other words, grahabedham of shankarabharanam on "ri" yields kharaharapriya. Other terms are sruthibedham, swarabedham although a musician told me that sruthibedham and grahabedham have technical differences.

Arun

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 12 May 2006, 15:37

I've given a couple of possibilities here. In the first track, that is just a straight example of sruthi/graha bedam. The second track explains graha bedam briefly and how it works with another example. I think this one sounds a little better and is more beneficial.

I would be grateful if someone can improve the quality of the audio too, as it would be more beneficial. This is a brief lead-up to mohan's posts which we look forward to.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20252985/Voc ... m.mp3.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/20254035/Voc ... e.mp3.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 May 2006, 00:22

What a terrible recording?
Can't hear anything! Pl cleanup and repost!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 May 2006, 10:36

Here is a lecdem of kalyanraman on this sibject for an hour or so.
I am putting it up again for the benefit of newcomers.
If any one had downloaded it earlier , kindly note that this is an improved version.I have done a bot of tinkering with volumes , hiss etc.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20484545/gra ... 1.mp3.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/20485538/gra ... 2.mp3.html

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 May 2006, 16:46

Thanks Coolkarni for posting that lec-dem.

Was that by any chance recorded in Australia? I remember attending a similar lec-dem by Sri TSK as a teen many years ago in Sydney with KS Mani playing the casio.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 15 May 2006, 18:20

Cheers Coolkarni...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 May 2006, 18:39

Mohan
I have no idea where this lecdem was performed

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 15 May 2006, 19:38

This is probably the best sound quality I can make it to.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20516208/Voc ... 1.mp3.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/20517804/Voc ... 2.mp3.html

Thanks for the upload coolkarni. Now I just have to get around to downloading it soon...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 May 2006, 22:19

Dear Vocalist
That was much better
But there is still a bee in your bonnet

I have tried to squelch to the best of my ability!
Try
http://rapidshare.de/files/20528950/Voc ... 2.mp3.html

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 16 May 2006, 00:24

Thanks CML.

Also, there might be a few errors here and there in a few notes or pronounciations. Still, it was impromptu. Hopefully my secret isn't too obvious. Not particularly fond of sankarAbaranam.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 19 May 2006, 09:27

Here is a description of greha bedham

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse ... 0000000000

I don't find the 101100001 type of labelling particularly useful.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 May 2006, 07:56

I just finished listening to Shri. Kalyanaraman's lec-demo...He has done a good job in demonstrating the basic technique. A few observations/questions...

1) The AdhAra shadjam does not change in the sense the tanpura does not get retuned...The musician with the help of violin or harmonium creates the illusion of tonic shift. So in a way the tanpura gets crowded out or made immaterial....Right? Please Check me on this.

2) What I am wondering is, in a non grahabeda situation, if for some reason the musician while rendering Mohanam, loudly ( enough to crowd out the tanpura ) and repeatedly sings GA PA DHA SA RI GA, GA RI SA DHA PA GA a few times and then sings sancharams in that range, is he/she running the risk of the audience hearing a different raga...( assuming the gamakams also port over )...That will be worth a demo in itself, if that had occurred in concerts.

3) The amazing and at the same time strange thing is, it is so much in the minds of the listener ( especially for graha beda pairs that are mostly scalar ragas with not much gamakam ). It is like those optical illusion pictures where what you see depends on what you focus on, background or foreground. This is the auditory illusion where what raga we hear depends on what we focus on, the background Adhara Shadja or the foreground one.

4) In the Kalyanaraman demo, in the latter half, I wish he explained things in a bit more orderly fashion ( along with repeating the questions the audience asked ) when he demonstrated Shanmukhapriya, Nattaikurinji and Sindhu Bhairavi as results of successive grahabeda. This sequence sounded a lot more convincing and new as well. What would have been cooler is constructing a ragamalika like thing where he smoothly weaved through these ragas with graha beda ( may be that is what he was doing but I did not catch on ).

5) Also, I did not understand what he was getting at with the Shenchuritti demonstration. Can someone explain?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 May 2006, 21:40

VK

I concur with you! SK is not quite organized and perhaps this was done extempore.

We need more experiments! The last word is not spoken nor has the concept been clarified!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 05 Jun 2006, 19:10

Thanks coolkarni. i just realised I missed VK's post. Ok VK...

1) Yes, which is why people mistakenly assume that another rAgA is taken.

2) The audience are likely to think it's another rAgA, I think I said that in one of my earlier uploads (and Kalyanaraman should have mentioned this too).

3) Interesting observation. It is a nice way of seeing it

4) and 5) I'll have to come back to this one at a later date. I haven't listened to Kalyanaraman's still. Someone else can jump in to answer though.

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 06 Jun 2006, 18:15

In a recent Ranjani/Gayathri concert in Detroit Michigan(June 4 th 2006), during the RTP of Hamsanandi, Gayathri did sruti bedham on Ri of Hamsanandi to yield Hindolam. My question is Hamsanandi being a shAdava-shAdava raga and Hindolam being an Audava-Audava raga, how does sruti bedham of Hamsanandhi on Ri yield Hindolam? It was my understanding that sruti bedham of a raga yielded the same number of notes as was in the parent raga as in the example of mohanam and its five sruti bheda pairs. I hope this is relevant to the topic being discussed and would appreciate if someone can enlighten me on this. Thanks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Jun 2006, 19:48

nadhasudha,

You can omit one or more swaras in the raga, and then do the graha bedham - and thus can get from sampoorna to shadava/audava, or as in here from shadava to audava.

From hamsanandhi to hindolam, you omit sa, and then do a graha bedham on ri:
R1 G3 M2 D2 N3 R1 => S G2 M1 D1 N2 S

Arun

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 06 Jun 2006, 21:47

arunk,
Thanks for the explanation. However I have a couple of more questions on the graha bedham. How is the transition determined in the resulting raga? To explain my question
The transition from S to R1 in Hamsanandi is only 1 interval. When R1 becomes S, should not the next swara be R2/G1 if the interval between the notes are to be maintained as in the originating raagam? I apologize in advance if my question appears confusing. Pardon my ignorance.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Jun 2006, 19:34

nadhasudha,

The transition from S to R1 in Hamsanandi is only 1 interval. When R1 becomes S, should not the next swara be R2/G1 if the interval between the notes are to be maintained as in the originating raagam? I apologize in advance if my question appears confusing. Pardon my ignorance.

In graha-bedham, the "positions"/swarasthanas of the swaras in the raga remain the same before and after the shift (otherwise if it is as you are thinking, you would simply stay in hamsanandi but on a higher sruthi). More precisely, this implies that the "spacing" i.e. intervals between adjacent swaras remain the same before and after the shift. What happens is "sa" moves from its original position to a new position. When it moves to the ri (R1) position as here, the next swara will still be in the original G3 position of hamsAnandi i.e. 3 intervals from the ri position. So when ri becomes sa, the swarasthana that is 3 intervals away becomes G2 (or R3).

It is perhaps easier to see grahabedham mathematically if you write down the swaras, calculate the spacings between them and then write the spacing as a sequence. For example, hamsAnandi is S R1 G3 M1 D2 N3 S', which has a spacing pattern of 1(S-R1) 3(R1-G3) 2(G3-M2) 3(M2-D2) 2(D2-N3) 1(N3-S') i.e. 1 3 2 3 2 1. But without sa, and starting from ri, it is R1 G3 M1 D2 N3 R1' and the spacing is 3 2 3 2 2. Now hindOLam is S G2 M1 D1 N2 S' which has the same spacing pattern of 3 2 3 2 2. Thus a graha-bedham on ri of hamsAnandi without sa, yields hindOLam.

Arun

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 07 Jun 2006, 22:17

arunk,
Thanks for your succinct explanation using the fixed intervals. That helped clear my misunderstanding of graha bedham and also answered my question. Thanks a lot!

CSS · Post by **CSS** » 19 Aug 2006, 22:41

Sruti-bedham is an interesting skill. Skill, because if you have swara pramAnam, then it is very easy to sing it. The beauty of it comes when you return to the original rAgam - like Bhoopalam interpersed with Simhendramadhyamam. It is best done in moderation. The GNB school is very famous for this !

Sri LGJ gave a performace at the lecture Theatre, IIT-B in 1981(?) for SPIC-MACY wherein he delineated Mohan and all the derivatives from thereon. Don't know if SPIC MACY have a recording of that. :/

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 11 Nov 2006, 17:32

Coolkarniji,
Could you please upload the SKR demo files again ?

Thanks

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 14 Nov 2006, 04:48

I will second thanjavur for the request ... can someone kindly re-post the TSK demo again?

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 01 Dec 2006, 23:50

Yet another question on Graha/Sruthi Bedham

In a recent concert of Sudha Raghunathan in Detroit, Michign, she sang an RTP in Shankarabharanam. During the raga alapana of Shankarabranam, she did a Sruthi/Graha Bedham. I was very excited that I could comprehend that a Sruthi/Graha Bedham was being done but for the life of me, I could not find the resulting raagam . I do happen to know the Sruthi/Graha Bedham pairs of Shankarabharanam but the resulting raga sounded like nothing I knew. After the concert I asked Sudha what was the resulting raga and she said it was "Yaman". I have since done some research and found some web sites that give the arohanam and avarohanam of "Yaman" to be the same as Kalyani. Since "Yaman" is purported to have the same scale as Kalyani, the sruthi/graha bedham must have occured on the Madhayama of Shankarabharanam. I have two questions

1. If north indian "Yaman" is similar to Kalyani why did it not sound similar to Kalyani - I am no genius in figuring out ragas but I think I can tell Kalyani when I hear it.

2. I understand that there could be some possible differences in rendition of the same raga in two systems and would like to know what they are in regards to Kalyani and Yaman.

I hope this is relevant to the topic being discussed.

I hope some forum members can enlighten me on this. Thanks for your help

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 02 Dec 2006, 21:01

As a starting point, listen to Krishna Nee Begane...you may recognise its rAgA as sounding the same, as the one rendered by Sudha in the kutcheri...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 02 Dec 2006, 21:19

Yamuna kalyani is a shadava janyam of Kalyani - nishadam is varjyam. Yaman of HM is the equivalent of CM Kalyani. The Hindustani rendition will sound different because of the two different styles, e.g. CM gamakas are mostly absent in CM, HM uses different pakads etc. Same is true for several other equivalent ragas between the two systems.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 03 Dec 2006, 16:26

Dear member, nadasudha, In the process of â€˜Graha Bhedam â€˜or â€˜modal shift of tonicâ€™ (neither Shruthi Bhedam nor Mathi Bhedam) of the raga Shankarabharanam the 22nd Melakartha , Kharaharapriya could be heard from the note â€˜Rishabhaâ€™, 8th Melakartha, Hanumatodi from â€˜Gandharaâ€™, 65th Mela, Mechakalyani (usually called Kalyani) from â€˜Madhyamaâ€™, 28th Mela, Harikambhoji from â€˜Panchamaâ€™ and 20th Mela, Nathabhairavi from â€˜Dhaivataâ€™. Having got acquaintance with Hindusthani music also she must have casually told you â€˜Yamanâ€™. Had she told you â€˜Kalyaniâ€™ you would not have bothered about the name of the Raga. Our Kalyani and their Yaman are same just like our Indian ladies in different States like Tamilnadu, Andhra, Karnataka, Maharashtra etc., wearing the same sari in different styles. Unlike Hindusthani Yaman our Yamuna Kalyani have Shuddha Madhyama also.
In Hindusthani music the artists mostly sing the plain notes of any Raga. Even if they want to apply the Gamaka to any note it will be used between the actual note and the 2nd upper note only. For example in Hindusthani music the Sadharana Gandhara is swung between Sadharana Gandhara and the 2nd upper note Shuddha Madhyama, which is a Lalita-gamaka. In Karnataka music, the Gamaka will occasionally be like in Hindusthani music but mostly between the Chatusshruti Rishabha and Shuddha Madhyama, which is traditional-gamaka. The Lalita-gamaka could be enjoyed by anybody but the traditional-gamaka is treated as off-note or apa-shruthi by â€˜northerensâ€™. While, we, southerens are used to enjoy the traditional-gamaka the â€˜northerensâ€™ are not used to enjoy it. In the same manner, while, we, â€˜southerensâ€™ treat the treatises, Sangita Ratnakara, Svaramelakalanidhi, Ragavibodha, Chaturdandiprakashika etc., etc., as our ancient Granthas and follow the Melakartha scheme formulated on the 12 notes and their 16 variations and the Tala scheme of them the â€˜northernsâ€™ also treat them as their ancient Granthas but they do not follow at all this 16 variations of notes or any of the Talangas, Anudruta, Druta, Laghu, Guru, Pluta or Kakapada in their Talas. Our Indian Culture has always been very Great being accommodative to welcome any change and to include it in our Culture. amsharma.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Dec 2006, 06:46

akellaji: Regarding the different gamaka styles of HM and CM, is it correct to say that in HM the oscillatory gamakams are not used in general where as it is quite commonplace in CM? ( with the sliding variety of gamakams present in both systems ).

Second, I have also heard that HM rasikas may find oscillatory gamakams as off-note or apa-shruthi, as you have stated. Is it quite widespread among HM rasikas? I can understand that the margin for error is very less in executing oscillatory gamakams and so it is possible to slip into the territory of off note but with professional musicians that should not be the case normally. So, if a properly executed oscillatory gamaka is perceived as apa-shruthi by an HM-only rasika, that will be quite interesting to ponder why.

There have been scientific measurements done on oscillatory gamakas. The results are leaning towards the idea that the pitch perception of an oscillatory gamaka is based on the average of the oscillation. Violinists range of oscillation for a particular note tends to be a bit narrower than a vocalist ( and in fact more consistent over a period of time ) but in a concert when played together it all sounds great. The idea is that the psychoacoustical perception of a note is based on the average of the range of oscillation. The width of the range can affect the 'color' of the note but it will still be perceived as that note. A rough analogy is like how different harmonics cause the aural perception of different instruments for the same plain note.

Let us take examples of prayogas that have wide oscillatory gamakas. The 'ma' of kamas and the 'ga' of thodi come to my mind readily. Let us also make sure that they are properly executed and CM rasikas view it as 'sowkyam'ful, It will be very interesting to hear the reactions of an HM-only rasika. Would that person consider those two as off note or apa-swara?

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 04 Dec 2006, 23:09

Respected msakellaji,
Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my query. The explanation is very easy to understand and the difference between north indian gamakas and our south indian gamakas is clear. On reading your post, I have another question. In the first line you wrote
"In the process of Graha Bhedam or modal shift of tonic(neither Shruthi Bhedam nor Mathi Bedham")

Does this mean that Graha Bhedam and Shruthi Bhedam are two different concepts. I thought the two were one and the same? And what is Mathi Bedham?

Thanks for your help!

nadhasudha

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 05 Dec 2006, 13:41

Dear moderator, Vasanthakokilam, I request you to kindly go through the thread â€˜Greatness of Karnataka musicâ€™ also under General discussions. Even though it is much painful to know, it is a bare fact to find that, most unfortunately, neither of our music veterans nor great musicologists did ever care to take the proper steps for the documentation of our Karnataka music (or even in Hindusthani music) right from the golden period of the musical Trinity, at the least. In fact, we are in such a very bad state of affairs that we are compelled to believe in a person who declares himself the 4th or 5th direct descendant of one of the musical Trinity, irrespective of the standard of music he sings. Having felt very bad about this, I have myself ventured, somehow, to categorise and symbolise the different Kampitas and Gamakas of our Karnataka music and brought them in my book â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudha (Telugu/English)â€™ along with nearly 60 to 70 symbols and detailed definitions and examples. I have also illustrated them taking Bhairavi-raga and 4 compositions of it. Of course, still I cannot tell that what I did is the ultimate and final as our music is so complex than any other system on the globe. I very well know that many may not appreciate this and only one or two in thousands may go through them critically. I did all this just to make a start only.
1.Gamakas are one and the same in both the systems of Karnataka and Hindusthani but the radius of Gamaka differs as furnished in my above post more particularly with Sadharana-gandhara, Shuddha-madhyama and Kashiki-nishada.
2.Either Kampita or Gamaka of any note in Hindusthani music is made above a particular note but not below the note at all. In our Karnataka music the Kampita of Shuddha-rishabha and Shuddha-dhaivata should be made from the lower note only, which I have named it as â€˜Adho-svaragatasthana-pradhanya-kampitaâ€™ (refer my book). In the same manner, the radius of the traditional-gamaka of Sadharana-gandhara, Shuddha-madhyama and Kaishiki-nishada starts from the 2nd upper note Shuddha-madhyama, Panchama and Shadja respectively up to the immediate-lower-note Chatusshruti-rishabha, Angatara-gandhara and Chatusshruti-dhaivata respectively which sounds like an off-note to Hindusthani musicians.
3.As you wrote the width of range of the oscillation will definitely affect the â€˜colorâ€™ of the note.
At this juncture, it must be agreed that while the oscillative range in Hindusthani music is above the note and natural and facilitating to relish it, the range in Karnataka music is spreading to the immediate-lower-note, which is odd and enjoyable to the individuals only who are much acquainted with. To tell the truth, Violinists are far more sensitive than Vocalists and many of the professional Violinists are more perfect in such things than many of the Vocalists.
4.The â€˜gaâ€™ of Todi, being the Sadharana-gandhara and having the maximum oscillative range from Shuddha-madhyama to Chatusshruti-rishabha cannot be relished by any Hindusthani musician at all. While the note â€˜maâ€™ in Khamas is mostly of â€˜Adho-svaragatasthana-pradhanya-kampitaâ€™ the â€˜maâ€™ of Shankarabharana is of the maximum oscillative range from Panchama to Antara-gandhara pertaining to traditioinal-gamaka. So, as each one of them is linked with their lower note, no Hindusthani musician can relish them. Of course, as we are, from the beginning, acquainted with such maximum range of oscillations, we can easily relish (just like the people residing in the vicinity of Kuvvum river in Chennai - pl. donâ€™t mind). amsharma.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 05 Dec 2006, 13:42

Dear member, nadasudha, Generally this kind of thing in music is called Graha-bhedam or modal shift of tonic as the starting note i.e., the Graha-svara, â€˜Shadjaâ€™ is shifted to another note in doing it. I have never heard of calling it even Shruti-bhedam. More over, as I like much to be laughing and to make others laugh, jokingly I wrote â€˜Shruti-bhedam / Mathi-bhedamâ€™ making each other similar. Mathi-bhedam means off-minded. Please donâ€™t take â€˜mathi-bhedamâ€™ seriously and try to get it. amsharma.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Dec 2006, 13:43

msakellaji: Thanks very much. That is very useful to learn.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Dec 2006, 04:34

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/12/15/stor ... 671000.htm

Might explain something more as well!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 04:12

Mathematical analysis of graha-bhedam:
http://www.hindu.com/ms/2006/12/01/stor ... 110700.htm

Can someone explain the following with the help of a real example?

Take a raga, and represent it by an integer sequence by replacing its swaras by the corresponding integers... While shifting Sa to, say, Ma, to each number in the integer sequence add a constant number and find the remainder when divided by 12, the number added being the shift in swaras that you are considering. Sorting the resulting integer sequence in ascending order yields the integer sequence of the murchana.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 04:41

Jayaram
You left out a crucial statement in the beginning

Let us suppose one wants to derive a murchana of a raga. Take the 12 basic notes S r R g G m M P d D n N, and number them from zero to eleven

.

I think the explanation is not clear in the article. Let me clarify
To make it crystal clear, lets number each swara side by side.

S= 0, R1= 1, R2= 2, G2=3, G3=4, M1=5, M2#6, P=7, D1=8, D2=9, N2=10, N3=11
Of course S*=12

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 04:50

Now let us take up kharaharapriya for illustration. Its scale, as we know, is

SR2G2M1PD2N2S* | The corresponding numbers for these swaras will be
0,2,3, 5, 7,9,10

Ok. Lets now make madhyama the new tonic/AdhAra ShaDja. The crucial thing to do here is to remebe that ShaDja is always zero. Therefore, to make madhyama with a value of 5 as ShaDja, we will have to add 7 to it (so that the remainder is zero when divided by 12). Now the constant here is 7.

Add 7 to the numerical values of all the swaras. We now get the numbers 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17. Upon dividing by 12, we get the remainders which is the new series as follows.

7, 9, 10, 0, 2, 4, 5. Now the corresponding swaras for these numerical values are

P, D2, N2, S, R2, G3 & M1. These are the swaras of harikAmbodhi.

Therefore the madhyama mUrchane of kharaharapriya is harikAmbOdhi. This we know for a fact and hence the derivation is correct.

SO, there we go.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 04:57

As getting one calculation may be by chance(fluke), repeat the calculations by making RShabha of kharaharapriya the new ShaDja. The calculations show that tODi will be the new rAga which again is accurate.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Jan 2007, 04:59

Nice explanation

Must try myself to understand better.

ranjani · Post by **ranjani** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:10

Very interesting.Does this approach work for janya ragas also?
-ranjani

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:12

ranjani wrote:Very interesting.Does this approach work for janya ragas also?
-ranjani

It should work. Try and post an example Suji. Take up mOhana.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:16

I use a different method which is much easier. It is different from the alternative method(binary method) mentioned in that article. I will explain that later.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:22

drshrikaanth wrote:It should work. Try and post an example Suji. Take up mOhana.

So I have to keep the original Sruti (from the box)the same while playing right?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:25

Suji
Forget the Sruti. Just do the calculations. If you really want to know, the answer is No. The Sruti will change as that is what is meant by shifting the AdhAra ShaDja.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:27

Ok got it.

ranjani · Post by **ranjani** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:45

Here is my attempt:
S= 0, R1= 1, R2= 2, G2=3, G3=4, M1=5, M2#6, P=7, D1=8, D2=9, N2=10, N3=11, S*=12
MOHANAM
SR2G3PD2N2S*
0 2 3 7 9 10 12

Ok. Lets now make panchama the new tonic/AdhAra ShaDja.
Add 5 to the numerical values of all the swaras.
We now get the numbers 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17.
Upon dividing by 12, we get the remainders which is the new series as follows.
5, 7, 10, 0, 2, 4, 5
which is
M1, P, N2, S, R2, G3
i.e. S-R2-G3-M1-P-N2-S*

Is this correct?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 05:49

Ranjani 2 mistakes. First G3 value is 4, not 3. ALso, How did you end up getting a ShADava rAga from an auDava rAga? ANd you have shown niShAda for mOhana. That is incorrect. Rectify those errors.

ranjani · Post by **ranjani** » 11 Jan 2007, 06:21

Sorry, I was copying and modifying your example, and missed one. I had written my posting in a notepad document before posting here, but had wrongly written them donw.
2nd attempt:
Mohanam: S-R2-G3-P-D2-S*
Integers: 0,2,4,7,9,12
For panchama murchana, add 5 - results in 5, 7, 9, 12,14, 17
Dividing by 12, we get the remainders: 5, 7, 9, 0, 2, 5
This translates to: M1, P, D2, S, R2
i.e. New Raga scale is: S, R2, M1, P, D2, S
CORRECT?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 06:26

Good work. Correct. the new rAga, the pancama mUrchane of mOhana, is dEvakriya/SuddhasAvEri.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 06:39

That was an interesting lesson. Well done, teacher and student! This illustrates the algorithm quite well.
DRS, this scheme cannot work for ragas with vakra-swaras, or can it??