Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

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shreyas
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#1 Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by shreyas »

I have found the Arohana and Avarohana of Narayanagowla to be

S R2 M1 P N2 D2 N2 S
S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 G3 R2 S

and Kapinarayani to be

S R2 M1 P D2 N2 S
S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 G3 R2 S.

While listening to Sri Ramam and Sarasa Sama Dana, I have found the two ragas to sound almost identical, besides the usual speed at which they are sung. In fact, in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bdp-6PE_E8) where TMK sings Sarasa Sama Dana at a much slower pace than usual, it sounds quite similar to his own Sri Ramam in Narayanagowla, a slow, meandering piece.

The only major technical difference I find is the extensive usage of NDMP in Narayanagowla and of the note N in Kapinarayani.

I believe that even though Narayanagowla has quite a few phrases that define it, the two ragas can be very easily mistaken for one another (notwithstanding the fact that they are both quite rare).

Can anyone clarify the same?

shreyas
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#2 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by shreyas »

Kapinarayani is very rarely sung slowly, but I believe it's quite similar to NG actually.

The Lost Melodies
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#3 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Narayanagaula was a grand old raga and its limit cannot be delineated by a scale. Kapinarayani is the opposite in all these aspects.

I always believe there existed two schools - the first school believed in seeing ragas as an entity full of phrases. Venkatamakhi, Sahaji and Tulaja belonged to this school. The second school believed in seeing ragas as restricted entities. They made ragas scale bound. In this process, the second school came out with a scale matching a raga of the first school. Narayanagaula - Kapinarayani is one such pair. Few other examples include Paras-Jaganmohini and Purnachandrika - Janaranjani.

In all these pairs, the first one is a raga with wide scope and the second one is allied to its pair, but with a much-limited scope.

SrinathK
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#4 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by SrinathK »

Also old yamunakalyani - mohanakalyani,

shankarabharanam - garuDadhwani

Old kApi - kAnaDa (not strictly scale bound but still).

Maybe rudrapriya - pushapalatika? (I am stretching it here).

Some ragas like manOhari (Thyagaraja) or shuddha seemantini are clearly derived from their parent melas.

The Lost Melodies
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#5 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Old Yamunakalyani can be compared with Hamviru.
Maybe rudrapriya - pushapalatika? (I am stretching it here).
I was considering the ragas mentioned in the texts like Sangraha Cudamani and its ally Sangita Sarvartha Saram. Pushpalatika is not seen in those texts. But, Pushpalatika can be considered as a restricted version of Manirangu.

In many old manuscripts, the raga of the kriti 'ikanaina' is given as Manirangu !

SrinathK
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#6 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by SrinathK »

shreyas wrote: 31 Jan 2019, 19:06 I have found the Arohana and Avarohana of Narayanagowla to be

S R2 M1 P N2 D2 N2 S
S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 G3 R2 S

and Kapinarayani to be

S R2 M1 P D2 N2 S
S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 G3 R2 S.

While listening to Sri Ramam and Sarasa Sama Dana, I have found the two ragas to sound almost identical, besides the usual speed at which they are sung. In fact, in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bdp-6PE_E8) where TMK sings Sarasa Sama Dana at a much slower pace than usual, it sounds quite similar to his own Sri Ramam in Narayanagowla, a slow, meandering piece.

The only major technical difference I find is the extensive usage of NDMP in Narayanagowla and of the note N in Kapinarayani.

I believe that even though Narayanagowla has quite a few phrases that define it, the two ragas can be very easily mistaken for one another (notwithstanding the fact that they are both quite rare).

Can anyone clarify the same?
I checked ssp last night. Whoa, you made quite an observation there alright. All this time I was not very sure of the differences between kedAragauLa and nArAyaNagauLa because of listening to current renditions, but now I realize nArAyaNagauLa is indeed closer to kApi nArAyaNi than kedAragauLa.

kApi nArAyani is more like a linear scalar version of nArAyaNagauLa.

That means this is now officially a set of famous five allied ragas in mela 28.

kedAragauLa
chAyAtarangiNi
nArAyaNagauLa
suraTi
kApi nArAyaNi

Ananthakrishna
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#7 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

They are certainly allied, but there exist many key differences between the two. I hardly think one can be mistaken from the other. My arguments are of course based on the modern form of both these ragams.

1. The sadharana gandharam features as an anuswaram in Narayanagowla, and the gandharam does drop down to G2 sometimes. This can and will never happen in Kapi Narayani.

2. While Jhanta prayogams are essential to both, the marked emphasis on speed in Kapi Narayani is absent in Narayanagowla. Narayanagowla has a pronouncedly slow gait even in Jhanta prayogams.

3. Narayanagowla, while vast in scope in both sedate and fast paces, its phraseology is rather leisurely paced. Even madhyamakala krithis, tanam, e.t.c. might be sung fast, but the intrinsic pace of the phrases is slower than that of Kapi Narayani. For example, Darshanamu Seya is far more sedately paced in phraseology than Sarasa Samadana.

4. The prayogam SNDMP is perhaps unique to the interpretation of Narayanagowla, and so won’t feature in Kapi Narayani. This can be attributed to the fact that Kapi Narayani is far more linear and scalar in approach.

5. In Kapi Narayani, P can be used as a resting note, which is not feasible in Narayanagowla.

6. In Narayanagowla, the madhyamam is rather prominent, far more than in Kapi Narayani anyway.


So while they certainly are allied, I don’t think they are quite as close as to be mistaken for one another.

ramakriya
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#8 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by ramakriya »

You can sasy Kapi narayani exists only because of sarasa sAmadAna. The raga is solely deterimined by the scalar sancharas of that compositions. Unless more compositions come in any raga, it is extremely hard to develop a fuller character IMO.

SrinathK
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#9 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by SrinathK »

ramakriya wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 07:05 You can sasy Kapi narayani exists only because of sarasa sAmadAna. The raga is solely deterimined by the scalar sancharas of that compositions. Unless more compositions come in any raga, it is extremely hard to develop a fuller character IMO.
Really? Listen to this : https://youtu.be/kH8FzH-0LzA -- honestly I don't know what more to sing after that.

@Ananthakrishna would do well to listen to the swaras. Lots of pdm and mgrgr which is what gives the nArAyaNagauLa esque flavour.

I do agree that we do not really know how kApi nArAyANi can or should sound at low speed as we don't have a composition in it, though we do have an idea of how nArAyaNagauLa may be at higher speeds as there is a varnam in it.

I do not think tempo is the right metric to distinguish a raga because many of the ragas we think are slow have also been sung extremely fast and vice versa - this includes many HM ragas and many CM ragas that crossed over to HM. That is an effect that has come due to not having enough compositions of all types - the major ragas easily have dozens of compositions in them by comparison.

shankarank
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#10 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 07:35
ramakriya wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 07:05 You can sasy Kapi narayani exists only because of sarasa sAmadAna. The raga is solely deterimined by the scalar sancharas of that compositions. Unless more compositions come in any raga, it is extremely hard to develop a fuller character IMO.
Really? Listen to this : https://youtu.be/kH8FzH-0LzA -- honestly I don't know what more to sing after that.
Is that an agreement or no with @ramakriya?! Seriously but for his virtuosity, even that 3 minute sancAram will not stand.

This is a memorable tape that I enjoyed with my rasika mentor! I remember that Aha for PMI's Sruti alignment at the start. bhEda danDa catura odukkams will never come except when PMI is being there! And his tension filled accompaniment for a what is just a saukya naDai kriti is telling! And it is LGJ on violin! When replying for the last long svaraprastara LGJ holds the kARvai at N2 to allow PMI to adjust Sruti!

We always think N3 is the dissonant note, here there is an N2 that is dissonant, because it has some unique plain spot? Is it so in nArAyaNa gauLa??

SrinathK
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#11 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by SrinathK »

That was actually Pazhani on the mridangam. I was saying that in the context of whether kApi nArAyaNi is really all that limited in the hands of a genius. But after hearing a rendition like that, do you really think you or I can do better? Get it?

N2 is seldom plain in nArAyaNa gauLa, but there's no law that says it can't. kApi nArAyaNi N2 is not really dissonant, you are not used to hearing it plain. Unless you insist that it should be exactly equal to the 7th harmonic at 175% of the frequency of S, which does not exist in Indian music.

I don't think any other raga save reetigauLa gives the N2 that much prime time like kApi nArAyANi does.

Narayanagaula is an underexplored raga. Maybe after singing it many many times, one may realize it is more capable than it seems.

Oh and @Ananthakrishna and @shreyas There is one more raga that belongs in that family, now it's a set of famous 6.

The sixth is old balahamsa, which is to harikedAragauLa what Balarama was to Krishna.

Ananthakrishna
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#12 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

I heard the swaraprastaram as suggested and immediately after I heard MDR’s rendition of Maguva Ninne. PDM prayogams were certainly similar, but as far as MGRGR was concerned, the G in Kapi Narayani was held straight and was perceptibly higher than the subtly oscillated, slightly lower G in Narayanagowla.

I agree that Narayanagowla has not been given its due in kutcheris. It has barely been explored. I have heard that there is a fine krithi by Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, Itu Paraaka Cheyu, in Narayanagowla that can actually succinctly demonstrate the key facets of the ragam and how in particular it and Kapi Narayani can be differentiated. Are any recordings of this krithi available?

This is probably a moot point, but I feel that Madhyamavathi and many other ragams with a N2 and no Dhaivatam also emphasise the N2 quite prominently. It all depends on whether N2 in a ragam has the potential to be a suitable Nyaasaswaram.

The mention of old Balahamsa intrigued me. Could you please elaborate on its similarities and differences with respect to NG, KN and KG?

rajeshnat
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#13 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by rajeshnat »

ramakriya wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 07:05 You can sasy Kapi narayani exists only because of sarasa sAmadAna. The raga is solely deterimined by the scalar sancharas of that compositions. Unless more compositions come in any raga, it is extremely hard to develop a fuller character IMO.
Once I heard a RTP in kapinarayani where Kapinarayani was the main ragam ALapana and also taanam also in kapinarayani. Perhaps once a 5 decade occurrence. That day i also met the founder of that sabha who is a great patron

[email protected](thrimoorthi sangeetha sabha) on Nov 20th,2010
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14875&hilit=pozhichalur

7. RTP in KApinArayani
11 mins alApanai in two rounds with an intermedite 4 mins violin return
TAnam for 9 mins
Pallavi line was "neerajAkshi kAmAkshi nikila lOka jaNaNi"
swararAga mAliga in kApinArayani + kAnadA + sooryA
pallavi + swaras for 13 mins

In the youtube 2 sarasa sama dhana is exceptionally good . One is [email protected] Parthasarathi sabha and another Sandeep Narayanan also singing a detailed swaras both copious manodharma.

shankarank
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#14 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 22:44 That was actually Pazhani on the mridangam.
That dhin when Sruti was aligned, is a kappi mridangam sound! It will be different for kutchi. Not sure if PSP played in kappi ever!

Also too many pauses and a held back saukya naDai and more of tagugunta - the ta ending , uncharacteristic of pazhani school! The signature roaring execution is a truncated expression in the timeline below :

https://youtu.be/kH8FzH-0LzA?t=543 - again ending with "ta"! Pazhani school would roar into a dhom beyond the samam even sometimes!

For a saukya naDai dEsAdi kriti, he does not want to be a pazhani even if demanded, because that sollukaTTu does not belong to his ways! He doesn't want to get into any sustaining nadai ever - and many pauses everywhere.

And this particular rendition with the "Aha" expression for Sruti on mridangam, and the full recording in the hands of the Tanjore Marathi Grundig tape collector was catalogued as PMI. He was one of "close to" original sources! Many times supplying the blanks from the U.S.
Last edited by shankarank on 13 Apr 2021, 09:27, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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#15 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by shankarank »

p -> #13 - this one is a poise filled rendition by Bharat Sundar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojl6aRvJS_c

shankarank
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#16 Re: Narayanagowla and Kapinarayani - can they be considered allied?

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 22:44 kApi nArAyaNi N2 is not really dissonant, you are not used to hearing it plain. Unless you insist that it should be exactly equal to the 7th harmonic at 175% of the frequency of S, which does not exist in Indian music.
I used the dissonant in the sense of lack of samvadi (G2) in the lower tetrachord. Ragas with mutually non samvadi tetrachords ( pravadi may be) have such an issue. While N2 is well distanced from S or D2 , the lack of samvAdi becomes prominent when the note is not an anusvara or a gamaka. mUrchana awareness is there!

And that dissonance kind of defines the effect of the rAga. May be as a side effect even the landing into R2 from G3 in prastarams like : pa da ni...ni... ni..dapama ri ga..ri is sort of dissonant. Just linger on that R2 for a while and try emitting a sa. It is a pleasurable world! :D.

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