chakravaham and vegavahini

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Priya_s
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#1

Post by Priya_s »

Can any one point out if there is any tangible difference between chakravaham and vegavahini besides the fact that chakravaham belongs to venkatmahi classification of melas and its corresponding version in dikshithar school/classification is vegavahini... But anything more to this is there?

hariharan
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#2

Post by hariharan »

Vegavahini raga is a vakra sampoorna raga, as per Dr. Bhagyalakshmi's Raga book. In the arohana only it is vakra and the note Ri is the vakra swara. This raga is said to have existed much earlier than Chakravagam. Hence, can it be so, that Sri. M.Dikshitar had only named the chakravagam raga as Vegavahini (new). If so, then the older Vegavahini and Chakravagam are different and Sri. Dikshitar's Vegavahini(new) and Chakravagam are one and the same with same Aroha and Avaroh (sampoorna Mela) type.

My observations may be wrong also. Please discuss.

Radhekrishna
Hariharan.

vainika
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#3

Post by vainika »

SMGM (vEgavAhinI) as opposed to SRGM (chakravAham), for starters...

Ashwin
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#4

Post by Ashwin »

tyAgarAjA has treated vEgavAhini (e.g. callaganAtO) differently that muttusvAmi dIkShitar (e.g. vINA pustakadhAriNIm). SRJ Mama has taken up both kritis for comparison - see the recording from his 2006 Lec-dem in Cleveland:

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads/srj/cle06/

Ashwin

Priya_s
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#5

Post by Priya_s »

thanks i'll check out that link.. From the other posts can I infer that "vinayaka vigna nakshaka" in vegavahini is hence characteristically different from the chakravaham kritis like say, "Gajanana yutam"?

keerthi
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#6

Post by keerthi »

Vinayaka vighna-nashaka and GajAnana=yutham and vinapustaka-dharinim are all in vegavAhini. another beautiful song is inka dayarakunnanu hari hari composed by rAmaswami dikshitar at tirupathi, giving thanks to balaji, for having restored Baluswami dikshitar's sight.

this rAga is stronger in avarohana phrases and Aroha interludes asre characterised by s/M, M/pmgM p/S(upper S) s/D(madhya s to madya D)

veena-pustaka should be treated as the definitive version of the raga; since those two ganesha songs have rather dubious notations(and sahityam too actually).

Thyagaraja's challaga nAtO both resembles and departs from this version by degrees.
the correct version of Etulo brotuvo in the pallavi has a strong semblance to veena-pustaka. The prevalent version is just some tune in chakravAka.



the carnaticised version of ahir bhairav is a country cousin of chakravAka and has been popularised by balamuralikrishna through pibare ramarasam and a thillana.

you assumption in post #5 is correct, given the prevalent trend of singing those songs; but i will have you know that M dikshitar never composed in Vakrachakam.

CarnatiCalifornia
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#7 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by CarnatiCalifornia »

Here is a rendition of Vegavahini - Veena Pusthaka Dharineem Ashraye, for your kind reference.

https://www.facebook.com/surbi.vj/video ... 5741028119

Presenting this eclectic raga Thoya Vegavahini, sitting by the banks of a lake, a soft breeze blowing, inspired by a beautiful sunset playing hide-and-seek amidst trees, with a backdrop of the rolling hills of the valley. As ducks flock around and hopped into the lake, it is perhaps the closest one could feel to the white-saree-clad Saraswathi devi in Raja Ravi Varma's paintings, flanked by swans, playing the veena beside a lake herself.

Is it not fitting to sing the composition Veena Pusthaka Dharini, where maestro Muthuswami Dikshithar invokes Goddess Saraswathi himself?

Composition : Veena Pusthaka Dharineem Ashraye
Ragam : Thoya Vega Vahini
Thalam : Mishra Jathi Jhampa , also sung by some as Khanda Eka
Composer : Muthuswami Dikshithar

SAHITHYAM :
Pallavi
Veena pusthaka dhaarinim aashraye |
Vegavahineem vanimashraye ||

Anu Pallavi
Enankayutha jatajoota makutanthAm |
Ekagra chittha nidhyatha vidhikantham ||

Charanam
Paradhyakhila shabdha svaroopavakasham |
PaurnamI chandrika dhavala sankashA ||
Kararavindham kalyanadham bhasham |
Kanaka champakadhama bhoosha visesham ||

Madhyama Kalam
Nirantharam bhaktha jihvagra vasam |
Nikhila prapancha sankocha vikasham ||
Naraadhamaanana viloka shokapaham |
Narahari hara guruguha* poojitha vigraham ||

rajeshnat
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#8 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by rajeshnat »

CarnatiCalifornia wrote: 22 Oct 2020, 13:03 Ragam : Thoya Vega Vahini
Well sung @CarnatiCalifornia . I was initially thinking the name Thoya being added to VegaVahini is perhaps a typo introduced by iPad as a foreign sangathi. But googling i do find the name as written by you . Is that just to indicate that I am more madi madi to say the raga name is ThoyaVegaVahini or is it just to say the name of the raga is only ThoyaVegaVahini and we have to differentiate that from veghavahini (gajananayutham). This is a brilliant song , a staple from Brindamma school.

SrinathK
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#9 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

Thoya is a prefix for fitting into the katapayadi naming scheme. Much like "mecha" Kalyani or "jana" todi or even "nAri" reetigauLa. It's not an actual part of the raga name.

laya2
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#10 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by laya2 »

Mr. Srinath, I had sent you a private message. I hope you received it.

Thank you.

Ranganayaki
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#11 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by Ranganayaki »

This is what Wikipedia says about the two raga names:
Tōyavēgavāhini is the 16th Melakarta in the original list compiled by Venkatamakhin. The notes used in the scale are the same and the ascending scale and descending scale are same.
But a few years ago, I asked Shri RKSK this question at a lecdem, and he said that one does not encounter a straight SRGM in the ascent in Vegavahini. He did not specify what one does encounter, and though I asked him the question again a couple of years later at a different concert, I did not get an answer.

But listening to Dikshitar’s Gajananayutam, what he said seems to be true, no instances of SRGM. I was able to discern mainly SGM and an instance of SRM (correct me if I’m wrong). But I’m not able to deduce an Arohana from that. May be someone can help - Srinath?

shankarank
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#12 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

According to the 72 mela ragamalika exposition by Prof. SRJ, when he covers this mELA, Gajananayudam is under a cloak of cakravAham ( exact expression he used - you will have to hear it directly to get a sense of what he wanted to express) , even though it goes by vEgavahini. vEgavAhini by definition goes with smgm , omitting R1 and G3 which don't have a samvAdi on upper tetrachord.

The svaraprastara by TMK ( in the 1.0 era) a navarathri festival broadcast in FM gold, available somewhere in sangItapriya follows this krama.

And SrI dIkShitar - as one would expect of giants who knew their rAgAs, starts vINA pustaka dhAriNIm with SN2S, establishing firmly the samvAdi principle by traversing N2 , before making a moon shot to M1!

Prof SRJ's additional comment: This is a mighty rAgA! I suppose I can conclude cakravAham is NOT a rAgA! :D

shankarank
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#13 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

And doesn't eTula brOtuvO have a similar jump ssM or SRSM?

Ranganayaki
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#14 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by Ranganayaki »

I think I do get it when you say that he said that Gajananayutam is under a cloak of Chakravakam.
vEgavAhini by definition goes with smgm ,
How do you know this? Do you have a reference that you’d quote? I have looked hard (not at the SSP, though) and have never found a definition.

I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence (still #12).

shankarank
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#15 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

oh well the last comment. To say sampURNa paddati did not produce rAgAs in the true spirit of what rAgAs were, is my pet theme. You can scratch it if you want. It is a small pleasure I derive.

SrinathK
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#16 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

tOya is a prefix for this raga to fit into the kaTapayadi naming scheme.

gajAnanayutam is a doubtful candidate for an MD kriti (even DKP has said so) and everyone sings it in chakravaham these days so using modern recordings to find the phrases for vEgavAhini is highly misleading. Many "guruguha kritis" are suspect and we don't know if MD really composed them and if not, who was the real composer. Based on tala, style, lyrics, context and raga lakshaNa we can put many modern MD kritis into "The gray basket" and even spot some obvious fakes, but to be conclusive in other cases is very difficult.

Even vinAyaka vighna nAshaka is another doubtful case, especially the popular tune which is totally chakravaham (and skips an entire line and combines pallavi and charanam into one samashti charanam). Some branches of the Dikshitar parampara sing it differently though. Still, it's origin isn't without doubt.

vEgavAhini prefers to use SMGM, but it is not a scalar raga and is defined by phrases. SRGM does actually come occasionally.

Have to do more work before writing in depth on vegavAhini.

@Ranganayaki Don't worry about that last line. No one else understands either. :lol:

shankarank
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#17 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 12:59
vEgavAhini by definition goes with smgm ,
How do you know this? Do you have a reference that you’d quote? I have looked hard (not at the SSP, though) and have never found a definition.
Looks like everybody (ragApravaham, subbarama dikshitar) define it as srgm - I am mistaken when I say definition. But in both gIta and tana in SSP English edition, I looked hard and I only find srs and smgr! There is no usage of it.

nAdopAsaka
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#18 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by nAdopAsaka »

If it is accepted that this Dikshitar is primarily interested in (musically) taking the names of the deities (and this seems irrefutable, given the myriad references to names from classical scriptures such as LalitA sahasranAma/triSati, Ganapati sahasranAma etc. ) then the kriti “gajAnana-yutam” is a legitimate construct of Dikshitar.

This direct/leading call-out (of this particular name of the elephant-headed deity) is not used as a lead name in any of the other 26-27 Ganapati kritis (each of which identifies a unique and different aspect of the Ganapati) e.g. VinAyaka, vallabhA-nAyAka, ucchiSta-Ganapati, siddhi-vinAyaka, lambodarAya, herambAya etc. etc. etc.

The popular and widespread mantra “gajAnana-m BhutagaNAdi sevitam” must have echoed in the Dikshitar’s ears on any number of his temple tirthas. Even if didn’t hear it at those venues, say because he was focused on tuning up his veena, it is intrinsic to most any home puja.

In addition it can be observed that Dikshitar gives the unambiguous mudra in “vinAyaka vighnanASaka” as vEgavAhinI-vardhita.

Does the kriti gajAnanayutam admit of any mudra based clues, given this
Dikshitars penchant for rAga mudra embedding ?

Interestingly the line in this kriti “guruguhAgrajam praNa-vAka-aram” carries the word vAka.
The Dikshitar is not a follower of the sampurna mela paddhati although when it comes to Deshi-simharavam he chose to conveniently deploy hemAvati !

One interpretation of sampurna mela name “cha-kra-vAka” in the katapayAdi scheme (this system has taken on the glow of a Periodic Table ) is that the first two syllables cha and k give the numbers 6 and 1 which then assign mela
number 16 (this klunky flipping of numbers was deemed OK and applies also for example to me-cha in me-cha Kalyani)

How exactly the Dikshitar kritis have been sung/handed-down over the generations, what their fidelity is today to any original intent, how they might have been mutated/mutilated is of course what needs to be discussed. and is being discussed...

SrinathK
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#19 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

Nadopasaka, you really know how to disguise gaps in understanding with much speculation. :mrgreen: You must learn more before you can do your skills justice.

While we can use hypothesis as a starting point, there's no way this can be used to conclude anything.

BTW, since you may not know. dEshi simhAravam and hEmavati are the same, hEmavati is another name for it. A few melas like shankarabharanam, mayamalavagauLa, tODi and kalyani are the same across both systems.

The emphasis in threads like these is more about the raga phrases, the authenticity of compositions being a secondary issue, but it still becomes a point of discussion because modified tunes and tunes of disputed compositions usually are not representative of the raga we are trying to discuss.

Gajananayutam and vinayaka vighna nAshaka are better examples for chakravakam than vegavahini, given that everyone on record has only ever sung them in chakravakam.
Last edited by SrinathK on 22 Nov 2020, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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#20 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

shankarank wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 13:46
Ranganayaki wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 12:59
vEgavAhini by definition goes with smgm ,
How do you know this? Do you have a reference that you’d quote? I have looked hard (not at the SSP, though) and have never found a definition.
Looks like everybody (ragApravaham, subbarama dikshitar) define it as srgm - I am mistaken when I say definition. But in both gIta and tana in SSP English edition, I looked hard and I only find srs and smgr! There is no usage of it.
You read the first 2 pages only in mela 16, so don't play the SSP expert just yet. :lol: The ascending and descending murchana is very rarely indicative of the raga phrases.

When I say SRGM did come once or twice, it is there in Ramaswamy Dikshitar's kriti as well as the notated raga phrases given by SD at the end, but the raga can very well not use it.

nAdopAsaka
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#21 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by nAdopAsaka »

Dear Srinath you noted in post 16 that gajAnanayutam is a doubtful candidate for an MD kriti..

Based on what I have pointed out you need a better explanation than the one you have presented so far to defend this speculation...

i.e. I assert that it is logical to consider it an MD kriti based on the Ganapati name pantheon that he is associated with..

If it has some musical deficiencies that support your position then you can try to articulate those....
I am willing to admit these deficiencies may have come along with later generations/renditions

Where Muthuswamy Dikshitar is concerned, several clues and much information is provided in his words/choices..

Peace !

shankarank
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#22 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 20:24 You read the first 2 pages only in mela 16, so don't play the SSP expert just yet. :lol: The ascending and descending murchana is very rarely indicative of the raga phrases.

When I say SRGM did come once or twice, it is there in Ramaswamy Dikshitar's kriti as well as the notated raga phrases given by SD at the end, but the raga can very well not use it.
That sounds like a lakshya usage where mostly it is never used. There is one in RamasvAmi dIkshitar kriti and one in sancAri. It is like how Brindamma sings SRGM for kannada ( now I will check SSP for that too :mrgreen: ).

And SD , if he is the one that really did this, to make it conformant listed ArOhaNam / AvarOhaNam like that. But the rAgA is being spelt out as SMGM. May be tOyavEgavAhini as a mELa needs considered separate from vEgavAhini rAgA. I do understand the name is just kaTapayAti based naming.

So if the rAgA doesn't have to use it - there you go : mELA NOT EQUALS rAGA.

SrinathK
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#23 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... -interview

It becomes doubtful when I cannot trace a song back to who first sang it, but I am still searching. It's even worse when someone like DKP herself feels so. The fact that is set to a modern tune in chakravaham doesn't help me from any melodic point of view. The oldest recording I could find was by Semmangudi. He has added smgm in his recordings, but otherwise no one else sings it this way.

Before you throw the word speculation at me, you were the one doubting Subbarama Dikshitar and even established kritis like mAyE despite all the evidence. Please. We're all speculating to an extent, but I feel you stretched your hypothesis a bit too much. Lyrically, gajAnanayutam seems fine, in fact it was one of the first kritis I learnt and even have my teacher's notation in my notebook. But the tune setting is very unlike MD. If I can connect it to someone in the Dikshitar parampara I'd be very happy.

shankarank
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#24 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

The yati of the gajananayutam is also very pedestrian without much kArvais even in pallavi. It will be interesting to see if any kriti has a similar yati.

shankarank
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#25 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 21:44 It is like how Brindamma sings SRGM for kannada ( now I will check SSP for that too ).
Now without digressing too much , this ragam and SrI mAtRbhUtam kriti is not in the English edition under the meLA section.

In general I initially thought for a mELA definition they might have avoided a vakra specification, but then that is really not the case is it? Don't know why they desisted from specifying smgm here! :?

laya2
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#26 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by laya2 »

Hello Mr. Shankar,

I tried contacting you by sending you a private message. Can you please reply.

thank you.

SrinathK
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#27 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

shankarank wrote: 23 Nov 2020, 03:05
shankarank wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 21:44 It is like how Brindamma sings SRGM for kannada ( now I will check SSP for that too ).
Now without digressing too much , this ragam and SrI mAtRbhUtam kriti is not in the English edition under the meLA section.

In general I initially thought for a mELA definition they might have avoided a vakra specification, but then that is really not the case is it? Don't know why they desisted from specifying smgm here! :?
As usual trying hard to digress and keep a thread going elsewhere. :mrgreen:

Of course it is there. Look in mela 28. And save the rest for kannaDa's thread. My humble suggestion, just leave this matter to us? Digs and snarks don't contribute much to the way of discussion.

shankarank
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#28 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

whoa! That really shows how much relevant the text is. :lol: . How can a gamaka on 3 consecutive DDD be followed ever by N2?

And interestingly , there they specify SRGM is sung sometimes - allowing it. But the definition has it as Srgm as well. Thought it is smgm or sgm which is what the kriti utilizes and prayOga mentions.

Searching the document with sAhitya does not work. OK this is interesting! Surely an anomaly. Time to dust up the kannada thread.

SrinathK
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#29 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by SrinathK »

shankarank wrote: 23 Nov 2020, 07:55 whoa! That really shows how much relevant the text is. :lol: . How can a gamaka on 3 consecutive DDD be followed ever by N2? .
You haven't seen what is there then.

Look I don't know why you have suddenly taken so much interest in the ragas threads and why all of a sudden you have started writing rather coherently, but you have some goal in mind.

Since you simply keep posting rants and dig after dig at the works of our composers (and the composers themselves), I should tell you -- Vidya (knowledge)gives vinayam(humility). By corollary, arrogance is a symptom of ignorance! :lol:

This pretentious attempt at expertise is nothing but thinly veiled contempt. Combined with rambling, sick. It's borderline trolling. If that's the goal, take your rants elsewhere, maybe on your favourite socio political topic - TMK? It was fine back when no one could understand the point of your rants.

shankarank
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#30 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

I did see what is there, bhashangam.. but hard to tell from what I am hearing from even authentic schools vs what is notated in SSP, whether there is any correspondence or it simply utilizes N3 all through based on bhAshangam as a liberty.

Or is it another lost melody??

And your suggestion with TMK and all that - I react only if sense some TMKism creeping into people's post. Otherwise I am actually keeping away! ;)

Also this side of the forum is keeping somewhat quiet as well - want to kick up some interest :D

shankarank
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#31 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 23 Nov 2020, 10:23 I should tell you -- Vidya (knowledge)gives vinayam(humility).
Hmm.. Vidya, Vinayam... big words, big words! ArTu KeerTunellam sollikiTrundAnga. ennamO ellarukkum neraya freedomellam irukkAmE. Listeners included! Now you are acknowledging it is a knowledge system ( I will use common English expression that may be palatable to the audience here) !

RSR
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#32 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by RSR »

Why not listen to NC.Vasanthakokilam rendition of 'Vegavahuhini' kruthi by MD?
https://youtu.be/Eo2RTdn8m8k
( upload by Raju Asokan)
Also for the lyrics and meaning provided by our venerable Sri.Govindan with some help by his friend? at

https://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2008/06/ ... -raga.html


https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanthakokilam

https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... egavaahini
======================
threads in ragas section should give audio clips as illustration. with less focus and controversy on lyrics please.
@nAdopAsaka
@SrinathK
@shankarank
-------------------------------

shankarank
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#33 Re: chakravaham and vegavahini

Post by shankarank »

The one that was held as family treasure is here : https://soundcloud.com/rithvikraja/vinapustaka

She does not begin as SN2S - simply S as notated in SSP. Neither does MSS nor Smt. Vedavalli. The later both in youtube. The MSS version was part of Guruguha vANi - AIR release I think from the SrI dIkshitar centenary year 1975?

But Sri Rangaramanuja Iyengar in kriti maNi mAlai notates it as SNS which I guess he must have heard - again from where else?

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