Sindhu Kanada

Rāga related discussions
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vinsim
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#1

Post by vinsim »

I just happened to finally locate the song that has been playing out in my mind, ever since a friend hummed it in passing.

It is "Nannu kanna thalli" in Sindhu Kanada, also known as kesari.

Here is a neat version by Hyderabad brothers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-cSX75jIZk

I would appreciate if people post info/clips on this raga

vasanthakokilam
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#2

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Interesting rendition. Hyd. bros eduppu is a little later than the normal desadi eduppu, isn't it? It is almost on the third beat or just before it in contrast to the usual mid point between 2nd and 3rd beat.

knandago2001
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#3

Post by knandago2001 »

is it possible that there is a delay between the audio and video in that clip? other versions of this kriti begin "as expected"
M. Balamuralikrishna - vocal
http://www.hummaa.com/music/song/Manu+K ... li/126885#

Lalitha and Nandini - violin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emGVRLPLFNY

Priya sisters - vocal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqus9ZDIBV4

commentary on ragas kesari and sindhukanada
http://www.carnatica.net/special/ksetra-tyaga-ppn-i.htm

vasanthakokilam
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#4

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nandagopal: Thanks for the links. Yes, the other renditions begin "as expected". For Hyd. bros, I was going by the audio itself. Also, listen to the anupallavi. The "rAma" of kanakAngi rAma" starts on the half beat after the 5th beat whereas for others it falls on the 5th beat. The other stress points are adjusted accordingly to come up with this alternate layam. I actually like the variatiion since the feel is a bit different and not prototypical like all the other T's desadi thala songs. It is a bit relaxed not having to be boxed in to that alternating "half-beat away" and "samam" prototype of the other such songs.

knandago2001
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#5

Post by knandago2001 »

VK: I see what you mean - the Hyd Bros version does have a different feel to it. This seems to be a popular composition with numerous recordings available. I understand that Semmangudi has sung it in one of the DVDs that have been released recently. If you are aware of any instrumental (flute / veena) renditions, or other compositions in this raga, please do let me know.


More vocal samples -
R. Kaushik
http://www.esnips.com/doc/385b50a5-a744 ... i---Kesari

O.S.Thyagarajan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBHSWEEH9g

TMT, Vijay Siva, Sowmya
http://sangeethapriya.org/tributes/thya ... ithis.html

ragam-talam
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#6

Post by ragam-talam »

The correct name of the raga is 'Sindhu kannada' - is that right?

Harikambhoji janyam, in parts resembles Narayanagowla

cmlover
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#7

Post by cmlover »

nandagopal
Could you tell us about the similarity of sindhu kannada with Kesari?
Is there an alap in HM?

vasanthakokilam
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#8

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>The correct name of the raga is 'Sindhu kannada' - is that right?

Right. That is how it reads in Tamil, as shown in that Podigai broadcast of the OST rendition.

knandago2001
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#9

Post by knandago2001 »

cml: kesari (janya of Mararanjani) employs the suddha dhaivata and suddha nishada (vivadi), while sindhu kannada (janya of Harikamboji) uses the chatursruti dhaivata and kaisiki nishada; Rangaramanuja Iyengar’s kritimanimalai has the notation for nannu kanna talli in kesari - this version incorporates the suddha nishada even in the ascent (p m d p n d s*). I don’t know if there are similar / identical ragas in HM.

vasanthakokilam
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#10

Post by vasanthakokilam »

knandago2001, in that case Rangaramanuja Iyengar's version would sound quite different from the above links, wouldn't it?

knandago2001
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#11

Post by knandago2001 »

VK: It would be different; wish it would be possible to hear this version of the raga and the composition sometime. Here is a more technical description of kesari - identical to that found in Dr. Bhagyalakshmi’s book on raga lakshanas http://www.indiamusicinfo.com/raga_today/kesari.html

vasanthakokilam
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#12

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Nandagopal. From that site...

"An ubhaya vakra shadava sampoorna raga derived from the 25th Mela Mararanjini. Ni is omitted in the arohana. Ekasvara vakra arohana raga. In arohana 2nd Pa is the vakra svara and in avarohana 1st Dha is the vakra svara. The notes taken by the raga besides Sa and Pa are Chatusruti Ri^ Antara Ga^ Sudha Dha and Sudha Ni. An apporva raga with only one known composition and a raga brought to prominence through the composition of Thygaraja."

I wish, having said this much, they put it in the name of the krithi. I assme it is the same one that we are talking about here.
Also, what do they mean by "In arohana 2nd Pa is the vakra svara and in avarohana 1st Dha is the vakra svara." ( 2nd Pa and 1st Dha as vakra? )

Is the Aro/Ava then like this, then?

S R2 G3 M1 P M1 P D1 S

S N1 D1 N1 D1 P M1 G3 R2 S ( or S N1 D1 P D1 P M1 G3 R2 S )

or something else.?

cmlover
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#13

Post by cmlover »

Thanks Nandagopal. That clarifies the raga lakshana. I would love to hear the aalaapana of Kesari as well as the rendition of the Thyagaraja kriti as it was originally meant. I thought the rendition of Hyd Bros was slightly different from the OST version where the vivaditvam was more patent. Would you agree? I could not however distinguish the individual swaras...

knandago2001
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#14

Post by knandago2001 »

cmlover and vasantakokilam: i’m inclined to believe that sindhukannada and kesari are distinct melodic entities and it is unlikely that one of them morphed into the other. having said that, the arohana and avarohana of these ragas and the musical phrases that establish their identity remains moot. searching through different books or databases hasn’t clarified matters; for example, see what happens when you search this list with "kesari"

rajeshnat
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#15

Post by rajeshnat »

knandago2001 wrote: i’m inclined to believe that sindhukannada and kesari are distinct melodic entities and it is unlikely that one of them morphed into the other.
nandagOpal
If possible since you say it is very distinct melodic entity , can you put one recording of each , so that we get the lakshya feel. This sindhukannada vs kEari debate was there long time back for a manakkAl rangarAjan [email protected] , where manakkAl sriram put his dads opinion.

knandago2001
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#16

Post by knandago2001 »

rajesh: all the audio links posted should give you a flavor for sindhukannda; what is lacking is a clip for kesari (listed as janya of mararanjani). i wasn't aware of a prior debate with regard to these ragas at the SKGS. if you remember, will you kindly let us know what transpired.. thanks

rajeshnat
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#17

Post by rajeshnat »

knandago2001 wrote:rajesh: all the audio links posted should give you a flavor for sindhukannda; what is lacking is a clip for kesari (listed as janya of mararanjani). i wasn't aware of a prior debate with regard to these ragas at the SKGS. if you remember, will you kindly let us know what transpired.. thanks
See in the link thread
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... h2007.html

knandago2001
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#18

Post by knandago2001 »

rajesh: thanks for that link. we have a composition by annamacharya in this raga

vandeham jagat vallabham - sindhukannada - Bombay Sisters
http://www.raaga.com/channels/carnatic/ ... id=CL00423
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/c ... /thalam.6/

cmlover
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#19

Post by cmlover »

Thanks for the link. Good clean sindhu kannada! No shades of Kesari...

ragam-talam
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#20

Post by ragam-talam »

The Bombay sisters rendition on musicindiaonline sounded like Navarasakannada in several places.

vasanthakokilam
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#21

Post by vasanthakokilam »

r-t, there is some similarity.

I see two different Aro/Ava for sindu kannaDa

S M1 G3 M1 R2 G3 M1 P D2 P S - S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S
S M1 G3 M1 P S - S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

Navarasa Kannada ( or navarasa kAnaDa ? )

S G3 M1 P S - S N2 D2 M1 G3 R2 S

So we can see some similarity with that catchy M G M P S S N D in both.

NK has that nice 'D M' which provides that distinguishing feel especially in mandhra sthayi ( as in S N D M and S N D M G P S )

cmlover
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#22

Post by cmlover »

What is te accepted aro/avaro of Kesari?

ragam-talam
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#23

Post by ragam-talam »

kesari:
25 mAraranjani janya
Aa: S R2 G3 M1 P M1 D1 P D1 S
Av: S D1 N1 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S

cmlover
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#24

Post by cmlover »

Does not look like sindhu kannada at all!
How come G2?

knandago2001
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#25

Post by knandago2001 »

that is a typo - it is G3 - here is a sample of the janaka raga; another rare composition of Tyagaraja!
gives a good feel for the swarasthanas and a better idea of how kesari might sound

mararanjani raga alapana - Sriram Kannan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJQxktmb ... re=related

Manasa sri ramuni - Mararanjani - Sriram Kannan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=764SMulyUw8

just the notes - sans gamakas
http://www.carnaticindia.com/melakartha_ragas.html (audio)
http://pianoencyclopedia.com/piano/scal ... cale-chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mararanjani_scale.svg
Last edited by knandago2001 on 24 Jan 2010, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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#26

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nice. That D1-N1 and N1-D1 is quite eerie and wonderful. The violinist handling of those vivadhi swaras sounded even better.

cmlover
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#27

Post by cmlover »

Yes indeed! It will be nice to see how the vakratvam is handled in Kesari. It can be sensed only from prayOgam and not simply from the scale being played!

Perhaps a kesari varNam from you nandagopal will be enlightening !
(..it will be very sweet indeed :)

vasanthakokilam
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#28

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Now you are talking CML... Go Nandagopal, go!!

cmlover
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#29

Post by cmlover »

I mean it! You guys can enjoy the real 'kesari' listening to it; though unfortunately I can't :)

108talas
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#30

Post by 108talas »

cmlover

'KESARI' umakkE sariyAy irukkum (sweet pun)

knandago2001
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#31

Post by knandago2001 »

cmlover and vasantakokilam: thank you for your kind words of encouragement. i’m still in the process of internalizing the nuances of kesari and sindhukannada and have been studying Tyagaraja’s composition in greater detail. the notation given in the kritimanimalai may help discern how the vakra sancharas have been handled by Tyagaraja; http://www.badongo.com/pic/8518739 would be awesome if a rasika has a recording of kesari to share..

arasi
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#32

Post by arasi »

nandagopal,
Waiting for the varNam in the near future!

cmlover
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#33

Post by cmlover »

Thanks for the notations. It looks promising and perhaps popularize Kesari the way Thyagarja envisioned. Also it will liberate sindhu kannada from the bondage of navarasa kannada which is clearly heard in all the current expositions. Good luck in your efforts..

Even arasi may be tempted later to render a composition in Kesari to break the bane of ekakriti raga!

arasi
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#34

Post by arasi »

Yes, tempted but my attempt should be inspired--if not, it will be a failed one--which makes me look forward to Nandagopal's varNam even more.
Meanwhile, may the name of the rAgam not conjure up images of a steaming plate of the sweet dish to my not so fortunate 'sugar free' friends!

knandago2001
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#35

Post by knandago2001 »

"when i was born i was so surprised, i didn't talk for a year and a half" - said kesari to arasi..

arasi
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#36

Post by arasi »

vakhtne kiyA kyA hasIn sitam!

arasi
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#37

Post by arasi »

nandagopal,
Yet, hasIn sitam reverberated afar--in another thread! Thanks for the audio and images of a distant tune, a haunting one of Geeta Dutt and the sheer beauty of the lines :)

gobilalitha
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#38

Post by gobilalitha »

post34 . Enjoy a staeaming plate of kesari clandestinely and swallow one more pillof insulin rerlated medicine gobialitha

gobilalitha
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#39

Post by gobilalitha »

post34 . Enjoy a staeaming plate of kesari clandestinely and swallow one more pillof insulin rerlated medicine gobialitha
I think the clandestine kesari has affected my eye. I have missed' the letter'l' inmy name GOBILALITHA
Last edited by gobilalitha on 29 Jan 2010, 11:40, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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#40

Post by arasi »

GBL,
While I am happy to have a taste of that kEsari--I also wish my friends didn't have to think twice before they partake of any dessert because of their health :-(

cmlover
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#41

Post by cmlover »

Kesari even with the right varnam (golden brown) dripping with rasa (melted ghee) can be a killer :)
(Both (real and the virtual) can stop your heart from ticking :)

shankarank
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#42 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

Just do another thread does not get diverted - posting a cross link here:

viewtopic.php?p=371183#p371183

Raga seems to be an allied Raga with dvijAvanti.

Ananthakrishna
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#43 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by Ananthakrishna »

Dwijavanthi to me always seems to show shades of a plethora of other ragams. Personally I feel Dwijavanthi is closest to modern Sahana (Sahana with G3 and not the old one with G2).

Could you please elaborate, and tell us exactly how you found Dwijavanthi and Sindhu Kannada to be allied?

The Lost Melodies
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#44 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Here is a Kesari version of the kriti 'nannu kanna thalli'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VuT-g7zFLs

shankarank
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#45 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

#44 SrI Suddha daivata priyA and vIra dikshitarIyA

- https://youtu.be/W--sdAI-fmY?t=2283 & the explanation: https://youtu.be/W--sdAI-fmY?t=2318

I don't quite see the morbidity that I see even in mAra vairi ramaNi :

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... amani.html

with references to demonic elephants or elephantine demons :twisted:

in the sindhu kannada kriti: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... halli.html

It seems benign compared to mAnavati (connected to tATaka vadam - killing of a female through pillayar (elephant) piDikka kurangAyiTRE (monkey) predicament!). : http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... lpudu.html

I can understand mAyE tvam yAhi ( back to taragiNi :mrgreen: ) where Suddha daivatam might have played a role in bhIbhatsa rasam of asking mAyE to leave if it was indeed to do with remedy for measles!

But here? Your thoughts?

P:S: @Ranganayaki : CM has some dark stuff hidden and rAgas employed for it too!

The Lost Melodies
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#46 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by The Lost Melodies »

It is my opinion that our thoughts or opinions are not be transposed on the creativity of a composer. I also apply this to present-day musicians. Frequently we hear rasikas saying 'intha vidvan bhAvamavE padardhilla'. I cannot accept this. What is bhAvam? Are we reacting similarly to all emotions? In such a case, how can we expect musicians to match the bhava that we perceive?

Apply this to a vaggeyakara. How can we equate the emotions that we perceive with that of a vaggeyakara while listening to a particular raga? Ragas have changed as also the method of rendering them. If every raga is going to evoke a same emotion, why should Svamigal compose 'ilalo pranatartihara' and 'e papamu jesithira' in the same raga?

In this case, seriously I am not feeling the rasa bhIbatsa while listening to Manavati. In such a case, every raga with suddha rishaba and suddha gandhara should evoke this rasa. Can we give a generalized statement like that? This is highly subjective and what she had expressed is strictly to be taken as her opinion.

Also, I am puzzled to see this kriti linked with Tataka vadham. How is it related?

shankarank
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#47 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by shankarank »

Last one first: tATaka vadam is bibhatsa and the kriti evaritO nE telpudunu seperately invoked bibhatsa using the said metaphor, and the narrator linked the two. There is no direct mention of the event. The dilemma or conflict or predicament between the actual story and the metaphor is used to link the two.

In another case (nAsikAbhUShaNi) it is not coincidental that the pada "vairi" for enemy exactly happens using the vivadi svaras in vivadi fashion in mAra vairi - remember the terms iNai (samvAdi / friendly) and pahai (vivadi / enemetic) for notes in tamizh isai.

Horror movies or such scenes in movies have used dissonant notes! That is well known and this has universally percolated into pre-post-modern times. And movies themselves have adopted a sense of appropriateness of music to the scene in uniform ways.

And SrI tyAgarAja does mention navarasa in sogasugA mRdanga tALamu, so rasa handling in tradition follows the patterns laid out in theory. It may well be part of lakshaNa itself. At least this method of deduction is standard in historiography, using available evidence - correct?

Recently it was pointed out by NSG, and may be this is well known but I haven't noticed/thought about it, the SanaiScara kriti divAkara tanujam is in a slow moving rAga, by the very nature of the rAga itself, YK , to indicate the slow moving planet of Saturn. Doesn't mean all cauka kritis then indicate or convey some sense of slowness - does it? But here the rAgA phrases themselves are slow.

As to whether an actual rasika is moved by a certain rasa on a particular day depends on several factors internal and external and how much cultural sync. is there in that person, but that doesn't take away the opinionated proposal from the SAstras. Same person may react differently at different times and actual effect may be a combination of rasas or rank insensitivity to any bhava.

We should not resort to anthropological analysis of actual peoples/groups when discussing tradition, since the latter is handed down along with everything we consider as "Music" as well. It can be argued to be part of music. We are biased by democracy and people's opinions/reactions etc. That is irrelevant here.

We see the patterns actually there especially with vivAdi - two examples from SrI tyAgarAja himself. As to whether every occurrence of Suddha rishabha and Suddha gAndhara is to be considered bibhatsa, it depends on the handling of them. In rakti / gana rAgas like varALi the effect of vivadi is mitigated by vakra and approach to the svara itself. vAgadheeswari without vakra - the approach is with a jAru.

Now to the vidvan question: the judgment of a vidvAn vis-a-vis bhAva is a cultural judgement and the sense of traditional music as a practice includes the cultural aspects like how a bhAva is treated in a tradition.

If it is modern art, things can get abstract and a mix of colors splashed on a canvas becomes art. "aLLit teLittatellAm kalai enRAhiviTTadu"

RSR
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#48 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by RSR »

p-46
HM assigns some emotions to specific ragas. and even time of the day . Not applicable to CM.
Emotions evoked by a raga , ( without the associated lyrics and theme) as in raga elaboration either vocal or by instrument.. ...are they entirely subjective? May not be. All the musical compositions of Thyagaraja Swami , based on Todi and its janya ragams, seem to be connected with a special feeling - which cannot be related to common emotions. especially rendered in slow speed.
MayamaaLavaGowLa and its derived ragams also are of special emotive appeal.
What is felt by the listener, through an instrumental rendition or raga elaboration in HM style or without knowing the language of the lyrics and the theme,... is the correct yardstick.
Thyagaraja Swami has used the same raga for kruthis with different theme and message .May be because, many ragams in CM are not too strictly tied to any common emotion.
Yet, if we consider about 500 of his commonly sung and popular kruthis, I found that they are all in non-vivadi scales and M1 group
We cannot read too much into exceptions. in the compositions of the Trinity.

The Lost Melodies
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#49 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by The Lost Melodies »

tATaka vadam is bibhatsa and the kriti evaritO nE telpudunu seperately
I wish to differ. When you read Srimad Ramayana of Valmiki, the description of Tataka evokes bayanaka rasa (at least to me) and Rama's valour is very much described in Tataka vadham, placing it under vIra rasa. So, the perception differs. You can listen to the discourse. That doesn't mean you must agree to all the subjective elements.

I definitely agree Valmiki's Ramayana is replete with navarasa. At the same time, classifying the events based on the rasa, at times is subjective.
Recently it was pointed out by NSG, and may be this is well known but I haven't noticed/thought about it, the SanaiScara kriti divAkara tanujam is in a slow moving rAga, by the very nature of the rAga itself, YK , to indicate the slow moving planet of Saturn.
Nice that you have brought this point. YK is not a slow-paced raga, neither the mentioned kriti. We have established an identity to raga and sincerely this norm is followed.
Any raga can be manipulated to the need of a composer. But the composer has to be knowledgeable and wise. This gives multiple hues to a raga. Certainly, this element is missing in many of the recently tuned kritis.

YK has been handled in a much faster manner (than many of the current renditions) by musicians like GNB. The same can be noticed with Manji and Kaanada. Nowadays, we hear only slow renditions in this raga. Another raga that falls into this category is Nilambari. Exaggerated kampita gamaka employed in these ragas may be attributed as one of the reason.
But here the rAgA phrases themselves are slow.
Not at all. Divakara tanujam, if rendered as prescribed by Sri Subbarama Diksitar swings between rendunkettan kaalam to slightly brisk pace (than what is heard now). This can be seen in the kriti 'parthasarathi' of SuRa too.

Here is a beautiful rendition of this kriti:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDsDLyudWQE

This can be anywhere graded between rendumkettan or slightly brisk (than other kritis in this raga).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwJx8g_seSo

Here is the version, as prescribed by Subbarama Diksitar, presented within my capacity. Again it can be placed in either of the category mentioned above.

The reason for this pace is not due to the liberty taken by the singer; rather it is due to the phrases employed by the composer.

We should not resort to anthropological analysis of actual peoples/groups when discussing tradition,
We are not disputing the existence of navarasas or any other topic pertaining to sastra. We are dealing with the perception of navarasas by different individuals with varied mindsets. When both of us can differ in interpreting the rasa of a solitary event, why not others differ? You cannot compel others to interpret in the same way as you do. This is dealing with emotions and not with a theorum.
Suddha gAndhara is to be considered bibhatsa, it depends on the handling of them. In rakti / gana rAgas like varALi the effect of vivadi is mitigated by vakra and approach to the svara itself. vAgadheeswari without vakra - the approach is with a jAru.
Varali is no more a strict vivadhi raga. The vivadhi svara of Vagadisvari need not be always approached with a jaru (here the vivadhi said to evoke bIbatsa is not used. Hence this is not a good example). Using a gamaka is up to a composer and when he has not notated his gamakas, it is up to the musician who renders the kriti. Can you prove Tyagaraja Svamigal has used jaru in Vagadisvari to approach the vivadhi svara shatsruti rishabha?

When you take the ragas taking suddha gandara and suddha rishaba, the phrases don't differ much (I am talking about melakartas and not ragangas. Second, I am considering only these two svaras). In such a case, every other raga must evoke the same rasa. Is that happening?

To summarise, it is not wise to impose our emotions on others. Our music has changed. The ragas, gamakas and the way of rendering have changed. A composition or a raga has to be approached keeping these in mind.

P.S I have clearly placed my points. In case you find difficulty in understanding, please let me know. At the same time, please try to avoid reiterating the mentioned point again.

Ranganayaki
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#50 Re: Sindhu Kanada

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 06 May 2021, 08:49

P:S: @Ranganayaki : CM has some dark stuff hidden and rAgas employed for it too!
I hadn’t participated in this thread, is this a reference to what I wrote in the TMK knowledge-sharing thread?

Pl give me an example of hidden darkness.. ragas employed for any thème don’t bother me. I wouLD appreciate the versatility.

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