antara ga in aThANa (gMrS)

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 26 Mar 2008, 07:47

In some AlApanas of aThANa, antara Ga is used, typically in a 'gMrS' phrase in the tAra sthAyi with a nokku on Ga.

i. In which kRtis is this found?
ii. Does it ever occur in a an octave other than the tAra sthAyi?

If this has been discussed previously, please point to the thread. Thanks,

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Mar 2008, 08:03

controversial topic in the past (its the aTANA thread under Raga Alapana). At that time I did not know these answers. But now a bit more informed:

1. One sangati in mummUrtulu (pallavi) I believe uses g3
2. MDR's hariyum haranum uses it in more than one place.
3. I have seen notations for a Tanjore Quartette dance song where I think based on usage it would be G3.

All are in tara stayi.

Arun

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Mar 2008, 11:10

I heard a concert during the season in which the alaapana ended with a dramatic GMRS with a prolonged R...I thought it sounded very Kannada-ish and went back to look up the notations and I did notice that Deekshitar has used it on a few occasions..but I can't remmeber which. A glance at TKG should suffice...

BTW are we talking specifically about GMRS or G3 in general? Isn't that technically a part of Attana - at least my list says so...although I am not sure whether it is a Ri or a Ga or something in between!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Mar 2008, 11:32

Saw the discussion now...one would've thought no more dissection was possible after that utterly exhaustive/exhausting analysis...but there's always a new angle! Anyway, the discussion brings out clearly that 1) The identity of the Gandharam is not immediately evident and 2) It is usually used as an anuswara...that probably means a phrase emphasising the gandharam is not appropriate - which is what I thought when I heard that phrase in the example above...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Mar 2008, 17:46

vijay - no this is about a clear flat G3 (elongated) - not the other one which is gmrs where ga is like "r-m' combo. This flat one occurs mainly (and I guess only) in tara stayi. And yes depending on the context it would be like kannada.

I think SR is right in that other thread that this one does not occur in trinity krithis (as far as we know) i.e. as opposed to the other regular, but still alpa ga. The only exception (which i realized later) seems to that one sangati of mummUrtulu (although this is my perception and needs confirmation). But in contrast *many* alapanas and kalpanaswaras feature this elongated tara-g3.

PS: but I am not sure if this is what vainika meant now - as he says gMrs where ga with a nokku.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Mar 2008, 18:01

on second thoughts, i should have said - unambiguously G3 rather than flat G3 - when you hear this one, it is clearly G3.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Mar 2008, 23:41

Ok, quite clear now thanks...

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 27 Mar 2008, 06:55

two of our most knowledgable members discussing the subject. are not we blessed to be in their company. gobilalitha

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 28 Mar 2008, 04:18

arunk wrote:But in contrast *many* alapanas and kalpanaswaras feature this elongated tara-g3.
PS: but I am not sure if this is what vainika meant now - as he says gMrs where ga with a nokku.

Hmm...an elongated R would smack of kannaDa. Here's a sample with both non-nokkufied elongated G3 and nokkufied short G3 prayOgas. Both/neither acceptable?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:22

mmmm... quite delectable (of course my favorote raga)

Yes that first one (0:37-0:38) was what I was talking about. I could be wrong but it seems to feature in mummUrtulu. Take a listen to Ramnad Krishnan http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/vJX ... As1NMvHdW/ . Albeit here it is not flat (so perhaps the ga seems to give more of a G3 flavor)? I have heard others render where it seemed to have an even stronger 3 flavor. (again my perception).

Now in MDR's hariyum haranum (him singing it), whether it is sari pArtu (pallavi), paSupASa vimOcanan (anupallavi), vENDinAl aruLvAr (caranam) all seem to feature it - all basically in the context of the same prayoga. Again, I hope I am right

The other one also sounds fine but then I am no expert! All I know is that the first one does seem to feature in some renditions. I should correct my earlier assertion and say that I remember hearing it more in kalpanaswaras rather than necessarily in alapanas - atleast 3 or 4 (maybe more) when I was especially looking for it long ago.
Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 01 Apr 2008, 10:56

The subject has been visited in detail in the Athana thread started by me. While the minute details are available there, the fact still remains that entry of antara G is simply "tampering" with the original spirit of the raga, which to the best of our current knowledge is a type of kanada (not to be confused with kannada) raga. Maybe this similarity of nomenclature has confounded some of the musicians of yesteryear and motivated them to "tamper". Changing the shuddha dhaivata of hindustani kanada to chatussruti dhaivata is good, but trying to pull the same trick on the gandhara leads to a terribly jarring effect.

The gist of athana comes through in the following audio clips:

Thankfully, there are still some musicologists who give the concept of raga its due place !

http://www.sendspace.com/file/p9arjs

And thankfully, still some musicians who do so as well.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/l39iqg

(listen carefully to alapana 0:30 - 4:45, and kalpanaswara 10:30-13:20 to understand the raga and its relation to kanada).

SR

PS: Thanks to CML for providing these audio clips in the past.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 01 Apr 2008, 19:37

vainika wrote:Hmm...an elongated R would smack of kannaDa. Here's a sample with both non-nokkufied elongated G3 and nokkufied short G3 prayOgas. Both/neither acceptable?

Vainika,

Congratulations on an excellent athana alapana ! I listened to it yesterday and it still lingers in the memory. You have captured the raga very nicely. I realize you included the G3 as an example, but I hope the musicians will kindly consider dropping the antara G in performance of this raga as recommended by musicologists, since this svara does not do any service to the raga and is an interpolation.

Best Wishes,
SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Apr 2008, 01:10

BTW, the first link where the speaker explains aThANa ( who is the speaker, he had spoken very well, concise and confident ), he says that G3 used to be in vogue ( giving it a folky touch ) and but over time got 'refined' away and settled on 'G2' ( thus causing a switch from Dheerashankarabaranam to Kharaharapriya Mela ). So I guess the Musician's practise of using G3 in the tara sthayi is really not an interpolation in that sense but can be interpreted as paying homage to an old tradition.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Apr 2008, 03:36

That was V Subramaniam

who tore into Sowmya and gor bruised!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 02 Apr 2008, 03:55

vasanthakokilam wrote:BTW, the first link where the speaker explains aThANa ( who is the speaker, he had spoken very well, concise and confident ), he says that G3 used to be in vogue ( giving it a folky touch ) and but over time got 'refined' away and settled on 'G2' ( thus causing a switch from Dheerashankarabaranam to Kharaharapriya Mela ). So I guess the Musician's practise of using G3 in the tara sthayi is really not an interpolation in that sense but can be interpreted as paying homage to an old tradition.

At the risk of repeating the previous discussion - Subramaniam does not specify how "old" the "tradition" is. He is only referring to the last 200 years or so, which is when the interpolation occurred in some quarters (of uncertain specification).

It is not at all "old" in comparison to the length of time the raga has been in existence and from the well documented compositions of MD, T, and ST. And it was certainly not a" tradition" from what we know regarding the older texts.

As shown in detail previously, the available texts from 1550 CE do not show any such "traditions". To be fully clear: By no means was the raga athana originally (or in "olden times") a janya of shankarabharanam whether in North or in South India. The "interpolations" occurring in the more recent past and led to a misclassification as a shankarabharanam janya, an error which has now been corrected and we are back to where we were before and where we should be. This was the entire point of the previous discussion.

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Apr 2008, 04:12

Vainika
I liked your atana snippet. It sounds quite authentic (both). You seldom reach the purvanga and traverse primarily uttaranga and taaram which is characteristic in atana as SR had argued long ago! But I never was able to see Kanada in it as SR suggested. Maybe you can play such a 'contaminated' sample for clarification!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 02 Apr 2008, 04:58

Sangeet Rasik wrote:the available texts from 1550 CE do not show any such "traditions". To be fully clear: By no means was the raga athana originally (or in "olden times") a janya of shankarabharanam whether in North or in South India. The "interpolations" occurring in the more recent past and led to a misclassification as a shankarabharanam janya, an error which has now been corrected and we are back to where we were before and where we should be. This was the entire point of the previous discussion.

SR

SR,

As per R Satyanarayana, the very first mention of AthANA is in Ragavibodha - written in 1609 AD. It groups the rAga under karnATagouDa (34). Even other authors before Mudduvenkatamakhi have ckassified it variously under 29th or 28th mELas. Given this fact, I think it is entirely possible that there was antara gAndhAra prayOga in aThANa - Why do you think otherwise?

I will look at the other aThANA thread - That seems to date before I became an active member of Rasikas.org.

For the records - Prof R S says that AThana has definitley come from the aDANA of Persian music, and that it came to karnATaka sangIta through hindUstAni. All that gels well with the aThANa - kAnaDA axis you wrote about too.

-Ramakriya

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 02 Apr 2008, 17:52

Ramakriya,

I am under no illusion that the present scales of ragas are the same as what they used to be in olden times. This has been discussed "to death" in the other thread. All ragas undergo processes of evolution and change.

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=663&p=5

Even before Somanatha's Ragavibodha, the Ragatarangini of Lochana (ca. 1550) of Mithila lists athana as a "janya" of the karNATa mela (modern kAnaDa) with a scale of the current 28th melakarta.

At risk of revisiting the discussion, in summary:

1. When I think of "tradition", I consider certain values/behaviors that are worth maintaining over the ages - things like guru-shishya relationship, adherence to "classicism" etc. The evolution of ragas is not a process of "tradition", merely a process of obsoletion and refinement. It is very interesting to observe how our idea of raga and its possibilities has evolved and refined over the ages. Particularly, it very interesting how all these ragas (kanada, athana, nayaki, darbar, shahana - dikshitar version, and kannadagaula have all finally crystallized in the 22nd melakarta. I for one am happy that someone converted these ragas from 34th melakarta scale (which has limited possibilities) into the forms that we know them today.

2. Hence, I have strongly discouraged the use of G3 in athana as it is basically a nuisance or a quirk, and is not an aspect of "tradition" in any form. If indeed the use of G3 in athana is a "mark of respect for tradition", then I would like to ask the "traditionalists" whoever they are, why don't they apply "tradition" uniformly instead of as they please?

In Ragatarangini, the ragas listed under "karnata" (modern 28) mela are the following (just copying from my post #119 in the old thread): vAgiSvarI, khammAja, soraTha (modern suraTi), paraj, mAru, jayajayavantI, kukubha, kAmoda, kedAra, mAlavakaiSika, hindola, sugharaI, aDANA, gArAkAnaDA, SrIrAga.

Why don't "tradition"-conscious musicians apply R2 and N2 when singing paraj (janya of modern 15), or G3 when singing bageshri or sriraga (both modern 22) ? Or completely eliminate G2 from jaijaivanti ?

Using G3 in athana creates a jarring effect that is not in tune with the rest of the raga.

3. I am unable to comprehend how athana got assigned to "dhirashankarabharanam" at some point of time, except in the manner that I mentioned earlier, i.e. erroneous judgement. In the old texts, it is never a shankarabharanam janya. Even during the age of "interpolation", there is no rational reason to put it in 29 (since there is no kakali nishada in athana). We also have discussed the difference between athana nishada (both CM and HM) and the "nishada" of actual 29ers like arabhi, bilahari etc, and also other 29ers like begada (whose nishada in my opinion does not really exist at all).

4. I agree with you that the CM athana is most certainly (in the historical sense) the same raga as the HM adana - the two have evolved somewhat differently but still retain clear similarity.

SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Apr 2008, 22:14

I do consider it unusual - but sort of treat it (in terms of occurance musically - rather than historical connotations) like usage of say D1 in today's ritigowla, or say D2 in srirAga, and even to some extent usage of G3 in anandabhairavi.

Old mela texts do assign to 28 - although mudduvenkatamakhi explicitly mentions the presence of N3 (which I suspect is the main reason in the move to 29 - not the ga). All mention usage of gandara (i.e. within 28) and never explicitly mention sadharana gandara.

Irrespective of all that - it is there. That it is jarring to some - one cannot argue personal perceptions - nor can claim "you are wrong. It is not". One can only offer other perceptios - I dont find it jarrring but I will admit it presents a different color to the raga - sort of like D2 in srIraga. Again just my perception. I am in no position to say composers who include it their compositions, and great musicians who include it in their renditions are wrong etc. etc. In short, irrespective of how it came into being, it is there, and I like it in correct, short doses. So - fine with me

. If people dont like it, they can avoid it like some who avoid G3 in Anandabhairavi completely, or D2 in SrIrAga. That is fine too. Presence of G3 in aTANA is not mandatory.

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 06 Apr 2008, 01:09

As we discussed before, the whole issue of melakarta assignment doesn't serve much purpose, especially for the texts dating from 1500s. In many cases we do not know if the ragas included in each "mela" were only upanga ragas or bhashanga ragas also. Thus we do not know for sure that G3 was used in athana. I agree, at the end it is a subjective issue, those who want to use it are free to do so. Unlike the "alpa prayogas" in anandabhairavi, the G3 in athana creates a jarring effect to my ear. My post should not be taken as trying to "force" anyone to think in the same manner.

SR

Ramnath Iyer · Post by **Ramnath Iyer** » 07 Apr 2008, 15:31

Years ago I have heard Smt Vedavalli mention in a lecdem at MA about this antara gandhara issue. Her view was one should avoid the use of the phrase NSGMRS in the tara stayi using the antara gandhara.

Prof SRJ is his book 'raga lakshnanangal - part I', says that in the phrase NSG,MR,S in tara stayi, antara gandhara has been forced into ! He also says that janya of karaharapriya is most appropriate.

Ramki, your alapana is very very nice.

Ramnath

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Apr 2008, 20:29

But doesn't Ramki elegantly integrate antara gandhara at the tara sthayi in his clip? Or, is my aging ears playing some tricks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Apr 2008, 20:35

thanks ramnath.

cml - yes. But the argument is - that phrase is possible a later, and (also and/or hence) unwanted addition, which is recommended as one of those "avoidable phrases".

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Apr 2008, 20:58

Thanks Arun. I get the point. But sometimes these pronouncements appear autocratic for me

Perhaps there is an underlying reason which never gets explained and we will be left with 'fossilized rules' which are only stumbling blocks for the progress of CM!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Apr 2008, 00:21

Sangeet Rasik wrote:. I agree, at the end it is a subjective issue, those who want to use it are free to do so. Unlike the "alpa prayogas" in anandabhairavi, the G3 in athana creates a jarring effect to my ear. My post should not be taken as trying to "force" anyone to think in the same manner.
SR

I would not have responded at all if it was all subjective. Since you wroe "I hope the musicians will kindly consider dropping the antara G in performance of this raga as recommended by musicologists, since this svara does not do any service to the raga and is an interpolation.", that seemed to have some backing from musicologists and so I gave it some weight beyond personal tastes.

I do hang on to your words

Now I understand your position on this.