Raga phrases riding on consonant extensions

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2012, 23:46

An odd topic probably but I have been meaning to talk about this for quite a while but could not come up with a good representative example. I hit up on that today. This topic may border on CM geekiness, so beware! Also, I use the word 'stop consonant' and 'extension' in specific ways since I could not think of a better words to describe them. You will know what I mean. May be another word extension is 'movement'.

One thing that is fascinating about CM for me is the various ways in which the raga identify ( 'chayal' ) is imbued into small portions of words, or syllables or even part of a syllable. To do that, the composer needs an extension of that syllable so the core phrases of the raga can ride on it. A lot of times, they ride on the vowel extensions. That is natural and normal since it is possible to extend a single vowel for a whole tala cycle! Thyagaraja is the master at this and all of this seen in abundance in sangathis and extending different vowels is one of the techniques Thyagaraja employs for such sangathi building.

Even more fascinating is the extension on stop consonants ( in Tamil, it is called 'mei' in contrast to 'uyir mei' ). It is impossible to do extensions on the consonants of K, Ch, T, Th, P ( the vallinam/hard consonants ) but other consonants provide for such extensions. I guess 'M' is more commonly seen and the rest of the iDayinam/middle consonants ('ng','g', 'n', 'M', 'N' ) and the Mellinam/soft ones 'y', 'r', 'l', 'v' 'zh', 'L' should also be amenable to 'extensions on the stop' to varying degrees. Hope I am conveying clearly what I mean by 'stop' consonants, the sound without the vowel sound at the end of it.

The example I chanced up on today is kAru_vElpulu_nIku_sarikAru - kalyANi. This song has been in my 'to listen' list for 30 months after being introduced to it in this thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... i&start=50 . BTW, it is a great thread, check it out. If you need to be introduced to some new songs in popular major ragas, that is where to go.

Downloaded the M.S. Sheela version of kAru vElpulanIku' from here http://www.sangeethamshare.org/tvg/SEAS ... arAjar.mp3 and listened to it today. There are ample illustrations of what I am talking about with the extensions on the letter 'l' of the word vel. First of all, the song itself is just awesome sung excellently by M.S. Sheela. I heard the Alathur Brothers' famed version as well which is also incredibly good, the recording quality of the Sheela version is better for illustration purposes in this thread. The way the sangathis are built up on the words "kAru vel pula nIku sari" is quite special.

The extension on 'l' ( in vEl ) in the context of the extensions on the vowles on 'A' and 'u' in kAru is what caught my attention. Right in the first sangathi, the extension on 'l' of Vel is quite small but it has got so much kalyani right in it and it just goes exponential after it.

Obviously, this is not the only example in CM, this is pretty stand fare and hence should be in abundance, though constant extension may be much less than extensions on vowels.

The extension/movement on a stop consonant itself is intriguing but if it is imbued quite richly with a characteristic raga phrase that makes it maximally awesome.

What other such consonant based movement have you found quite enjoyable and in which song, what are some really long ones, what are some short consonant based movement that just brilliantly carries a nugget of a raga?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Sep 2012, 00:09

Interesting but well-known observation VK!
This is the reason Telugu is the language of choice for CM.
Tamil clips the words which do not permit the elaboration of notes. But Malayalam is in fact better though there were no vaggeyakara of repute (barring swathi).
Actually it is the 'aakaaram' which faciitates open throat singing. That is why music teachers recommend 'akaara saadhakam' very much.
Europen languages are the worst except perhaps Italian (?).

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Sep 2012, 15:21

Dear VK and CML, I am no expert on music or language but I feel that consonants are vital to expression in speech or musical syllables, of course in the company of vowels which are staple. Perhaps that is why consonants are called Vyanjana or spice, in Sanskrit!
Also notice that the raga scale is populated with Ri, Ma, Dha, Ni, rich with phonetic texture for expression.(Whereas Pa, Ga, Sa are more like middle order batsmen who add stability and substance to the score, and less sparkle perhaps.)

Further, nasality is key to expression, and hence there are 60% consonants in our phonetic alphabet.
Thus I feel VK's dissertation is simply drawing our attention to a crucial fact.

PS: Thanks to this discussion, I got to hear a solid Kalyani from Ms Sheela.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Sep 2012, 16:24

May I also add that I think consonants involve the tongue and hence give structure (=laya), texture and inflection to vocal expressions. Hence all konnakol uses consonants. That also means vocals by far excel instrumentals in impact if not in sweetness or strength.

As I write this, I am listening to MMI+LGJ+PSP!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2012, 22:08

Thanks CML and Rsachi for your thoughts on this.

Rsachi: Yes, good points. Consonants seem to provide the solidity and anchor points to the composition and hence their contribution to structure and laya.

CML: My point was the opposite of how you understood it to be! You are talking about vowel extensions and mine was about 'stop consonant' extension. I realize the word 'stop consonant' is not clear. May be people call it 'short consonants'. What I am referring to as the stop form of the consonant is the one with a 'dot' on the consonant letter in tamil and the devanagari equivalent (as in ம், म् ) and the non-stop form of the consonant is with out the 'dot' on it (as in ம, म). As an example of extending on both forms of the consonants, in singing the "kAru velpulanI" line there is one stop consonant extension in 'l' of 'vel', rest of it are vowel extensions even though kA, ru, ve, pu, la and ni are all associated with consonants. You are right about vowel extensions and open throat-ed singing. Stop consonant extensions would be the opposite and produce a totally different effect. Combination of both in right proportion is seen in well balanced composition.

I was not thinking of language differences when I wrote the above but thinking along those lines, I think the often repeated point about certain languages being not suitable for music are highly flawed. That is a different topic of course. If there are a lot of words that end in the Vallinam category of consonants ( K, Ch, T, Th, P, R ) that can be a problem. ( In vazhimaraiththirukkude, both Th and K can not be extended on but they do their musical anchor job quite nicely ). Otherwise I do not see why that is a big impediment, even if some words end in stop/short consonants. I understand if a lot of words in the language end in non-stop consonants, it is easier musically. May be those are points in favor of Telugu and Italian. I do not really know. That is a much wider topic indeed.

I am curious what other stop consonant extensions you have noticed in CM songs ( in any language ) that you enjoy and how many tala beats they hold the stop consonant on. In the 'vel' example above, in the later sangathis, she seems to hold it on 'l' for 1.5 two kaLai beats. I recall many examples of MD extending on 'l' ( ல் - ल् ) and M ( ம் - म् ) very nicely and it is highly sonorous. ( maragatha vallim is an example which has both instances of extensions on ल् and म् in one word, a long one indeed on ल् )

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 01 Sep 2012, 23:31

VK,
hiraNmayIm lakShmIm..lalithA?
I would also think MANY Tamil compositions. Kadai Kann in Begade?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Sep 2012, 01:55

vk,

People knowledgeable in linguistics may be able to clarify better but ..

Stop consonants I think are p,b,t,d,T,D, k,g etc. The l, L, zh is liquid (?), the n, m (and ~n etc.) are nasals. There is a more broader category: voiced vs. voice-less (p,b,t,d,T,D would fall into voiceless), which may serve somewhat better since liquids and nasals are voiced. However other consonants such f,v,s/S/sh,r,R etc. would also be voiced and most of those are normally not extended in CM (v maybe? e.g. MMI's sukhi ev.....varO

). Btw, "r" is morphed as zh in hindi film songs when extending.

In cm I think basically vowels, and among-non-vowels, nasals, and liquids are extended and I am guessing you are referring to the non-vowels.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Sep 2012, 02:55

Arun, Thanks. Yes, I am referring to the non-vowels. My usage 'stop consonant' is probably wrong. I used that to mean ம், म् vs ம, म . The former is the topic of this thread. The latter can be extended for any consonant and it is no different from a vowel extension. In Tamil, the former is the 'mei' (18 of them ) and the latter the 'uyir mei' ( 18*12 = 216 of them by pairing each consonant with each of the vowels ).

( A terminology detour: I did not want to use the 'voiced' vs 'unvoiced' since they already have a technical meaning. In the context of Plosives ( Vallinam ), for example, using Intentional Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) classifications: K, Ch, T, Th, P are unvoiced and their voiced equivalents are G, J, D, Dh, B. The latter set, the voiced variations of the unvoiced plosives, are also difficult to extend like the unvoiced ones. So, technically, it is not the voiced vs unvoiced classification that matters. The nasals are what Tamil calls mellinam and Tamil's IDayinam is IPA's Tap & Trill (r, R), Central Approximants ( V, Y, Zh) and Lateral Approximants ( l and L ). They all seem to be extendable to some degree or the other as you wrote ).

Given the above, can you re-formulate which consonants are typically extended in CM and which ones are not, considering all the 5 languages typically used in CM?

Terminology aside, yes, you are referring to the same thing as I am. With this in my consciousness, I am noticing quite a few non-vowel extensions in the songs than usual. It is still a small minority compared to the vowel extensions which are obviously everywhere!

Rsachi: Apt examples. Especially, kaDai kaN, the extension on 'N' is quite novel and catchy. That is the kind of stuff that prompted me to think along those lines. Extending it on a single note like a kArvai is one thing but letting a little bit of raga characteristic phrase ride on such consonant extension is quite another. The latter usually has a totally different feel from the typical usage of raga phrases riding freely on the vowel extensions.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 02 Sep 2012, 18:42

http://www.mediafire.com/?6ycw3uc0slvwlba

a nice track to play in the backround as the discussions progress

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Sep 2012, 07:02

Yes,indeed. Quite nice. Thanks Varsha.

Govindaswamy · Post by **Govindaswamy** » 05 Sep 2012, 05:34

VK
You have mentioned "I guess 'M' is more commonly seen and the rest of the iDayinam/middle consonants ('ng','g', 'n', 'N' ) and the Mellinam/soft ones 'y', 'r', 'l', 'v' 'zh', 'L' should also be amenable to 'extensions on the stop' to varying degrees. Hope I am conveying clearly what I mean by 'stop' consonants, the sound without the vowel sound at the end of it."

You have interchanged the iDaiyinam and mellinam consonants.
iDaiyinam consonants are ய், ர்,ல்.வ,ழ்,ள் (y, r,l.va,zh,L )
mellinam consonants are ங்,ஞ் ,ண்,ந், ம், ன் ( #n,~n ,N,n, m, n )
ன் (றன்னகரம்) is unique to Tamizh. Many Tamilians do not know the difference in pronunciation between ந and ன.

Tamil as compared to other South Indian languages has more consonant endings. However the last consonant automatically joins (இயல்புப்புணர்ச்சி - iyalbuppuNarcci) with the vowel in the beginning of the following word.
Any Tamil or Sanskrit word with a consonant ending takes on the extra vowel 'u' உ in Kannada or Telugu.
Few examples of Tamizh to KannaDa changes are given below.
நான் – நானு
அவன் –அவனு
ஏன்-ஏனு
அவள்-அவளு,
அவர்-அவரு
யார்-யாரு

(Translitration
nAn – nAnu
avan –avanu
En-Enu
avaL-avaLu,
avar-avaru
yAr-yAru )

Sanskrit words ending in visraga take endings of mu,Du,Lu in Telugu and Kannda.
Govindaswamy

pattu · Post by **pattu** » 05 Sep 2012, 12:02

I have a question. Don't know whether it is relevant to this thread.

In the Ananda Bhairavi Navavaranam (Kamalamba Samrakshatumam), in the beginning of the anupallavi, everyone sings it as 'sumanasArAdItAbjamukhi' whereas it should be sumanasrArAditAbjamukhi (sumanasa ArAdita abja mukhi). Why can't it be sung as the latter instead of giving a dirgha to 'di'? Is it because it will sound inelegant?

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 05 Sep 2012, 18:30

It will sound inelegant as you have rightly put it if you sing kuril (hrsva) 'i'. At that place there is nothing wrong in singing it as dheerga but see to it that the dheerga (ArAdeetAbja) does not prolong too much. That will give rise to another kind of inelegance. Your e-mail query on whether we can split it as sumanasa ArAdita abja mukhi and sing, well, the tALa does not seem to allow it unless you rush it and that will again sound inelegant. But we'll see if other forumites have a different idea.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Sep 2012, 19:13

Sri. Govindaswamy, Yes I interchanged it wrongly in the first post though I got it right in a later post. Thanks for the correction.

Thanks for the other info. That makes sense and the relevance to the music.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Sep 2012, 21:11

VK
Now I get your drift. Why no non-vowels in CM?
I believe Arabic will be most unsuitable for CM on that score.
But then ARR has done some work on that. His
ஒட்டகத்தை கட்டிக்கோ (oTTagattai kaTTikkO)
கட்டியாக ஒட்டிக்கோ (kaTTiyAga oTTikkO)
வட்ட வட்ட பொட்டுக்காறி...(vaTTa vaTTa poTTukkARi...)
is a nice Dharmavathi though not very classical. In fact most of the Gaanaa
songs in the movies now are some adaptations of CM to Arabic tunes with heavy emphasis on
nonvowels with overpowering Tala beats..
Because of its immense popularity among the common folks
is it possible that CM may evolve in that direction in future ?
(God Forbid

Govindaswamy · Post by **Govindaswamy** » 06 Sep 2012, 04:40

VK
All consonants are of ½ mAttirai (மாத்திரை) duraion. But in music this rule does not apply. You have rightly said that it is easy to extend the duration of vowels and some consonants.
My observaions are as below.
1. All vowels are expressed with mouth open. It is easy to elongate a,i,u,e,ai and o. If the word ending is a short vowel the extension of the vowel sound does not distort the the meaning because the singer first first pronounces the short vowel and then stretches the vowel. This is called அளபெடை (aLabeDai). (e.g) உ ..... அல்லது ஊ...... (u ..... or U......)
Long vowel endings are sung with elongation. (extended visargam)

2 The mouth is open while pronouncing the nasal consonants also. (மெல்லினம் - mellinam ). ங்,ஞ்,ண்,ந்,ம்,ன். ( #n,~n,N,n,m,n. ) Out of the above six the extension of stop consonants ண், ம், ன் (N, m, n ) in music is more common. I have not come across of extension of ங்,ஞ். (#n,~n)
3 The mouth is also open while pronouncing the இடையின (iDaiyina) consonants ய்,ர்,ல்,வ்,ழ்,ள். (y,r,l,v,zh,L.)

4 In the kriti ' kAru vElpulu nIku sari' (Other Gods won’t become equal to You) You have pointed out the extension on 'l' ( in vEl ) and the extensions on the vowles on 'A' and 'u' in kAru". In the above song do we not here a subtle 'u' appearing as velupulu. Incidentally vElupu is the colloquial form. Extension of vowels with the continuation of the preceding vowel sound is normal.

5 The following other songs in which the consonants have been extended have been pointed out are 1) hiraNmayIm lakShmIm and 2) Kadai Kann

I think that in the above examples the consonants at the end have taken the vowel 'u' to allow the stretching.

Rsachi-
You have said 'Perhaps that is why consonants are called Vyanjana or spice, in Sanskrit!'
Shall I give my personal opinion as to why consonants are called as மெய்யெழுத்துகள் (meyyezhuttugaL) in Tamil. Consonants have no independent sound in any languages, just like (மெய்- mei) a body without life ( uYir ) is only a form/corpse. Unless preceded/or succeeded by a vowel consonants have no independent existence. Hence மெய் ( mei ) + உயிர் ( uyir becomes உயிர் மெய் (uyir mei) and not மெய்யுயிர். (meyyuyir)

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Sep 2012, 05:29

Sirs, as I cannot read Tamil script, my ability to participate in this discussion is becoming very limited.
Just my last bit here: in my opinion, apart from consonants and vowels playing a role in forming and strengthening different gamakas to emphasize and enhance raga brava, they are yet only one facet of the 'maatu' in music. The lyric has to inform, channelize the bhava and find a place in the heart of the listener. That involves the inherent musicality of the words as well as the weight of devotional or emotional thought. So all in all, maatu is for me a big deal.
I wish all the Rasikas great musical listening.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2012, 10:31

Rsachi, sorry about that. I have added transliteration to posts above. Sri. Govindaswamy, please do add transliteration and meaning so everyone can follow along. Thanks. ( for my efforts, Arun's transliteration tool is wonderful, it came in so handy - http://arunk.freepgs.com/cmtranslit/editor.php )

CML: That film song does not seem to have extension of consonants. In addition to kArvai like consonant extension what I also look for is the key raga phrase riding on that consonant extension ( like in Ms. Sheela's 'vel' ). That is a tough thing to pull off.

Govindaswamy; I will listen to those instances in Hiranmayim, kaDai kaN and kAru vElpulu to see if I can also sense a subtle vowel extension to those short consonants.

>I have not come across of extension of ங்,ஞ். (#n,~n)

While mulling this, I could not think of a Tamil example but thought of MD's rangapuravihara, there is an extension on the 'ng'. Just Beautiful.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2012, 21:08

VK
Gamakam is the life of CM.
How can we have gamaka with the cosonants (half matra) without elongation through the vowels?
The anuswaras however are dfferent due to the nasalization.
Isn't the clipping (non elongation) the reason for the Piano being declared unsuitable as a CM instrument?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2012, 21:31

CML, Listen to the 'vel' of karu velpulu, the extension on 'l' with gamaka which is not a vowel extension.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2012, 21:51

Just listened.
It is 'vibrato'. What kind of a gamakam is that?
But then the 'semi vowels' do permit a marginal gamakam delivery as against the anuswarams which can bear the full swing...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2012, 21:59

In addition to the gamaka, what is significant for me is that the little extension on 'l' carries the kalyani stamp so unambigously and clearly and it is slightly different in each of the sangathis.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Sep 2012, 22:48

That 'l' is bang on the prati madhyamam which she is shaking.
I agree it is important in Kalyani. She follows up as
MPMGGRS, very nice Kalyani.
What has it got to do with 'l'?
You can ride any note on 'l' on any raga and prolong!
It is the followup velpu that is important ....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2012, 06:05

>What has it got to do with 'l'? You can ride any note on 'l' on any raga and prolong!

CML, not a single note. I am not good at swara identification but she is changing swaras on that 'l', does not she?

As another example, consider, maragathavallim ( kambhoji ), in the versions I have heard, the 'l' extension carries kambhoji characteristic phrase.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Sep 2012, 07:19

VK,
Another consonant extension example: MD's sri rAmam (m) ravi kulAbdhi sOmam (m) in nArAyaNa gowLa. Listen to more in bhUsuram, bhajEham and so on as the song progresses.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2012, 11:27

Thanks Arasi. Listened to a version now. Yes, there are those swara changing 'm' extensions, especially a slide down to the next lower swara. The 'm' of rAmam is an extension on the same swara but put to good effect, I think. M is the master of M

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Sep 2012, 20:31

Of course the anuswaras are almost as important as the vowels.
Nice to note that 'il' has the same felicity of riding the notes without moving the tongue or lips! On the other hand with 'ik' or 'ip' or ic' the tongue or lips are stuck tight and there is no relief wtihout seeking help from the vowels. In fact 'iL' also has the same felicity whereas 'izh' does not. 'ir' has the trill which is too rough for CM music but is still msical elsewhere with its airplane rumble

It is nice and educational to explore the intrinsic 'musical fitness' of each letters of our alphabet.
Thanks VK for the stimulating idea!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Sep 2012, 22:21

VK has Very Keen ears for such not oft-thought of stuff and it helps me grow a bit in my lateral thinking, I suppose

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Sep 2012, 22:51

VK = Lateral thinking
Arasi = Backward thinking ( looking into past!)
Arun = Forward thinking (always innovative/incisive)
...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2012, 23:05

I see what you did there Arasi. Very keen indeed.

I do not really know what lateral thinking is, but it sounds cool, I will take it!!

We now have a football team

CML, I am glad you added the parenthetical meaning to backward. In reality, Arasi looks in all three directions equally well, so she is an LBFer.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2012, 00:20

You are quite right VK!
The word 'arasi' can be derived from sanskrit 'RiShi' with the 'a' pratyayam!
And RiShi intrinsically is 'darshaka' (the Seer(in all directions) ) in vedic sense which in Tamil is 'paarpaan'
whose feminine is 'pAppAtthi' (exclude the derogatory meaning) and she is the best
of its kind!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Sep 2012, 01:54

vk,

you may be able to find more of these consonant extensions in varnams m.., n.., n...c, n..k, even v.... (for example, viriboni has a fairly large extension on "v" in its charanam).

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Sep 2012, 04:14

'pAr'pAthiyO (darsaka) allavO?
thI vaLarthEnO illaiyO?
pATTiyAip paravasam koLvadu maTTum
maTTilAduNDu, uNDu!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 08 Sep 2012, 05:21

RaviSri wrote:It will sound inelegant as you have rightly put it if you sing kuril (hrsva) 'i'. At that place there is nothing wrong in singing it as dheerga but see to it that the dheerga (ArAdeetAbja) does not prolong too much. That will give rise to another kind of inelegance. Your e-mail query on whether we can split it as sumanasa ArAdita abja mukhi and sing, well, the tALa does not seem to allow it unless you rush it and that will again sound inelegant. But we'll see if other forumites have a different idea.

I respectfully disagree. I think it would sound just as good if we sang 'ArAdhitAbja-mukhi' where the emphasis and elongation/shake is transferred from 'dhi' to 'tA'. It is just that we dont by common practice (i would not elevate it with the word "sampradAyam'). To be sure there are many places where it seems quite a challenge to be mindful of the long and short vowels but this one is not one of those in my opinion.

Of course in reality the line is sung more like "sumana sArA dhI tAbja mukhi' but that is for another thread.

-Thenpaanan

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Sep 2012, 10:13

Thanks Arun. Yes, I see what you say about 'v' in the charanam of Viriboni. When you wrote 'n..k' you mean extension on 'n' ending in 'k' or extension on 'k' itself? I thought 'k' is not possible given that it is a plosive.

CML: Can you please explain Anuswara with some examples. I read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuswara but I do not quite get it.

Govindaswamy · Post by **Govindaswamy** » 08 Sep 2012, 20:08

In posting # 14 I have made a wrong statement " The mouth is open while pronouncing the nasal consonants also." I had in mind the uyirmei letters (உயிர்மெய்-) #na,~na,Na,na,ma,na and not the consonants (மெய்யெழுத்துகள்) #n,~n,N,n,m,n which you are calling as stop consonants. I stand corrected.

All of us agree that any vowel sound can be stretched, whereas only few consonats can.
The extension of the following consonants are under discussion.
l/ல் ల్, ಲ್, ല്, ल्
m/ம் మ్, ಮ್, മ് , म्
N/ண், ణ్, ಣ್, ണ്, ण्
n/ன், న్, ನ್, ന്, न्
y/ய் య్, ಯ್, യ്. य्
and v/வ்,వ్., ವ್, വ്, व्
I felt that the origin of the letters determine whether they can be strtched or not ,during singing. So I referred to பிறப்பியல் (piRappiyal- origin of letters) in தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkAppiyam –tamizh grammar), because of my curiosity to know if where the 'stop consonant' ends may determine the ease or otherwise of extending it. My findings are given below.

1. When tip of tongue touches roots of top teeth 'l' /ல், is born. The mouth remaining open probably makes extension of 'l' possible. (Incidentally mouth is open while pronouncing vowels). As I already suggested in the kriti 'kAru vElpulu nIku sari' (Other Gods won’t become equal to You) does vElpulu become vElupulu while strtching 'l' ? Is the 'l' in the tamizh song ஆறுமோ ஆவல் (ArumO Aval- Will my desire get satisfied) is the 'l' at the end getting extended?
2. 'm'/ ம் is born when lips meet. Extension of 'm' is very common in songs and it is possible only with mouth closed. Probably the elongation is totally nasal. Words with 'm' ending are very many in dhIkshitar's songs, as in mantrAs like 'suklAmbharadharam vishNum'. tyAgarAjA's Sanskrit kriti 'nAda tanum ainsam' has also number of words with 'm' ending.
3. When the tongue bends and the tip touches the palate N/ண் is produced. Rsachi has pointed out the song 'kaDaik kaN'. In this case also the mouth is open, which probably this makes it easy to stretch the consonant.
VK- You have commented as " Especially, kaDai kaN, the extension on 'N' is quite novel and catchy." My doubt is whether the vowel 'u' makes a subtle appearance.

4 . 'n. is born when the tip of the tongue bends and touches upper palate at the roots of teeth. Here also the mouth is open.

5. 'y' is born when air is blown with mouth open. Even in the film song வராய் நீ வாராய் (you come) y is strtched.
6. 'v, is born when top teeth touch bottom lip. Top lip is open.
Arunk- You have mentioned "v maybe? e.g. MMI's sukhi ev.....varO "
The actual word is . evaRo. Please see the following songs : evarani nirNayincirirA, evarikai avatAramettitivo, evariccirirA Sara, evaritO nE telpudu, evari mATa vinnAvO, evarurA ninnu vinA. There are many more.
If MMI added an extra 'v' there is nothing wrong. Whatever he sang was melodious.

I am coming to the conclusion that the consonants ending with mouth open can be stretched. 'm' seems to be the major exception because nose takes over. In the song Sobhillu saptaswara, tyAgarAja mentions nose as the last place of saptaswarAs (nAsAdulayandu).

Though not having in depth knowledge of the science of music, I have dared to comment being a rasika.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2012, 20:33

Arun
Now I am totally lost (like VK)
How can one prolong 'k' or 'c' ?
VK
There are innumerable instances of anuswara extensions; some beautiful ones are by Chembai or Musiri (the master of nasality)!
Even arasi's example of the 'M' is a beautiful illustration.
Your illuminating example of non-anuswara 'l' was a revelation!
'L' will follow as a corolloray.
I am not too sure about 'v' since it it is not sustainable.
Remember the prolongation of ஞ் (gnya) by TMS in ThiruviLayaDal as a prelude to Gowrimanohari?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Sep 2012, 20:47

vk - yes the nasal part of nk/nc etc. is what is extended - cant extend ka, ca etc. as those consonants are stop and "unvoiced". Anuswaras are all over the place in CM. An easy example I can think of (hopefully this is a right example!): many times, even what may be perceived casually as a long flat note may not be rendered completely flat from beginning to end, but is approached from another note at the start for a fraction then held flat. For example, a p , may actually be (s/)p i.e. that pa would be taken from sa albeit very quickly (that it doesnt look like an obvious slide), and thus here sa is the anuswara.

cml - While musicians cant/dont, rasikas extend "c" all the time, albeit as a staccato tch. tch. tch. and shaking their heads in rhthmic at a concert

govindaswamy sir - yes thanks for the correction

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Sep 2012, 21:50

Arun, CML, Govindaswamy: Thanks all.

Arun, on Anuswara, I understand the musical meaning of it. But CML and the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anusvara seem to talk about it in the context of languages and sounds. It seems to be related to this subject as CML implies but I can not understand what it actually is from the Wiki description. It sounds too technical and I do not quite understand the meager examples provided. If it refers to the sound before the consonant, then it may not be related to this topic. I am not sure.

Govindaswamy: Thanks for the exhaustive treatment. I understand.

Now, more than ever, I am convinced that the 12 consonants can be extended with different levels of difficulty or ease. As you wrote, the mouth needs to be open for the air to flow freely through the mouth or the air has to freely flow through the nose ( with the tongue not blocking the internal nose hole! )

All, try this. the 12 consonants that are extendable are: ( from Tamil since that is what I am familiar with, but it should apply to other CM languages as well ):

( #n,~n,N,n,m,n. ) ங்,ஞ்,ண்,ந்,ம்,ன் - (soft consonants - மெல்லினம் - mellinam )
(y,r,l,v,zh,L ) ய்,ர்,ல்,வ்,ழ்,ள் (middle between hard and soft - இடையினம் - iDaiyinam )

Try to sing the following in Mohanam with the consonant extensions for each swara of the arohanam and avarohanam

Arohanam: v, r, y, l, L, zh
Avarohanam: zh, L, l, y, r, v

Arohanam: #n,~n,N,n,m,n
Avarohanam: n, m, n, N, -n, #n

Vocal anatomy for sound production wise, It is not impossible to do. Whether it is typically extended in CM songs is a different question. Just for fun, pay attention to the movement of the tongue as you do this, it travels around the entire palate!!

For the other 6 consonants ( the hard ones ), whether they are voiced (e.g. 'g') or unvoiced (e.g 'k' ), it is not possible to extend.

Arun, you said 'the nasal part of nk/nc etc. is what is extended - cant extend ka, ca etc. as those consonants are stop and "unvoiced".', can you clarify which sounds they are, and why the k and c at the end matter. Second, do you imply that voiced versions of 'k' and 'c' is extendable?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2012, 23:18

VK
I would cautiously add ஹ் to your list.
I am sure MD has used the visargam elsewhere which can be prolonged with limitations. I will look for an example.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Sep 2012, 02:48

What I meant is that when you are extending a "nk" part of e.g. vEnkatEswara, you are extending the nasal part (i.e. #n), and at the end only introduce the "k" sound (to transition to ka). That is somewhat stating the obvious.

I think anuswara in CM while may have originated from linguistic concepts is quite different in application at-least how we treat it today. I would not be surprised if these terms have evolved and maybe even completely changed in meaning over time.

Anuswara in scripts: In telugu and kannada scripts, the anuswara letter is used for #n, ~n, as well as m (as in karuNimpa). I am not 100% sure but I believe the phoneme is still #n, ~n here and not a separate common anuswara phoneme (although I have seen tamil CM books notate in tamizh as caMdra - as if you would have to pronounce it that way - i believe that is not correct). In sanskrit, I have heard that this (always using anuswara) is not the case i.e. in some cases it would be #nka and in some cases it would Mka (M => anuswara), and I think it depends on the root word etc. (??). Although here also some people in practice use the telugu/kannada schemes of always using anuswara
(Note/Caveat/Warning: I picked these up when implementing the transliterator - my knowledge is still second-hand only).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Sep 2012, 04:21

Thanks Arun. I get it now.

Govindaswamy · Post by **Govindaswamy** » 09 Sep 2012, 17:54

arunk

Anuswara in scripts: In telugu and kannada scripts, the anuswara letter is used for #n, ~n, as well as m (as in karuNimpa)

I would like to make the following addition. In Telugu and Kannada the letter representing anuswara is sunna 'o'. The anuswara adds a sound similar to the sound of m in "sum" to the syllable. I do not know if there is any difference in pronunciation between anuswara and 'm' ending. (e.g) धनं (dhanam, wealth) and दानम् (dAnam). You have mentioned that the anuswara letter is used for #n, ~n, as well as m (as in karuNimpa). Let me add that the sunna replaces all the nasal consonants, #na,~na,Na,ma,na ఙ్,ఞ్,ణ్,న్,మ్, ங்,ஞ்,ண்,ந்,ம்,ன். Hence these letters have become redundant. The sunna preceding different consonants takes the sound fitting the following consonamt. (e.g) #nka, ~nca ,Nta etc.
TamizhargaL find it strange that one symbol can take different nasal sounds, because Tamizh uses the respective consonants. I also, belonging to a Telugu family settled in TamizhNaDu few generations ago, found this to be strange when I started learing Telugu. During learning Telugu, some are likely to read as pamkajam, பம்கஜம் emta nErcinA, எம்த நேர்சினா etc.

What I meant is that when you are extending a "nk" part of e.g. vEnkatEswara, you are extending the nasal part (i.e. #n), and at the end only introduce the "k" sound (to transition to ka). That is somewhat stating the obvious.

The two examples given are karunimpa and vEnkatEswara. In the first one anuswara becoming 'm' is legitimate because it belongs to the same group,viz, pa, pha,ba &bha. In vemkatEswara 'n' obviously becomes #n and not the anuswara 'm'.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Sep 2012, 20:08

Govindaswamy, thanks. I learned a lot from the above post as to what anuswara is and how general it is ( meaning not just restricted to the m sound but can bring in all the nasal sounds based on context, did I get that right? ). I think you should enhance the content in Wikipedia. While reading that, I did not understand to this extent at all.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Sep 2012, 20:37

In sanskrit and it oriented languages where the 'bindu' is used, it masks the origin of the sound which is to be inferred from the preceding letter, whereas there is no ambiguity in Tamil.
Historically that shows that Tamil evolved independantly.
Am I right?

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 11 Sep 2012, 18:43

In sanskrit and it oriented languages where the 'bindu' is used, it masks the origin of the sound which is to be inferred from the preceding letter, whereas there is no ambiguity in Tamil.
Historically that shows that Tamil evolved independently.

Not true. CML, sanskRt most definitely uses the nasal of the respective varga in both spelling and pronunciation. It is a vagary of time that we have come to a degree of sloppiness, where the anuswAra is used for all nasals in languages like Hindi, KannaDa and Telugu. This most certainly is a recent development, that has crept even into the Apte SanskRt dictionary.

Also, script is much in a phase lag vis-a-vis the development of language and literary culture, that it can hardly be used as a reliable marker to trace the development of languages.

You have mentioned that the anuswAra letter is used for #n, ~n, as well as m (as in karuNimpa). Let me add that the sunna replaces all the nasal consonants, #na,~na,Na,ma,na ఙ్,ఞ్,ణ్,న్,మ్, ங்,ஞ்,ண்,ந்,ம்,ன். Hence these letters have become redundant. The sunna preceding different consonants takes the sound fitting the following consonant. (e.g) #nka, ~nca ,Nta etc.

TamizhargaL find it strange that one symbol can take different nasal sounds, because Tamizh uses the respective consonants. I also, belonging to a Telugu family settled in TamizhnADu few generations ago, found this to be strange when I started learing Telugu. During learning Telugu, some are likely to read as pamkajam, பம்கஜம் emta nErcinA, எம்த நேர்சினா etc.

Please see here

I do not know if there is any difference in pronunciation between anuswara and 'm' ending. (e.g) धनं (dhanam, wealth) and दानम् (dAnam).

This one is easy to answer. There is no difference in the pronunciation of the anuswAra [अं] and the makAra with a halanta [म्]. There is a rule about when each of them is used in writing. This is even described as a sandhi called anuswAra-sandhi [sUtra - mOnuswAraH] according to which

1. the m at the end of a word is converted to anuswAra if followed by a (word beginning with a) consonant.
e.g. रामं भजेहम् not रामम् भजेहम्

2. If the word ending with 'm' is followed by a (word beginning with a vowel, or
e.g. रामम् आराधये not रामं आराधये

2.5. if the word is at the end of a line in a verse or at the end of a sentence, it is retained as म्.

e.g. नीलाम्बुद-श्यामल-कोमलाङ्गं सीता-समारोपित-वाम-भागम् |
पाणौ महासायक-चारु-चापं नमामि रामं रघुवंश-नाथम् ||

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Sep 2012, 19:54

Thanks keerthi for the clarification.
There is no confusion on the use of anuswara as from Panini. The problem arises only in the notation which is of later origin. Even Apte uses them correctly after the right letters alphabetically which however confuses the transliterations, especially into Tamil which uses separate letters for the anuswarams.

Sanskrit also uses anunasika (the one with the chandra kala) which is distinguished from the anuswara (Pan 1.1.08). Whereas the pure nasal is anuswara,the anunasika is different inasmuch as in pronouncing it breath passes through the nose and the mouth (मुखनासिका). In vedic recitations it plays an important role. There are no equivalent notations in Tamil (or other dravidian languages AFAIK) for this. Please enlighten me if you know of any. Has MD ever used it in his kritis? Or more generally does it play a role in CM except in Vedic recitations?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Sep 2012, 20:38

Thanks for an excellent link.

With some apprehension, I dare wonder if some of these mechanics is theory overriding practice (not uncommon in language and music - theories sometimes treats things as black and white, when practice is a greyscale) rather than just reflecting then current practices of a then widely spoken language - but i admit that i am hypothesizing here).

Or perhaps, they are meant for very specific contexts as in recitation of vedas etc.

I wonder because I am intrigued particularly by the meaning of the statement:

The anuswAra is an after-sound, a nasal sound following a vowel. It is sounded through the nose only and should be independent of mouth position.

I may be misinterpreting things here but it seems to me it is not possible to have the aural properties of a sound emitted through the nose be completely unaffected by the mouth position (closed, half-open, fully-open, wide-open). That seems to be required for the above statement to hold true and which would be required for the anuswara to have an uniquely assignable sound.

Arun

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 11 Sep 2012, 20:56

Guys on a related subject, i just read that someone has done some massive research to find out why coffee that smells so good while brewing doesn't taste as good when sipped. They found out that the anu-nasika effects of coffee smell work in the opposite way since coffee when sipped tickles the smell sense via the mouth-nasal passage, and therefore we are a bit underwhelmed while drinking coffee. All along I have smelt that something lies deeply hidden in all these related matters and now I get that exhilarating sense of clarity so well depicted in those old ads for Halls Metholyptus Vapour Action Ke Saath.

PS wanted to add a telling smiley but found no smiley shows the nose!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Sep 2012, 21:12

Arun
anunasika is used primarily in vedic recitations with its particular enunciation. It is not distinguished by the participation of the mouth.
In fact in all the anuswaras all of nose, throat, tongue, lips (the whole vocal apparatus) participate in varying degrees!

Should the anuswaras always be on a high pitch?