क्ष pronunciation

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kvchellappa
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#1 क्ष pronunciation

Post by kvchellappa » 15 Sep 2014, 13:48

क्ष
As I write this someone is singing annapurne viasalakshi. Actually she sings Visalatchi. Most people (Tamizh?) sing that way as if it is ட்சி (tchi) not क्षि. I wonder if it is the universal pronunciation.
I am of the pedantic opinion that it is क्षि (kshi, in Samskritam a symbol has a fixed sound and compound letters stay true to the elements).
Perhaps it arises from the Tamizh words ஆட்சி, காட்சி (aatchi, kaatchi).
Can some one throw some light?
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Rsachi
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#2 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by Rsachi » 15 Sep 2014, 14:31

In Sanskrit and many other languages like Kannada, A KSHA remains a KSHA.

LAKSHMI
AKSHARA
PAKSHA
LAKSHA
VRUKSHA
DAKSHA
PAKSHI
VISHALAKSHI
DAKSHINAMURTHY
MOKSHA
KAAMAAKSHI
MEENAAKSHI
.....

Auto rikshaw
Manekshaw
Bakshish
.....
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VijayR
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#3 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by VijayR » 15 Sep 2014, 18:31

The correct pronunciation is, without a doubt, क्षि.
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VK RAMAN
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#4 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by VK RAMAN » 15 Sep 2014, 18:45

Tamil is limited in Consonants. Local Tamilians do not learn Sanskrit as a language in Schools; correct me if I am wrong. In Kerala Sanskrit is considered an optional first Language in our days and to pass SSLC higher scores were needed for English, Sanskrit, Malayalam and Hindi - Option Malayalam or Sanskrit.
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Sundara Rajan
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#5 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by Sundara Rajan » 16 Sep 2014, 10:35

There is no doubt that "kshi" must be pronounced as written- "Kshi" only. But there is no way to write the word correctly in pure tamil script, which is deficient in expressing many sanskrit sounds. "kshi"which is a compound letter formed by ik + shi. There is no letter "shi" in tamil. Letters sa, sha, ja, ha as used in tamil writing are not tamil letters. Tamil is not a complete phonetic language like sanskrit, no matter how much tamil chauvinists proclaim from roof tops. The pronunciation of many tamil words is dependent upon the context. For example my name Sundara Rajan, written in pure tamil could be read only as "Chunthara rAchan" ! Even sanskrit lacks letters to express a few sounds as F,Z,the last letter in Thamizh.
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keerthi
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#6 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by keerthi » 19 Sep 2014, 11:23

... there is no way to write the word correctly in pure tamil script, which is deficient in expressing many sanskrit sounds. "kshi"which is a compound letter formed by ik + shi.
....Tamil is not a complete phonetic language like sanskrit, no matter how much tamil chauvinists proclaim from roof tops.
... Even sanskrit lacks letters to express a few sounds as F,Z,the last letter in Thamizh.
It is high time we laid to rest arguments about the ‘incompleteness’ of one or the other script. A script that has organically evolved in parallel with a particular language, is only expected to represent the sounds that features in the phonological repertoire of that language.

It is not wise to conflate a language with one or the other script that is used to represent that language. The nAgari script is separate from Sanskrit. It is under no, repeat, NO obligation to represent sounds from Tamil or Urdu or Senegalese. The same is true for the Tamil script. It doesn’t have to struggle to represents sounds from Sanskrit (or other languages).

Any such problems are encountered by people who write and read a language in scripts that do not have a shared history with the language. Don’t read Sanskrit in Tamil transliteration, don’t read Tamil or Urdu transliteration, and hey presto! the problem is solved.

It may be useful to notice the nature of the kSa samyuktAkSara – It is a conjunct of K- and S- [the S of SaNmukha, not the sh of shankara]. Many many speakers of the Indic languages do not distinguish between the tAlavya [palatal] sha and the mUrdhanya [retroflex]Sa. As a consequence along with the vishAlAtchi wrong pronunciation, there is another vishAlAkshi mispronunciation.

For those of us who are finicky about the distinction, there are rare artistes like MDR and KVN, in whose good quality recordings, one can discern the difference. For instance when KVN sings shESAcalanAyakam – with the two phonemes sha and Sa appearing in succession, it is a delight. The same is true when he sang the sAma song annapUrNe vishAlAkSi or mInAkSi me mudam dEhi.

Hence, pakSisha [or pakSIza i you will] is a good example for the kSa phoneme, not bakshIsh.
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Rsachi
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#7 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by Rsachi » 19 Sep 2014, 14:38

Keerthi,
Thanks.
Your drawing attention to the difference between z and S is timely.

Once I was with KVN when the topic came up about whether it was vasiSTha or vaziSTha. I said that both forms were valid per my understanding. He was not convinced. I attach a scan of the page from the exact copy of the Apte dictionary I went and bought in Higginbothams just to get some printed evidence for him. He was still not convinced. We went to TS bAlakRSNa zAstrigal and KVN was satisfied after his clarification.
Image
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keerthi
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#8 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by keerthi » 19 Sep 2014, 17:27

Sachi,

Nice. This further goes to prove how seriously he took the business of correct pronunciation. KVN is a study in excellence, especially when it came to mellowing the pronunciation of the plosives, harsh consonants and the gutturals [karkasha vyanjana], without compromising on the fidelity of either phonetics or musicality.
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srkris
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#9 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by srkris » 25 Sep 2014, 02:23

kṣi காக்ஷி (kā+akṣi), meaning 'glance', is the correct sanskrit word (akṣa = eye), but that becomes kāṭci (காட்சி) in colloquial tamil pronunciation, just as akṣaram becomes aṭcaram (அட்சரம்), pakṣi becomes paṭci (பட்சி), bhikṣā becomes piṭcai (பிட்சை/பிச்சை), pakṣam (பக்ஷம்) becomes paṭcam (பட்சம்)etc.

So there is a clear sound shift from kṣ க்ஷ to ṭc ட்ச in words borrwed by Tamil from Sanskrit (as it is a close approximation of the original).

It may be possible to hypothesize generally that all Tamil words involving the consonant cluster ட்ச are borrowed from Sanskrit.
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arasi
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#10 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by arasi » 25 Sep 2014, 07:26

I see.
So, இருவாட்சி, சாட்சி, பட்சபாதம், பட்சணம், லட்சணம், ஆட்சி...

மாட்சி?? Is it from vaDa mozhi?
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keerthi
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#11 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by keerthi » 26 Sep 2014, 12:21

srkris,

I am not sure of the kAkSi example. I have never come across this term in SanskRt. all the other illustrations you give are correct. This kS into Tc, however is a consistent rule for transformation of Sanskrit words that enter Tamil.

arasi,

ATci, tiraTci,veTci etc are examples of terms that seem to be purely of Dravidian origin.
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sridhar_ranga
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#12 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by sridhar_ranga » 26 Sep 2014, 14:07

The sandhi of L+C leads to Tc in Tamil. This may be the case with most ட்ச occurrences other than words of Sanskrit origin

e.g.

1. poruL + cuvai = poruTcuvai
2. aruL + celvan = aruTcelvan (Tamil for Karunaanidhi! )

Even words like vaRaTci (from varaLudal), puraTci (puraLudal?), mITci (mILudal) may have come about, taking this L+c route.

ATci must have ALudal as its root.

Could kATci have come from 'kANudal' and mATci from 'mANbu' ? If so there is an N+c scenario to be investigated :)
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sridhar_ranga
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#13 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by sridhar_ranga » 26 Sep 2014, 14:21

Oh yeah, just found that N+c = Tc occurs too!

maN + cuvar = maTcuvar
kaN + cevi = kaTcevi (?)

seems to apply to other sandhis of N + some other letter as well:

maN + pANDam = maTpANDam
kaN + pulan = kaTpulan (?)

There may be a few other letters apart from L, N that turn into T upon sandhi.
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Pratyaksham Bala
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#14 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by Pratyaksham Bala » 26 Sep 2014, 20:37

மண் + கலம் = மட்கலம்
மண் + தாழி = மட்டாழி

கள் + குடம் = கட்குடம்
ஆள் + படை = ஆட்படை
முள் + தாழை = முட்டாழை

பூழ் + கை = பூட்கை
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arasi
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#15 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by arasi » 26 Sep 2014, 23:58

மட்டாழி, முட்டாழி sound way out, may be because we don't use those words!
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bhikambhat
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#16 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by bhikambhat » 27 Apr 2017, 12:51

क् + ष् + अ = क्ष
most people pronounce it क्श
some folks just utter a श, e.g. instead of क्षमा, they’d just say शमा which sounds like the urdu word शम'अ which means a candle or a lamp
for pronunciation of ष, check this out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless ... x_sibilant

similarly, almost everywhere
they mispronounce ज्ञ
e.g. in the east, विज्ञान is enounced बिज्जान
in the north, they say ग्यान in place of ज्ञान
& ग्नान in the west, like यग्न for यज्ञ
& in the south, they say द्न्यानेश्वर for ज्ञानेश्वर
ज्ञ = ज् + ञ् + अ
check out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_nasal
for ञ
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Sachi_R
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#17 Re: क्ष pronunciation

Post by Sachi_R » 27 Apr 2017, 14:38

👍
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