Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

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satyabalu
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Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by satyabalu »

This is an extract from The Hindu review of a concert.
"The Bhairavi alapana, (which was, thankfully, the regular version of the raga and not the ‘Dikshitar school’ version that the vocalist usually opts for"
Can someone tell what is the difference ? Does the difference exist?

sureshvv
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by sureshvv »

One of the numerous mix ups in the review?

RaviSri
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by RaviSri »

There is no such difference. It exists only in the imagination of some people. This critic must be one of them. Shows how these critics have not bothered to study either Thyagaraja or Dikshitar but are vain enough to blabber some rubbish. BTW, why do these people not talk of Shyama Sastri. He has two beautiful songs in Bhairavi, including the epic swarajati. Shows how pedestrian the critic's knowledge is. And these are the people who are commissioned to write reviews.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by vijay.siddharth »

RaviSri wrote: 21 Jan 2018, 18:33 There is no such difference. It exists only in the imagination of some people. This critic must be one of them. Shows how these critics have not bothered to study either Thyagaraja or Dikshitar but are vain enough to blabber some rubbish. BTW, why do these people not talk of Shyama Sastri. He has two beautiful songs in Bhairavi, including the epic swarajati. Shows how pedestrian the critic's knowledge is. And these are the people who are commissioned to write reviews.
Sir, Syama Sastri has 3-4 songs in Bhairavi - one varnam (Vanita Ninne, which is attributed to Thiruvarur Ramaswami Pillai because of the Vedapuri mudra), one geetham (Parvathi Janani, Khanda Jathi Mathya Talam), one krithi (Sari Evaramma, Khanda Jhampa), and one Swarajathi (Kamakshi, Mishra Chapu). With the exception of Vanitha Ninne, all of them are found in TK Govinda Rao's compendium of Syama Sastri, Subbaraya Sastri, and Annaswami Sastri compositions.

satyabalu
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by satyabalu »

sureshvv wrote: 19 Jan 2018, 21:18 One of the numerous mix ups in the review?
The review also says " The artiste follows MD style of Bhairavi".
Wish We write to the reviewer on this!

sureshvv
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by sureshvv »

May be better to write to The Hindu and ask them to assign the reviewing task to people who don't make up stuff.

narayan
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by narayan »

Dear sataybalu, perhaps the reviewer has not given any more information on this issue, but you can point us to the full review, so that we can see the context. I have heard of this issue in other context, and I don't find it a totally unimaginable matter that Tyagaraja and Diksitar handled some ragas differently, as per the conventions at the time. In fact, it is quite instructive to see what happened and when. To me, it seems possible that what Diksitar and his school called Sahana had a suddha gandharam and Tyagaraja and co sang Sahana with an antara gandharam. Over time, the antara gandharam won and at least the navavarnam of Diksitar is now sung with this. For the purpose of demonstration, some are singing the other Diksitar song with the lower gandharam, but that is the only remnant of the Diksitar Sahana. That does not in any way detract from the beauty of any song or the brilliance of any composer. There are many ragams where this could have happened and perhaps Bhairavi is one of them.

Dear RaviSri, what the reviewer should have done in addition to what was written, is a big ocean and fortunately vijay.siddharth has picked up on what you said and given us a lot of information (although not on the question that was raised). So is it that the issue raised by satyabalu is meaningless? It may be a strong consensus in favour of a common raga concept by both composers, but having seen Darbar and some other ragas handled by both Tyagaraja and Diksitar, one does wonder.

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by bhakthim dehi »

I like to say 2 things here.
1. Bhairavi, what we hear today cannot be called as Bhairavi. Original Bhairavi is no more. Lakshanam was different. But who cares?
2. Two school concept is a hoax. You can read my other posts to get an idea about the similarities in handing of ragas.

sureshvv
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by sureshvv »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 27 Jan 2018, 22:03 1. Bhairavi, what we hear today cannot be called as Bhairavi. Original Bhairavi is no more. Lakshanam was different. But who cares?
Can you please throw some light about how it has changed over time and by who, when etc.? I have heard that Bhairavi has become more like Manji over the years.

ratanabhinav
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by ratanabhinav »

sureshvv wrote: 28 Jan 2018, 11:38
bhakthim dehi wrote: 27 Jan 2018, 22:03 1. Bhairavi, what we hear today cannot be called as Bhairavi. Original Bhairavi is no more. Lakshanam was different. But who cares?
Can you please throw some light about how it has changed over time and by who, when etc.? I have heard that Bhairavi has become more like Manji over the years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51RdCp5_Q8
Here it is

narayan
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by narayan »

ratanabhinav wrote: 28 Jan 2018, 12:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51RdCp5_Q8
Here it is
Thanks. Heard the portion regarding Bhairavi. Quite educative and balanced. She did admit in passing that Tyagaraja and Diskshitar may have had different views on Manji at least! Later she says that Tyagaraja's sri ragam is without a dha and Diskshitar's is with. This seems ok to me and seems to be accepted without too much controversy.

I am quite interested in this whole matter. What I can say is that when I hear the Bhairavi navavarnam or the padam Rama rama in Bhairavi, or for that matter Balagopala, it has a slightly different feel from a Koluvaiyunnade or a Tanayuni brova. I think many singers who take up Bhairavi for elaboration would sing it closer to the latter concept of Bhairavi. As hoaxes go, it is an interesting one, and certainly one that I have spent some time agonizing over, ever since the time Tanjavur Sankara Iyer said very cateogrically in a lec dem that what is sung today is Bhairavi is Manji (returning to the original point). At that time he made a strong plea for more vigorous use of the higher dhaivatam in more phrases than we would feel comfortable with today. I remember completely stopping any attempt at Bhairavi raga for quite some time after that. Fortunately got over that phase!

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Bhairavi had a lot of suddha dhaivata phrases. Chathusruthi dhaivatham occurs only in very few phrases. Contrast it with the present day Bhairavi!!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by vasanthakokilam »

bhakthim dehi ,
How long back we are talking about when the Bhairavi was considerably different?
How do you know that with that much certainty? From books or anecdotes by masters ( or heard them say ) or past recordings?

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by bhakthim dehi »

I don't know when and why it got changed. But, they were recorded by three different persons in their books.

shreyas
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Re: Bhairavi handled in different versions -by Thiagarajar and Dikshidhar

Post by shreyas »

The review is regarding Vid. T M Krishna, I believe? I remember going through it as well. So basically what it is, that is when singing the Dikshithar krithi Bala Gopala in Bhairavi, Vid. T M Krishna uses what he calls the Dikshithar school Bhairavi, which uses Shuddha Dhaivata instead of Chatusruthi Dhaivata in the arohana. Even in his commercial album you can hear him sing it like that the whole alapana through, after which he gives a small example and clarifies the doubt. Thyagaraja in krithis like Koluvai, Upacharamulanu and Lalithe uses the Bhairavi that we are used to. So does Adiyaapaiyer in Viriboni, which is what our maverick vocalist used as the main in the concert reviewed.

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