Let us learn some Sanskrit

Rsachi
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#51 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 08 Nov 2017, 08:35

Dear Sri. RSR, and Sri. Thanjavooran,
Wonderful.
I can contribute by adding the Samskrita word in Devanagari, IAST transliteration, gender, first 3 meanings and any etymology references if possible. My first choice will be Vamanrao Apte and second Monier Williams. In the next hour, I will share an example for a word from your list. If you approve, we can proceed on a time line.
I am really sorry for myself that I have not learnt Tamil/Tamizh - Reading and writing.
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Rsachi
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#52 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 08 Nov 2017, 09:16

Trial Entry as follows:

Tamizh words with Samskrita equivalents
Tamizh * Devanagari * IAST * Part of speech * Meaning

அபூர்வம் apporvam ( rare) * अपूर्व * apūrva * adjective * .{a-stem} 1.not preceded;2.strange;3.unknown
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RSR
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#53 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 08 Nov 2017, 19:08

Sri.R.Sachi, There are some adjectives too in the list. But it is not uncommon in tamil to use 'apporvam' as a noun too. 'apoorvamaana sangathi'. though not strictlly grammatical. This is just a trial to find the exact pronunciation. For instance 'dharmam' is written in thamizh as in thamizh. Tamil words cannot begin with any consonant except the first of ka,cha,ta,tha,pa etc. but sanskrit words abound beginning with soft variant. Moreover lot of trouble with the fourth variant ' ka, kka, ga, gha. The main purpose of this exercise is to get it straight. in devanagari script. I will be completing the tamil words list before the coming week. Later, we can arrange in alphabetical order and perhaps even make it an on-line tamil-sanskrit-english 'finder'. We can even extend the exercise ( I mean 'effort') to adjectives, verbs and adverbs. Almost all the nouns mentioned are 'concepts', So, no need to worry about gender. (neuter)
They all end in 'm' sound, if I am not mistaken. (ex) swadharmam , swaraajayam ,
soundhryam Primarily I want to know if this is correct.
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rshankar
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#54 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by rshankar » 08 Nov 2017, 20:29

svadharma - स्वधर्म (correct)
saundharya - सौन्धर्य (incorrect)
saundarya - सौन्दर्य (correct)
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Rsachi
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#55 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 08 Nov 2017, 22:21

RSR sir,
Please indicate the part of speech for Tamizh. My indication is purely for Samskrita.

Just saying apūrva will elicit the question, what is apūrva? That is why it is called an adjective.

Some names like Saundarya, Apūrva, are used for names etc. They are called anvarthas, because they are quality descriptors. They are proper nouns derived from adjectives.

Let us compile the list first... Using Excel will be a great idea. Even editable spreadsheets cane be uploaded in Google Docs.
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RSR
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#56 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 08 Nov 2017, 23:43

rshankar_ji, as there is no fourth sound in tamil, I am just using a simple phonetic scheme. ( this is an old controversy..kindly bear with me) My interest is not in transliteration in english. So, soundarya is not acceptable. ( i will pronounce it as in 'sound' ) soundharyam is soft dha . as in dhaanam . That is why I am requesting sanskrit word in devanagari script. ..My another more important doubt is ending in 'm'. Without the 'm', it sounds like an adjective. (in tamil-sanskrit usage) . For example, soundarya lahari . vs soundaryam. . karunaa saagaram kaarunyam as noun. , poorna swarajyam vs poornam . There is some vedic text if i remember right.
http://aumamen.com/mantra/om-purnamadah ... nti-mantra
poornam eva
Can we leave a sanskrit noun just hanging in air like poorna ?
gita slokam mentions 'swadharmam' . not swadharma . May I have clarification? Any reference in web for sanskrit nouns? tamilized sanskrit nouns end in 'm' sound. In strict grammatical sanskrit ,should we not add 'ha' (short'? aja (ha) , nara(ha) , yoga kshemam moksham. arttham dharmam swaadheenam
raajya or raajyam ? raama raajyam in tamilized sanskrit. ( I think, it sounds sweet).
nardhanam or nardhana? This is how sanskrit nouns are written in thamizh religious books that I have read. Please correct me. .
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Rsachi
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#57 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 08 Nov 2017, 23:57

Sir,
Samskrita nouns have 8 cases=declension.
svadharmam is accusative case.
The declensions of dharma are:
Masculine Singular Dual Plural
Nominative dharmaḥ dharmau dharmāḥ
Vocative dharma dharmau dharmāḥ
Accusative dharmam dharmau dharmān
Instrumental dharmeṇa dharmābhyām dharmaiḥ
Dative dharmāya dharmābhyām dharmebhyaḥ
Ablative dharmāt dharmābhyām dharmebhyaḥ
Genitive dharmasya dharmayoḥ dharmāṇām
Locative dharme dharmayoḥ dharmeṣu

In bhagavdgīta, dharmaḥ, dharmam, dharmān, dharme... come. All different cases.
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rshankar
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#58 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by rshankar » 09 Nov 2017, 02:54

But it would be totally incorrect to pronounce dharma/धर्म (in any of the 8 cases) as दर्म ..... just as it would be wrong to pronounce दर (conch) as धर.
or svadharma/स्वधर्म as स्वदर्म.

All letters have a purpose/sound (they are after all, imperishable - i.e, akshara/अक्षर), to be brought out in pronunciation, however nuanced it be: the letter ष is as much a retro-flexed consonant (to be pronounced with the tongue rolled back on itself) as ट, ठ, ड, ढ, and ण are for example, and distinct from श in pronunciation.....so, pronouncing मीनाक्षी (क्ष = क् + ष) as मीनाक्शी is not correct....the written form should therefore convey the pronunciation unambiguously....
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thanjavooran
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#59 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by thanjavooran » 09 Nov 2017, 07:31

Rshankar,
Thanks. We learn a lot. Quite interesting. In school days Bhandarkar was the only authoritative reference.
Thanjavooran
09 11 2011
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RSR
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#60 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 09 Nov 2017, 15:00

I entirely agree with Shankar_ji. In fact, that is precisely what I need help in. Unlike all the other Indian languages, Tamil lacks separate letters for the four variants. and this leads to wrong pronunciation. English transliteration scheme may not be useful for getting the sound effect as spoken by tamils ( using occasional sanskrit words).Hence my request for sanskrit term in devanagari script.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sachi Sir, just treat all the words given by me as 'conceptual nouns'. The english equivalents like justice, duty, travel, sacrifice, valour, courage, lotus, welfare, and so singular ( and neuter). For example, when we consider the word for 'flower' ( pushpam) it is enough if we know the word in sanskrit ( devanagari letters). We will go into grammar after picking up vocabulary of a thousand nouns with correct writing and pronunciation. ....( my understanding is .... words ending in 'm' sound, have two different contexts. One as plain noun and the other as in case. Let us consider the names of famous plays of Kalidasa. Saakunthalam, Raghuvamsam, Kumarasambavam, Megasandhesam, etc. These are all just nouns. but not in '... devaki paramaanandham krushnam vandhe jagath gurum'. meaning I worship him. in tamil 'avarai' vanabukiren' . I am adding 100 more words ( 99% nouns only).today. (set 4)
https://sites.google.com/site/rsrtrials ... /third-set
kindly have a look to understand what I am trying to get help for. Best Regards.
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RSR
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#61 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 09 Nov 2017, 15:03

is it not rama(ha) , ramou and raamaaha?
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Rsachi
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#62 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 09 Nov 2017, 16:50

RSR sir,
I think I understood your effort rightaway.
The part of speech indicator in Samskrita is given so we know if a word is a noun category with its own gender (declined accordingly), or verb category with no gender (but huge variety of forms in conjugation ☺️) or adjective which follows the noun (and thus declined similarly), or an indeclinable (no conjugation or declension).

In "devakīparamānandaṃ kṛṣṇaṃ vande jagadgurum" , three words are declined as nouns, one is a verb. The original noun is kṛṣṇaṃ, devakīparamānandaṃ and jagadgurum are qualifiers.

I feel we have no deal-breaker here, we can continue the exercise, I suggest you tolerate the part of speech column for Samskrita. Add any description or meaning you deem fit as in Tamil. . Even the Tamil transliteration you put in there should not be debated in the first pass... It can always be tweaked later.

When you have a bunch of words complete d in a list or an Excel table, send me the link if you want me to add those columns I out it as a trial case.
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RSR
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#63 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 09 Nov 2017, 22:13

Sachi Sir, Excuse me. The noun in that sentence is not specifically mentioned. but is the worshiper. Whom does he worship?
he worships Lord Krushna . ( krushnam)
Lord Krushna is the 'delight of Devaki'. In poetic usage, it is not Deavaki's but simply devaki paramaanandham. ( paramaanadham can be taken as a noun. The delight of devaki.. and also as 'paramaanandham tharupavanai'
Krushna is also Jagath Guru. What lovely lines!
वसुदेवसुतं देवं कंस चाणूर मर्दनम् ।
देवकीपरमानन्दं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

अतसी पुष्प सङ्काशं हार नूपुर शोभितम् ।
रत्नकङ्कण केयूरं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

कुटिलालक संयुक्तं पूर्णचन्द्र निभाननम् ।
विलसत्कुण्डलधरं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरम् ॥

मन्दार गन्ध संयुक्तं चारुहासं चतुर्भुजम् ।
बर्हिपिञ्छाव चूडाङ्गं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

उत्फुल्लपद्मपत्राक्षं नील जीमूत सन्निभम् ।
यादवानां शिरोरत्नं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

रुक्मिणीकेलिसंयुक्तं पीताम्बर सुशोभितम् ।
अवाप्त तुलसी गन्धं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

गोपिकानां कुचद्वन्द कुङ्कुमाङ्कित वक्षसम् ।
श्रीनिकेतं महेष्वासं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

श्रीवत्साङ्कं महोरस्कं वनमाला विराजितम् ।
शङ्खचक्रधरं देवं कृष्णं वन्दे जगद्गुरुम् ॥

कृष्णाष्टकमिदंपुण्यं प्रातरुत्थाय यः पठेत् ।
कोटिजन्मकृतं पापं स्मरणेन विनश्यति ॥

It will be a nice lesson in fact to separate the words correctly and give meaning in English.

Incidentally, the 4th list is ready. You can edit and add the sanskrit words there itself. I am adding your name as collaborator . ( with your kind permission) .
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Rsachi
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#64 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 09 Nov 2017, 22:40

We have some disconnects here.


Noun can be the subject or object.
I is implied here as the subject.

In Samskrita, vande immediately brings I as it is in uttama puruṣa laṭ lakāra.

A noun can be in Samskrita him, his, from him, in him, by him, etc. They are all declensions of he the noun (here a pronoun).

Subject in Samskrita is called kartṛu. Object is karma. Verb is kriyā.

Anyway I wish you the best in your endeavours, sir. Don't worry about Samskrita grammar. Your project is to compile the Samskrita equivalents and their meanings, I think. I will make certain I will follow the Samskrita rules.

I also love kṛṣṇāṣṭakam.
viewtopic.php?t=33#p260

I shall look at your list presently.
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RSR
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#65 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 10 Nov 2017, 17:29

Respected Sachi Sir, Thank you for the translation of the sthothram.
I am attuned to English grammar more than that of Sanskrit. For example, Tragedy is noun. Tragic -adjective, tragically -adverb. It will be easier for all if we follow that pattern. Though all the Indian languages (except Tamil) have adopted the 4 sounds-consonant pattern of Sanskrit, they do not follow the other rules like singular-dual-many . and it is rather weird to assign gender to 'conceptual' nouns like welfare, tragedy, history etc. No disrespect meant. Let us keep it ultra-simple . Let us not overwhelm the new learners coming from tamil background. I need your email-id to include you as a collaborator with privileges to edit the pages. Kindly write to me ( [email protected]). I can then add the mail id to the page. ) I tried contact link but not effective.
sample-> பூர்வஜென்மம் poorvajanmam (previous birth) पूर्व जन्मम्
harvard -kyoto
http://greenmesg.org/sanskrit_online_to ... ng_pad.php
1)பிராப்தம் , praaptham प्राप्थम्
As I do not know sanskrit well, my kyoto input may not be correct. That is where the help from a learned sanskrit scholar like you can help. That much is sufficient. It helps you in avoiding much typing. The link is really useful.
I located the link just a few minutes back. I am thinking of sparing you the time and effort in typing the words in harvard-kyoto by trying that myself. You can then just check up and give the correct devanagari word where needed. Best Regards.
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kvchellappa
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#66 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by kvchellappa » 10 Nov 2017, 18:51

प्राप्तं
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kvchellappa
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#67 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by kvchellappa » 10 Nov 2017, 18:58

अपूर्वं is also in vogue
अपूर्वं कोपि कोशोयं विद्यते तव भारति।
व्ययतो वर्धमायाति क्षयमायाति संचयात्॥
In Tamizh, we use the word for rare (sometimes corrupted as apuroopam), but that meaning does not appear in Samskrtam.

When an adjective is used as a noun (anvartha vide 55), it is called guna Ahupeyar in Tamizh.
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RSR
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#68 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 10 Nov 2017, 21:47

punarapi jananaṁ punarapi maraṇaṁ
punarapi jananī jaṭhare śayanam |
पुनरपि जननं पुनरपि मरणं
पुनरपि जननीजठरे शयनम् ।
. (jananam, maranam, sayanam ..are they not all nouns?) . Any convention why jananam and maranam are written in sanskrit with a dot over 'm' but differently in s'ayanam?
May I have clarification?
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RSR
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#69 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 10 Nov 2017, 21:52

Welcome Chellappa Sir. This topic of sanskrit words commonly used in thamizh speech and writing will be enriched by native Thamizh speakers and writers. Thank you. Why not join as collaborator of the page?
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Rsachi
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#70 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 10 Nov 2017, 22:18

RSR sir,
I have to break a terrible news to you. I am an absolute novice and a primary level student of Samskrita. But somehow I think I have figured out a few things relevant to be of service to you.
That's all. Let's move on, please. You will be the owner of the output and you can always edit my entries.
Let's move on.
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rshankar
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#71 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by rshankar » 10 Nov 2017, 22:58

praaptham प्राप्थम
प्राप्थ is not a word in saMskRtam - प्राप्त (attained/reached etc.) exists. But I am not sure if the use of prAptam/pirAptam (ப்ராப்தம்/பிராப்தம்) to indicate 'destiny' or 'destined' exist in saMskRtam.
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RSR
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#72 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 10 Nov 2017, 23:35

@71...Shankar_ji, I have just listed the words which 'sound' 'sanskritized' This word is used very frequently in tamil society ' avanukku ப்ராப்தம் illai! meaning 'hard luck' . I am intrigued how else such words have entered tamil speech especially among brahmins. Kindly indicate the words which are not of sanskrit base. . Is the word used in this sense in the other south indian languages? It will be a great help if you go through the words and suggest the right sanskrit words from the meaning meant. My transliteration is just an attempt as it is spoken. If you give the Kyoto atleast I can find the sanskrit word .Is there any on-line sanskrit to english translator ( except tamil-cube)?
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RSR
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#73 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by RSR » 10 Nov 2017, 23:39

and English to sanskrit translator?
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rshankar
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#74 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by rshankar » 11 Nov 2017, 00:35

avanukku ப்ராப்தம் illai probably means "it is not destined for him"....it probably came about through the original meaning, i.e., he cannot achieve it....and over time destiny became one of the meanings for the word in tamizh, but it did not get back into saMskRtam. It doesn't mean that the word did not come from saMskRtam to begin with, but it's evolution in tamizh may have been different....
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Rsachi
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#75 Re: Let us learn some Sanskrit

Post by Rsachi » 11 Nov 2017, 02:48

प्रारब्ध
pra+aarabdha means begun, commenced, fate or destiny. It refers to the action of past janma karma that has begun to take effect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prarabdha_karma
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