udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

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RSR
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#1 udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 21 Feb 2018, 20:18

May I know if the ragam udhaya ravichandrika is exactly same as suddhadhanyasi? I am having in mind enthanerchina by D.K.P as ref for the first mentioned and GNB's himagiri thanaye for the second mentioned. Of course, I love both the songs but the pace , mood and range of these two seem slightly different. Am I the only person to feel so?Any explanation ?
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bhakthim dehi
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#2 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by bhakthim dehi » 22 Feb 2018, 08:26

Both are different, but old ragas.
After the advent of Sangraha Chudamani, they were treated as a same ragam which is definitely a mistake.
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sureshvv
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#3 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by sureshvv » 22 Feb 2018, 09:40

They use different Nis.
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RSR
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#4 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 22 Feb 2018, 19:19

@2, @3-> Thank you ,Sirs, for the clarification.
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#5 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by sureshvv » 22 Feb 2018, 22:27

I have heard Ente Nerchina only in Suddha Danyasi. Has this been rendered in udaya ravichandrika? Any links?
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RSR
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#6 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 22 Feb 2018, 23:24

@5-> sureshvv
I do not know much about the intricacies of ragam differentiation. That is why I sought the help of experts.
My source is just wiki etc.
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... thyagaraja
( kindly see the note in 'fine print'. ) After hearing, kindly enlighten me.
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#7 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by bhakthim dehi » 23 Feb 2018, 08:49

Why should enta nerchina be rendered in Udayaravichandrika when it was composed in Suddha dhanyasi?
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Ranganayaki
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#8 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 26 Feb 2018, 10:55

bhakthim dehi wrote:
23 Feb 2018, 08:49
Why should enta nerchina be rendered in Udayaravichandrika when it was composed in Suddha dhanyasi?
There is a YouTube video of a lecdem on this subject by Sri SRJ. He says that Udayaravichandrika had an independent existence (as Bhaktim dehi mentioned) prior to the trinity, but it uses a N3. Muthuswami Dikshitar too has used this raga with a prominent N3, he says. It was later erroneously classified under Natabhairavi, causing the error, as it was therefore assumed to have a N2, mistakenly making it identical to shuddha dhanyasi. So it seems Entanerchina should be listed as being in SD and not Udayaravichandrika, as it doesn't use a N3.

So to be clear, Entanerchina is not rendered in Udayaravichandrika, they render it in SD, but erroneously call it Udayaravichandrika.

Udayaravichandrika with its N3 does not resemble SD at all, and does not bring it to mind.
I am having in mind enthanerchina by D.K.P as ref for the first mentioned and GNB's himagiri thanaye for the second mentioned. Of course, I love both the songs but the pace , mood and range of these two seem slightly different. Am I the only person to feel so?Any explanation ?
RSR, Both the songs are in the same raga, SD.
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RSR
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#9 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 26 Feb 2018, 12:03

Ranaganayaki. Thanks for clarification. Names of the ragams apart, somehow, the two songs sound different. I will search further.. ( though, it is not unusual to find kruthis in the same ragam, differeing inntheir bhaavam)
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#10 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 26 Feb 2018, 12:53

from a blog by sai-dvk: http://saidvk.blogspot.in/2013/02/selec ... drika.html
"I have discussed briefly about this ragam in my write up on Suddha Dhanyasi. They look alike with only a minor variation in the Nishadam and the swaras are
Suddha Dhanyāsi S G2 M1 P N2 S
S N2 P M1 G2 S
Udhaya Ravi Candrikā S G2 M1 P N3 S
S N3 P M1 G2 S
While the former is a Janya of Karaharapriya, the latter originates from Dhenuka. According to experts, the former is sung with lot of gamakas whereas the latter is always presented with plain notes. Many of the songs which I have already presented in Suddha Dhanyasi are also listed under Udhaya Ravi Chandrika, including the master piece Ente ner china. Those who want to get more info on this subject, are requested to see the famous musicologist Dr SR Janakiraman's talk in the following link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUJtEgBS6k
is it confirmed that DKP song is using N2?
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#11 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 26 Feb 2018, 13:28

sai-dvk lists the song as of suddhadhanyasi/ udhayaravichandrika ? is that correct?
"
Perhaps the most famous Tamil song in this ragam is the one known more to the Hindi film music lovers- En singthai noyum theerumaa is from the Tamil film Kaaveri. Don't ask me who copied whom- you know the answer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODjPNvmvHWM
The Hindi version is synonymous with the best of Lata songs- Yeh Zindagi usi ki hai from Anarkali
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na2VxqcsvQo
My categorical opinion is that there is absolutely no similarity between Suddhadhanyasi and the Anarkali classic. If anything, it has striking resemblance to Beemplas, But then there are variations into other ragams also, in that great composition by CRamachandra.
Last edited by RSR on 26 Feb 2018, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Ranganayaki
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#12 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 26 Feb 2018, 20:29

RSR wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 12:53
farom a blog by sai-dvk: http://saidvk.blogspot.in/2013/02/selec ... drika.html
"I have discussed briefly about this ragam in my write up on Suddha Dhanyasi. They look alike with only a minor variation in the Nishadam and the swaras are
Suddha Dhanyāsi S G2 M1 P N2 S
S N2 P M1 G2 S
Udhaya Ravi Candrikā S G2 M1 P N3 S
S N3 P M1 G2 S
While the former is a Janya of Karaharapriya, the latter originates from Dhenuka. According to experts, the former is sung with lot of gamakas whereas the latter is always presented with plain notes. Many of the songs which I have already presented in Suddha Dhanyasi are also listed under Udhaya Ravi Chandrika, including the master piece Ente ner china. Those who want to get more info on this subject, are requested to see the famous musicologist Dr SR Janakiraman's talk in the following link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUJtEgBS6k
is it confirmed that DKP song is using N2?
RSR, I am trying to understand the last sentence. Since there are no questions in the blog, I am thinking it is your question and not a part of the blog, but I am not sure which song of DKP's you are referring to. In any case, no one sings Entanerchina with a high Ni. It is SD.
sai-dvk lists the song as of suddhadhanyasi/ udhayaravichandrika ? is that correct?
Which song are you referring to? From my understanding of Sri SRJ's lecdem it is WRONG to conflate the two ragas. Any listing with a "/" in this context is erroneous. So it doesn't seem to matter which song you are referring to. But do provide the link to the song if you like.

The blogger says the two ragams
look alike with only a minor variation in the Nishadham.
There are hundreds of ragas which differ from other ragas by just one swarasthana (two consecutive ri or ga or ma, etc.). But we do not conflate them and these pairs are most often very well distinguished from each other while delineating these ragas in alapanas as well as compositions. So I disagree that these two ragas are "alike with only a minor variation."
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RSR
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#13 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 26 Feb 2018, 22:26

@12
Ranganayaki wrote
RSR, I am trying to understand the last sentence. Since there are no questions in the blog, I am thinking it is your question and not a part of the blog, but I am not sure which song of DKP's you are referring to
I had given the link to the song. , at #6 . Kindly visit the page, hear the song and then enlighten me.
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... thyagaraja
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. The question was by me. Not the blogger. I find that many bloggers err , too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The confusion about the two ragams seems to be widespread. I have come across similar view in many sites. You can hear the song in the above link, and of course, GNB song. I am sure that they differ. If GNB song is SuddhaDhanyasi, DKP song cannot be of the same ragam.
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#14 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 27 Feb 2018, 01:08

RSR wrote:
26 Feb 2018, 22:26

The confusion about the two ragams seems to be widespread. I have come across similar view in many sites. You can hear the song in the above link, and of course, GNB song. I am sure that they differ. If GNB song is SuddhaDhanyasi, DKP song cannot be of the same ragam.
RSR, in your last sentence, you are incorrect. They are the same ragam. Both songs are well-known, both songs are sung in Shuddha Dhanyasi. But your impression is understandable. You don't experience the similarity probably because of the mood of the songs are different, just as you said. I think entanerchina is a complaint, or a lament, while Himagiri is joyful praise of a goddess. And the composers have chosen approaches to express that. Entanerchina stays quite a lot in the lower to middle notes, while himagiri remains at the higher notes, only briefly touching the poorvanga swaras.

The tempo is also different. The lament is slower and the praise is quite up-beat, and quicker.

I don't know if you can sing more or less correctly. If you sing the pallavi of Entanerchina while gnb sings the first line of the charanam (lower notes there) you might be able to hear the similarity. Otherwise you can sing himagiri's pallavi when dkp sings the higher note anupallavi of Entanerchina.

Anyway there is no doubt that the two songs are in the same raga. In any case, I cannot help you with this question any further.

This blogger says,
Puritans, however, refer to the fact that Udayaravichandrika is an ancient raga in the Venkatamakhin tradition and
He is wrong. It seems it is not "puritans," but people who who are not ignorant who make the distinction. If one doesn't make the distinction, one will have to sing Muthuswami Dikshitar's works set to Udayaravichandrika using Shuddha Dhanyasi. And that won't be right.

Frankly I would trust a reputed musicologist over an enthusiastic blogger. 🙂
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#15 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 27 Feb 2018, 16:10

My request..As I have given link to DKP song, it can be verified very easily ( especially in a musical instrument) if it is using the specified N for udhayaravichandrika or it uses, that of suddhadhanyasi, the issue is clinched. Any way, perhaps a composition in URC by Dikshithar may help.
http://nadhasudharasa.blogspot.in/2010/ ... drika.html
( kindly ignore paras not relevant to the discussion in the blog cited here)
-----------------------------------------------------
quote from the blog follows:
shrI guruguhamUrtE - udayaravicandrikA

"Before I get into the masterpiece, I would like to clarify a few confusions regarding the raga udayaravicandrika itself, the chief one being the claim that Suddha dhanyAsi and udayaravicandrika are one and the same.
Udayaravicandrika (referred to as URC henceforth) is cleverly classified as an upAnga janya of the 9th mELakartha dhunibhinnasadjam (dhEnuka as per the other school) with the scale: sgmpns;snpmgs. Hence, URC employs a kAkali niSAda. Suddha dhanyAsi (referred to as SD henceforth) on the other hand is classified as an upAnga janya of the 22nd mELa, shri rAga and hence makes use of the kaiSiki niSAda. This is the only significant difference between the 2 rAgas and SubbarAma dIkshitar highlights this clearly while explaining the rAga lakSaNa of SD in the SSP. URC is also known as Srothaswini. However, the fact that the tyAgarAja school also used the name URC while referring to SD complicated the matters and somehow this seems to have stuck with the people after the trinity's times and this niSAda disctinction between the 2 rAgas seems to have completely disappeared with people saying that URC and SD are one and the same. And with this beautiful composition of dIkshitar being neglected in the concert arena (except for a few artists like Vedavalli maami), the original URC as per the dIkshitar school has successfully been buried in its grave.
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#16 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 27 Feb 2018, 18:32

RSR wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 16:10
My request..
RSR, you quoted, but I'm not sure what your request is. You attached the most relevant part of the write-up and I didn't actually need the link beyond that. I thought the blog might contain some audio, but it does not. So I'm not sure what your request is. I agree with the part that you have quoted. However, SRJ does sing the song in part two of his lecdem .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCP-o3ctm1o

Please check it out, you hear the difference.

Look for the PNS of Hamsadhwani, if you will, same Ni. I will see if I can point you to some instances of kakali nishadha myself later in the day.
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RSR
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#17 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 27 Feb 2018, 20:45

@16-> RANGANAYAKI... =-> Thank you. This may be the song by Smt.VEDAVALLI, that the blogger is referring to.
https://youtu.be/2-rOdhrqPbs
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#18 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 28 Feb 2018, 05:30

I've heard these, RSR. I'm interested in your views/experience. Did you listen to URC by SRJ? Are you able to tell the difference between the two ragas? Are you able to see that the two different SD songs are actually the same raga?
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#19 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 28 Feb 2018, 21:14

@18->Ranganayaki-> Yes. I visited the page. Could not benefit much, however. (inability to notice nice nuances due to less sensitive hearing ( I am trying to convert it into plain HD with just the audio. Aversion to visuals except in rare cases) I am managing with all the songs in memory only. .From all my search, most writers are of the opinion that DKP song and GNB song are of the same ragam, Suddhadhanyasi. So many, cannot be wrung. So, we will take Smt.Vedavalli's Dikshithar song as URC .I am able to get MS rendering of Suddhadhanyasi .I am however still puzzled by the film songs in tamil and hindi mentioned of this ragam , in their blogs. No resemblance at all! Revolting. I said in my opening post that I love both the DKP and GNB songs. I lied! . DKP song only, brings out the true nature of the ragam. So, sublime! I suppose, only when a ragam is sung in slow pace, its real nature is revealed. ..Thank you for your patience.
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#20 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by RSR » 28 Feb 2018, 22:28

viewtopic.php?t=7822
=================================================================
These two songs rendered by Smt.MS, may be of relevance.
Narayana Ninna Namada"(Purandharadasa)https://youtu.be/3Q-HLaEb2lg

https://open.spotify.com/track/27isfxRGyhWL1gLiMLjTmD (Annamacharya) Bavamulona
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shankarank
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#21 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by shankarank » 02 Mar 2018, 19:50

Ranganayaki wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 05:30
I've heard these, RSR. I'm interested in your views/experience. Did you listen to URC by SRJ? Are you able to tell the difference between the two ragas? Are you able to see that the two different SD songs are actually the same raga?
He does emit N3 plain.. and shows the dissonance between the tetra-chords clearly. Somewhat contrary to what he mentioned, he does travel beyond at least Vijayawada in the way he intones, and what holds him south, musically, are the intervals in the composition! And I suppose dIkshitar also travelled beyond Vijayawada.

He does ask for forgiveness for deviating from the pATantaram of his Guru Sri tiruppAbaram svAminAtha piLLai.
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#22 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 02 Mar 2018, 21:17

RSR wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 21:14
@18->Ranganayaki-> Yes. I visited the page. Could not benefit much, however. (inability to notice nice nuances due to less sensitive hearing ( I am trying to convert it into plain HD with just the audio. Aversion to visuals except in rare cases)
I'm sorry to learn of your hearing difficulty. It must be very frustrating, especially when you are trying to appreciate finer distinctions.
I am however still puzzled by the film songs in tamil and hindi mentioned of this ragam , in their blogs. No resemblance at all! Revolting.


I am not completely sure if yeh zingage can be considered as SD. I am positive I heard a dha. There is one in "Jo kisee." (Anyone correct me if I'm wrong) But movie songs take liberties with ragas, so I can't tell. I did not listen very intently.

But revolting?? What did you find revolting?
..Thank you for your patience.
You are welcome, but I am not sure what you mean, did not have to exercise patience at all 🙂!!
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#23 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 02 Mar 2018, 21:29

shankarank wrote:
02 Mar 2018, 19:50


and shows the dissonance between the tetra-chords clearly.
I'm not sure what you mean. If I understand dissonance in Carnatic music, it occurs between neighboring notes. What do you mean by dissonance between tetrachords? And I don't think there are any tetrachords in Urc. Please explain, I'm confused by your comment.
Somewhat contrary to what he mentioned, he does travel beyond at least Vijayawada in the way he intones, and what holds him south, musically, are the intervals in the composition! And I suppose dIkshitar also travelled beyond Vijayawada.
Please explain, I am not able to make sense of this. Do you mean he tends to sound as though he is singing Hindustani? Where?

What is the meaning of "holding someone south?"

What do you mean by "intervals in the composition?"

Thanks.
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#24 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by shankarank » 03 Mar 2018, 08:52

Ranganayaki wrote:
02 Mar 2018, 21:29
And I don't think there are any tetrachords in Urc.
Trying to get me on technicalities? As musicologists say the absence of a note is as musically significant as it's presence :twisted: . So all notes count -all 4 ;)
Ranganayaki wrote:
02 Mar 2018, 21:29
dissonance in Carnatic music, it occurs between neighboring notes.
What do you mean by dissonance between tetrachords?
In a Sruti based system - there is the implicit samvAdi of N3 - G3 or M2 in the lower - especially pronounced when N3 is held so prominently steady, that one can make out implicit dissonance. That's what I meant by it. You won't hear it in amRtavarshini for example. I am not in the know of how this might be there in other musical systems. And I am not saying this with deep theory or education on our systems. Just something I seem to see!
Please explain, I am not able to make sense of this. Do you mean he tends to sound as though he is singing Hindustani? Where?
Just the way he sings N3 - the approach to it . In all his Lec Dems - whenever he sounds out rAgAs like this - that kind of sound I have not heard across the spectrum down South! And this is not just the Sruti/svara aspect, even if his deep sound emission - the volume or modulation of it!

It is clear that he is a musicologist!
Ranganayaki wrote:
02 Mar 2018, 21:29
What do you mean by "intervals in the composition?"
The flow and meter of compositions are as distinctive of "The Southern Music" as much as your "Notes". So it is not just all about holding "Notes" steady or shaking them!
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#25 Re: udaya ravichandrika -suddhadhanyasi

Post by Ranganayaki » 03 Mar 2018, 10:22

shankarank wrote:
03 Mar 2018, 08:52

Trying to get me on technicalities? As musicologists say the absence of a note is as musically significant as it's presence :twisted: . So all notes count -all 4 ;)
Do you try to "get" people here? I don't. I'm not an expert on technicalities, but I'm here to learn. I want your every word to make sense to me. So if there is a conflict between what I "know" and what you are saying, I'm going to ask. But you are antipodal to me in this regard. You love to obfuscate.

Clearly what you say about the absence of a note being significant is completely out of context. You can't state some random idea and use it to make your own definition of a tetrachord. It is very annoying when you butt into a dialogue with the aim of just confounding others. Are you a teenager who feels very important using "big" words, counting on the ignorance of others? It would be cute and understandable if you were a teenager!

In a Sruti based system - there is the implicit samvAdi of N3 - G3 or M2 in the lower - especially pronounced when N3 is held so prominently steady, that one can make out implicit dissonance.
What exactly is "implicit" dissonance? What does the first part of your sentence even mean?
there is the implicit samvAdi of N3 - G3 or M2 in the lower -
Also, your use of "samvadi" to mean dissonance is wrong, I'm afraid. If my very limited understanding is correct, samvadi is the opposite of dissonance, and refers to a note which is consonant with the Vadi. It has a pleasing and not a jarring effect. You have to rethink what you've written.

Just the way he sings N3 - the approach to it . In all his Lec Dems - whenever he sounds out rAgAs like this - that kind of sound I have not heard across the spectrum down South! And this is not just the Sruti/svara aspect, even if his deep sound emission - the volume or modulation of it!
Do you ever read what you write? How can you do this to people who read here? How can you? EVERYBODY here tells you you are impossible to understand. You ignore it all and you wAnt to be taken seriously! Do you do this in speech too? Do you have conversations with people where you just go to them and say things that make no sense? Don't you respect your interlocutors?
Ranganayaki wrote:
02 Mar 2018, 21:29
What do you mean by "intervals in the composition?"
The flow and meter of compositions are as distinctive of "The Southern Music" as much as your "Notes". So it is not just all about holding "Notes" steady or shaking them!
This clarifies nothing about SRJ's singing.
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