Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

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shreyas
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Joined: 03 Mar 2018, 13:16

Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by shreyas »

In a rendition of the raga Sahana, krithi Ishanadi Sivakara Manche in Sahana, Vid. T M Krishna states before beginning the song that according to the Dikshithar tradition, Sahana uses a Sadharana Gandhara with merely scant usage of the regular, Antara Gandhara.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVpSKX1OASk
I am unable to find any other renditions of this krithi, so could anyone tell me if there is any recording of this song wherein the antara gandharam is used?

HarishankarK
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Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 11:55

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by HarishankarK »

I didn't like that TMK version too - would like to hear a proper sahana version

The other one avlbl is G Ravikiran who is TMK student - so I didn't even go and hear that

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by bhakthim dehi »

One another link is here.

https://youtu.be/4LHRX4odFkE

HarishankarK
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Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 11:55

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by HarishankarK »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 04 May 2018, 22:04 One another link is here.
https://youtu.be/4LHRX4odFkE
Winner of the slowest song in carnatic music.
This sahana is also a bit wierd only

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 539
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Sahana had both gandharas in the past.
Present Sahana might be weird for our composers of the past.

HarishankarK
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Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 11:55

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by HarishankarK »

You are correct - it is because of how we have gotten used to hearing the raga. The introduction of the other Ga changes the rasa of the raga

bhakthim dehi
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Very true.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by SrinathK »

Actually, I realize from this post that G2 has been in sahAnA all along even now. For example, the phrase P M G3 M - R G2 G2 R S. In RGGRS it is always G2. but in R G,R it is G3.

These are certain aspects of ragas that the melakartha system has made us forget (apart from the changes over time).

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by bhakthim dehi »

In the phrase RGGRS, we can hear a gandaram which is in between antara and sadharana varieties. Some use it as a sadharana gandaram itself, but it is not so common.
In the past, rgr also sported only sadharana gandaram.
Is the phrase rggr is often used in the present day renditions?

SrinathK
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Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by SrinathK »

The gamaka used for that phrase has a range of motion that is common to both G2 in kAnaDA and G3 in kalyANi, the slide of that kampita goes all the way up to G3. I always thought while the books said it as G3 in sahAnA, it was all the while being played much closer to a G2 in movement.

The way RGGRS is played in darbAr is also the same -- you can even extend the oscillation up to M1 when playing it as G,G,RS which is more than what you do when playing for sahAnA or kalyANi, and yet it is classified as G2 while the other two sound similar to G3. It's the same movement fundamentally and yet there can be no confusion between RGGRS in kalyANi or darbAr.

So it's not the gamaka you'd expect - if it was Shree, then RGGRS in endarO is very different.

These gamakas are in a certain special category where the boundaries between swaras begin to blur. Another one is the N2 in old sAvEri, it can very easily be interpreted by a less sensitive ear as N3. It's easy to see why these rAgas slightly changed on some of these parameters. This is not as glaring as a D1 to D2 change.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by SrinathK »

HarishankarK wrote: 05 May 2018, 15:36
bhakthim dehi wrote: 04 May 2018, 22:04 One another link is here.
https://youtu.be/4LHRX4odFkE
Winner of the slowest song in carnatic music.
This sahana is also a bit wierd only
Considering how the rAga usually sounds to my ears, I really wonder if gamakAs were this ... "rustic"... in those days or whether this is an effect of loss of fine detail in trying to notate them into a book -- all the 'SSP correct' versions sound strangely stripped down and the jhArus feel weird to my modern ears. The thing is, even the Dhannamal or Pattammal school didn't sing Dikshitar like that - no not even the gramaphone plates seem to suggest that ragas were this plain.

bhakthim dehi
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28

Re: Ishanadi Sivakara Manche - Sahana with a Sadharana Gandhara

Post by bhakthim dehi »

I feel gamakas were used less in those days. Few records like himachala tanaya of Kanchipuram Dhanakoti give us a clue. Also, we give much importance to kampitam. And kampitham was not used as profusely as it is being used now is my personal opinion.

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