mAnji
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Additionally- mAnji is mentioned as dESIya rakti rAga by mudduvenkaTamakhi.
hamvIruSca balAvalu dhanAsri malArukAh |
kakubhO mAnjI pUrvI cEtyEtE dESIyarAgakAh ||
Heres R.K.SrIkaThan-avhA`s opinion on mAnji. (thanks to my mother and guru who spoke to him on the phone)
Same scale as bhairavi. N,G sharper/higher than in bhairavi. In some phrases, when elongated shaken, gAndhAra lies between G2 and G3;-as when saying DPMG~~. G3 has not been used by MD or SS but Tamizh composer has used. jaNTi swaras are to be avoided in this raga. However GGRS, NNDP can be used in the rAga.
As for recordings that coolkarni has posted, majority are of brOvavamma, a couple of varugalAmO. davalangi has posted 2 of MD played by KS. I too have posted brOvavamma by musiri and we of course heard rAmacandrENa by MSS. It is unforunate that renditions of other songs are not available for us to savour and utilize for furthering our understanding of the rAga.
hamvIruSca balAvalu dhanAsri malArukAh |
kakubhO mAnjI pUrvI cEtyEtE dESIyarAgakAh ||
Heres R.K.SrIkaThan-avhA`s opinion on mAnji. (thanks to my mother and guru who spoke to him on the phone)
Same scale as bhairavi. N,G sharper/higher than in bhairavi. In some phrases, when elongated shaken, gAndhAra lies between G2 and G3;-as when saying DPMG~~. G3 has not been used by MD or SS but Tamizh composer has used. jaNTi swaras are to be avoided in this raga. However GGRS, NNDP can be used in the rAga.
As for recordings that coolkarni has posted, majority are of brOvavamma, a couple of varugalAmO. davalangi has posted 2 of MD played by KS. I too have posted brOvavamma by musiri and we of course heard rAmacandrENa by MSS. It is unforunate that renditions of other songs are not available for us to savour and utilize for furthering our understanding of the rAga.
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I have also noticed that in most renditions, the rAga does not extend beyond mandra N. MLV takes it upto D2. Although the tAra sthAyi prayOgas are somewhat more frequent in comparison, they are still few and tAra R with some G seems to be the norm. This is clearly seen in MD kRtis in SSP and in brOvavamma as well. These could be some ways of differentiating from Bhairavi both when listening and when singing/playing. Of course we all know that bhairavi is full-fledged tristhAyi rAga.
One notable thing about mAnji is that it has significant similarities with husEni in some phrases or in the way the swaras are handled. But husEni is distinctly recognizable perhaps due to better familiarity with it as compared to mAnji.
Sharp R and M is one of them. "R_R_R_" is similar in both.
The Phrase "S*NS*PDPM", "NSPDM" is used in both (Note kOdaNDarAmENa & ramaNaswarUpENa in rAmacandrENa). But it is the tempo that makes a difference in how it sounds. husEni sparkles well in madhyamakAla but mAnji will wither in this kAla. Of course we do have viLamba kRtis in husEni (MD`s SrIkALahastISa) . The phrase "PMPGMGMRGS" (and its variations) is also very reminiscent of husEni. So also is "PPS*_S*".
One notable thing about mAnji is that it has significant similarities with husEni in some phrases or in the way the swaras are handled. But husEni is distinctly recognizable perhaps due to better familiarity with it as compared to mAnji.
Sharp R and M is one of them. "R_R_R_" is similar in both.
The Phrase "S*NS*PDPM", "NSPDM" is used in both (Note kOdaNDarAmENa & ramaNaswarUpENa in rAmacandrENa). But it is the tempo that makes a difference in how it sounds. husEni sparkles well in madhyamakAla but mAnji will wither in this kAla. Of course we do have viLamba kRtis in husEni (MD`s SrIkALahastISa) . The phrase "PMPGMGMRGS" (and its variations) is also very reminiscent of husEni. So also is "PPS*_S*".
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drshrikkanth,
To me (and this is from a naiive perspective) husEni and mAnji seem to differ in the emotions they evoke and that plays a significant part in my ability to tell them part. mAnji seems to have more pathos/melonchaly (i.e. more like bhairavi) - it could also be due in part to D1's role? To me husEni is closer to Anandabhairavi, and mAnji to bhairavi.
BTW, another slow krithi in husEni is ADum varai avar ADattum by OVK. The sarcasm+sringaram combined comes out well with husEni (which as you may know is not uncommon in dance circles w.r.t padams)
Arun
To me (and this is from a naiive perspective) husEni and mAnji seem to differ in the emotions they evoke and that plays a significant part in my ability to tell them part. mAnji seems to have more pathos/melonchaly (i.e. more like bhairavi) - it could also be due in part to D1's role? To me husEni is closer to Anandabhairavi, and mAnji to bhairavi.
BTW, another slow krithi in husEni is ADum varai avar ADattum by OVK. The sarcasm+sringaram combined comes out well with husEni (which as you may know is not uncommon in dance circles w.r.t padams)
Arun
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arunk.
what you say is true. What Im saying is that husEni is more familiar to us and hence we are able to say what rasa evokes etc. These things become clearer only on repeated listening and experimenting not when one sees a scale or sancAra in a book.mAnji is a relatively unfamiliar and unexplored rAga. And yes husEni can sound like Anandabhairavi in places but it is distinctly bhairaviyish significantly. You will understand what iImean if you listen to "SrI kALahastISa".Also note husEni has no G3.
what you say is true. What Im saying is that husEni is more familiar to us and hence we are able to say what rasa evokes etc. These things become clearer only on repeated listening and experimenting not when one sees a scale or sancAra in a book.mAnji is a relatively unfamiliar and unexplored rAga. And yes husEni can sound like Anandabhairavi in places but it is distinctly bhairaviyish significantly. You will understand what iImean if you listen to "SrI kALahastISa".Also note husEni has no G3.
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dr.shrikkanth,
I agree. On further contemplation, I take what I said back. Huseni does sound like A'bhairavi at places but i dont think its necessarily that close to it as I implied. And yes it is indeed like bhairavi in many places too.
The point I was trying to make it is that the "mood" of huseni seems different from mAnji/bhairavi and maybe i was seeing the mood a bit like that of A'bhairavi ("lighter" if you will) - but probably got carried away!
Perhaps we need a huseni thread with clips (:-).
Arun
I agree. On further contemplation, I take what I said back. Huseni does sound like A'bhairavi at places but i dont think its necessarily that close to it as I implied. And yes it is indeed like bhairavi in many places too.
The point I was trying to make it is that the "mood" of huseni seems different from mAnji/bhairavi and maybe i was seeing the mood a bit like that of A'bhairavi ("lighter" if you will) - but probably got carried away!
Perhaps we need a huseni thread with clips (:-).
Arun
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An interesting thread on "rAmacandrEna samrakShitoham" and mAnji is on at:
http://carnatica.net/cgi-bin/rasikaforu ... opicid=329
http://carnatica.net/cgi-bin/rasikaforu ... opicid=329
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Bhairavi and Manji
I have searched everywhere for good renditions of both ragas, and there is no dearth of that. I have heard Ramachandrena and Brovavamma. But I can't seem to find any significant differences, except perhaps the antara gandhara used at the end of Varugalamo by TMK. Could someone please tell me what these two ragas do NOT have in common?
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Re: Bhairavi and Manji
Shreyas
We discussed this a lot refer the manji thread .
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=97
Mods
Merge this duplicate thread please into manji
We discussed this a lot refer the manji thread .
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=97
Mods
Merge this duplicate thread please into manji
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Re: mAnji
And if anyone is wondering why I say chEtulAra SringAramu is in mAnji and not bhairavi, here's a detailed explanation.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32510&start=25#p347959
Semmangudi mama's version is all naTabhairavi - he did not sing it in bhairavi.
The "bhairavi" version blindly replaced all the ascending D1s with D2s (even where we should use D1 in bhairavi!). But if you look closely, it doesn't use any of the trademark bhairavi phrases and treats some notes differently as well. Lots of unusual plain notes.
The sangatis are also too linear. This unusual treatment is what we expect for a sampUrna rAga than a raga like bhairavi. Actual bhairavi kritis like upachAramulanu or koluvaiyunnADe or EnATi nOmu phalamo are quite different in their phrasing.
In fact I'd go on to say that the "bhairavi" version of chEtulAra is not even bhairavi at all, it's mAnji through and through!! That RNS,-R alone would have told me. This is one of the best examples to show the difference between mAnji and bhairavi.
That itself ought to tell you that this son is actually supposed to be in naTabhairavi and is now sung in mAnji
Instead do listen to upachAramulanu and EnATi nOmu phalamO & hear it for yourself :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaT93J75SSc - upachAramulanu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNw6VRldLmk - EnATi nOmu.
This is bhairavi.
And THIS is mAnji :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSsoTu98gTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E68_4nDScC8
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32510&start=25#p347959
Semmangudi mama's version is all naTabhairavi - he did not sing it in bhairavi.
The "bhairavi" version blindly replaced all the ascending D1s with D2s (even where we should use D1 in bhairavi!). But if you look closely, it doesn't use any of the trademark bhairavi phrases and treats some notes differently as well. Lots of unusual plain notes.
The sangatis are also too linear. This unusual treatment is what we expect for a sampUrna rAga than a raga like bhairavi. Actual bhairavi kritis like upachAramulanu or koluvaiyunnADe or EnATi nOmu phalamo are quite different in their phrasing.
In fact I'd go on to say that the "bhairavi" version of chEtulAra is not even bhairavi at all, it's mAnji through and through!! That RNS,-R alone would have told me. This is one of the best examples to show the difference between mAnji and bhairavi.
That itself ought to tell you that this son is actually supposed to be in naTabhairavi and is now sung in mAnji
Instead do listen to upachAramulanu and EnATi nOmu phalamO & hear it for yourself :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaT93J75SSc - upachAramulanu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNw6VRldLmk - EnATi nOmu.
This is bhairavi.
And THIS is mAnji :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSsoTu98gTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E68_4nDScC8
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Re: mAnji
Actually the sangatis of chEtulAra are a perfect fit for kharaharapriya if you replace every single D1 with D2, and this seems to have been a matter of dispute even as far back as 1910, before the Thyagaraja arAdhana existed. To my knowledge, the trinity never composed in naTabhairavi itself - there was nAri reetigauLa, but it was HMB and Papanasam Sivan who started using it.
So what we have with chEtulAra is a kharaharapriya canditate, that turned into naTabhairavi and is now sung in mAnji while everyone thinks the raga is bhairavi!! Confused enough?
And people wonder why musicologists are needed. This is why.
So what we have with chEtulAra is a kharaharapriya canditate, that turned into naTabhairavi and is now sung in mAnji while everyone thinks the raga is bhairavi!! Confused enough?
And people wonder why musicologists are needed. This is why.