ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

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RSR
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ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by RSR »

I have been trying to get the information about the ragam of one of the best songs by Smt.MS for a long time with no success. The song is partly like 'unaiye enathuyir' in Tamil film Meera ( 1945). but this hindi song is a separate record . Music might have been composed by S.V.Venkataraman or Piano Vaidhyanathan. It is a Meera bajan but not in the film Meera ( Hind-1947).
Is it some HM ragam similar to and based on Mayamalavagowla "? What is the exact ragam, if so?
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... e-dharsana

Ranganayaki
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Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

I began by thinking in Carnatic idiom, thought the first line sounded like Behag and the second like Hamsanandi, and wondered if it was a line-by-line ragamalika. But the rest of the song doesn't seem to follow that pattern. I changed tack and considered Hindustani ragas. I came to think it is a ragamalika with two ragas, the first being Puryadhanashri, and the second Charukesi.

RSR, Puryadhanashri seems to be the Hindustani equalent of Pantuvarali ( and Pantuvarali is the pratmadhyama equalent of Mayamalavagowla, as you may know, and to answer your question). That said, Puryadhanashri has a lot of its own idiosyncrasies. It is not a strict equivalence to Pantuvarali, as I learned. I read that the madhyamam can occasionally be sung as shuddha, and I did hear two Ma in the first line, and since it doesn't touch the Ri there, the PMGMG sounded like Behag. Some other prayogas described seem to match the song, including one involving Ri and Ga.The description of Puryadhanashri also accounted for the Hamsanandi feel! So I'm feeling pretty confident, though not completely certain.

Please let me know also if you agree with me that it is Charukesi. Anyone who knows these ragas, please pitch in, and tell me if you think I'm on the right track.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by RSR »

@2->RN-> I am giving the similar song from tamizh Meera of Smt.MS ( 1945) . It begins with 'charaacharam yaavum' .which I was told is in Hamsanandhi.
http://picosong.com/ziaF
After that, the main song begins with 'unaiye enathuyir endru....thavaro aiyaa'. These lines are exactly like the first part of pyare dharsana. I think, the thamizh song is in one ragam only.
Coming back to the hindi song. as you rightly feel, there are two ragams.
'aakula vyaakula ...'...line ,sounds very much like meru samaana in mayamalavagoula.

but the refrain in higher note (the charm of the song) differs much .
The Hindusthani equivalent of Mayamalavagoula being Bairav, the song may be of one of the great many variants of that scale in HM.
i am still trying to find a similar tune in CM for the second part. It cannot be charukesi .
Some ragam related to nadahnamakriya equivalent in HM? ? .No hurry.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 07 Mar 2018, 16:17 @2->RN-> I am giving the similar song from tamizh Meera of Smt.MS ( 1945) . It begins with 'charaacharam yaavum' .which I was told is in Hamsanandhi.
http://picosong.com/ziaF
After that, the main song begins with 'unaiye enathuyir endru....thavaro aiyaa'. These lines are exactly like the first part of pyare dharsana. I think, the thamizh song is in one ragam only.
Coming back to the hindi song. as you rightly feel, there are two ragams.
'aakula vyaakula ...'...line ,sounds very much like meru samaana in mayamalavagoula.

but the refrain in higher note (the charm of the song) differs much .
The Hindusthani equivalent of Mayamalavagoula being Bairav, the song may be of one of the great many variants of that scale in HM.
i am still trying to find a similar tune in CM for the second part. It cannot be charukesi .
Some ragam related to nadahnamakriya equivalent in HM? ? .No hurry.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

Yes, I forgot some parts without having what appeared to be mayamalavagowla, and I have to listen again. I do remember thinking it was interesting - Pantuvarali and mmg!!

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

I listened again. Now I remember why I forgot.. That stanza ends with a reprise of an earlier line tum bin rahyo na jaay. So the idea about the shifting ma also made me forget the difference I had noticed and didn't remember the clear difference I had heard.. It was not Pantuvarali and mmg that I had thought of as an interesting combo here but Pantuvarali (because of Puryadhanashri, can't help returning to the Carnatic idiom) and Vakulabharanam!

Yes, that line aakula vyakula is in Vakulabharanam. Vakulabharanam is very similar to mmg, only has a lower Ni (kaishiki nishadham). I forgot that part about the presence of the lower ni when I wrote.

Then comes the next stanza, which I thought was Charukesi, and would like confirmation. Will listen again, may be there are more subtleties like this. But I'm not changing anything now.

Ranganayaki
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Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

Again in deciding it was Charukesi, I forgot about the lower ga I had heard earlier and.. All very careless of me. The lower gandharam is the difference between Charukesi and Natabhairavi.

There is this section of the second part which is in Natabhairavi.

दिवस न भूख, नींद नहिं रैना,
मुख सूं कथत न आवे बैना।
कहा कहूँ कछु कहत न आवै,
मिलकर तपत बुझाय।।

The last part is in Charukesi.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

Natabhairavi of Carnatic, I just read, is the Asavari thaat of HM. I don't know if a thaat can also be called a raag, Or if the name changes.

So to sum up, there seem to be four ragas here, Puryadhanashri and Vakulabharanam, Natabhairavi and Charukesi.

Thanks for this exercise, corrections and new info are always welcome.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 07 Mar 2018, 20:02, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ok, I found this. There is an Asavari raga in Hindustani which is different from the Asavari thaat. Thaats are all sampoorna, as you may know, and this Asavari RAGA is said to belong to the Asavari thaat and seems to be what we would call a janya. But this Asavari raga is not outr asaveri because our Asaveri is a janya of Todi and has a lower rishabha.

Karnatic.com says that Natabhairavi is Asavari in Hindustaani. This seems to be incomplete information, and slightly erroneous, because there is the Asavari thaat, and an Asavari ragam as I explain above, and Natabhairavi is similar to the thaat.

So are thaats abstract concepts for the purpose of classification without a real musical existence unlike our 72 melakartas? Can someone help with this question?

RSR
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Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by RSR »

@8 and @9-> Ranganayaki-
> Thank you very much for the precious time and effort. As for your query regarding HM Thats, have a look at the thread initiated by Sachi Sir in HM section. there is a link to a nice and very much readable paper comparing CM and HM. ( Sodhganga) .
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Pyare dharsana seems to be a challenging composition. Kindly give me time to search and experiment if your guidance is correct. I think, the tamizh song that I have given link to, may be easier, having CM ragam(s) only. May I request you to listen and give the ragam para by para.? Not a lengthy song. ( beginning from 'unaiye enathuyir'_.

Ranganayaki
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Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by Ranganayaki »

And re.Nadanamakriya - it is like Mayamalavagowla without much of going lower than Nishadha in the mandarasthayee or above the Nishadha in the madhyamasthayee. No tarasthayee. It doesn't figure here.

Take your time and pl do give me feedback!

I haven't listened to your Tamil song link yet, will do so soon. Will check out rsachi's hm thread too soon.

Ive really enjoyed this thread! Thank you!

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: ragam of MS..Pyare Dharsana ..78 RPM RECORD 1947

Post by RSR »

Ranganayaki » 07 Mar 2018, 21:50
And re.Nadanamakriya - it is like Mayamalavagowla without much of going lower than Nishadha in the mandarasthayee or above the Nishadha in the madhyamasthayee. No tarasthayee. It doesn't figure here.
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I think, Nadhanamakriya was a favourite ragam of Smt.MS. There is a wonderful viruttham in thamizh Meera ( 1945) -a ragamalika...'udal uruga ', First stanza is poorvikaluyaaNi, the second is sahana and the third, if I am not mistaken, NadaNamakriya. beginning with 'idark kadalil meeravith thavikavitte' . It has a crescendo.
Udal uruga ullam uruga Meera 1945
https://youtu.be/pIZBTyVIOlc
( i do not identify ragams by notes and scales. but by known classics sung by great musicians. Only then I will be able to tap my memory cells and benefit by your advice.
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You may like this clip for 'characharam...unaiye ' ' ..Chara Charam unnia yavum Thedume Meera 1945
https://youtu.be/Ewu6fdvK0Tw
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MMG, NadhanAmakriya and PARAJ, being similar ragams,
here is paraj ...(Maravene ennalilume Meera 1945)
https://youtu.be/C32bliLshbc
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I dont think, it is all that important to find out where exactly these ragams differ. It is enough if we note the similarity. and get immersed in the bliss of the ragam and rendering.
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