SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

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SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

At last I am back after another long hiatus. Between huge mountains of work, study, navaratri, family and additional work related travel and training, not to mention an attack of gastroenteritis, I just about had enough spare time to exercise and eat. Naturally writing and research took a backseat for a while. So expect breaks now and then, but I'll always be back.

So this time I come with great news for rAgA enthusiasts - the Jnanarnava Trust's SSP archival project is finally going public, and has so far archived 59 out of the 229 compositions of Muthuswami Dikshitar as notated in the Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini. In a few cases, the current versions of some compositions have also been rendered for comparison.

http://jnanarnava.org/

Dr. R.S. Jeyalakshmi - Veena
T.M. Krishna - Voice
K. Arun Prakash - Mrdangam
R.K. Shriramkumar - Violin

Production Support: VGP Studios/Charsur Digital Workstation
Sound Engineer: Biju James/Suresh Gopalan

This fills up a few gaps in my old ragas catalogue where I could not find links to any recordings. And material for a few which I have yet to cover.

Do note, "The Lost Melodies" project of Dr. T R Aravindhan is going on strong too, and a few amazing compositions have come out. It is proving to be very interesting looking at these 2 sources.

Hopefully, many of the ragas that we've forgotten over time like gauri for e.g. will take a first step towards revival on today's stage.

rshankar
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by rshankar »

SrinathK wrote: 04 Nov 2019, 20:24 http://jnanarnava.org/

Dr. R.S. Jeyalakshmi - Veena
T.M. Krishna - Voice
K. Arun Prakash - Mrdangam
R.K. Shriramkumar - Violin

It possibly points to a shortcoming of mine, but I have to say that I find the recreation of the melodies (as notated in the SSP) to be very monotonous....rather like how I feel when listening to a series of Gregorian Chants or even a bunch of Madrigals. The excitement of listening to the newer version (of say Ehi annapURNE) is completely lacking.

I am very impressed by how the team stuck to their (boring?) task!! Once again, it is probably my shortcoming; and other, more knowledgeable folks may have their souls aflame with this series!! :)
Last edited by rshankar on 06 Nov 2019, 17:40, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by RSR »

@2
@rshankar
Great Sir. Some plain speaking.
How about the 250 plus songs of MD not found in SSP?
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... ritis-list

https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... any-ragams

SrinathK
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

Well it isn't meant to be a live concert - it is an archival project. Dikshitar also did not intend to sing for today's concerts. These songs are almost 175 years back in time while their more popular siblings have been enjoying the stage for so long now. While CM as an art form as such has moved on a lot (for better or worse) during that long period of time.

CM has not been kind to the trinity's compositions on the whole despite the fact that we all put them on the pedestals and portraits. I am saying this despite the fact that the trinity's compositions are occupying center stage today.

My opinion on this is that if musicians and rasikas aren't willing to give some support to these compositions / ragas and give them time to grow on stage, they will continue to suffer backhanded treatment. The popular numbers we hear today with lot of manodharma / tukkada have come to this point only because of relentless backing.

I personally felt each and every one of them has a stange "kATrinilE varum geetam" like sober flavour for some reason. I don't get that from TLM though.

Now about punnagavarali in particular, in kamalAmbikAyAh they have for some reason sung it in gAndhAra shruti, resulting in the swaras transposing to R2 G3 M1 P D2 N3 and S with M2 for R2, with S = G3. This makes it sound exactly like a baroque shankarabharanam!! Actually reading the book, I get it that punnAgavarALi is still pretty much the same even now, with more of R2.

Just to help your digestion, here is Sri Sukra bhagavantam by M S Amma - very faithful to the original text, but still, modern : https://youtu.be/tvomC1uSkkY (baroque paras by comparison really does sound like some Turkish Arabian melody at times)

And here's gauri, faithful but modern: https://youtu.be/KF2cfA9dFcw - magnificent raga, will get there shortly.

Only years or decades of singing these compositions and ragas on stage will allow them to fly freely like their more popular brethren.

This retrospective approach has a similar story for the compositions of Bach for e.g.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Srinath: Thanks.

The fact that these renditions sound very different was talked about by TMK and Shriramkumar when their renditions were originally released a few years back if I recall right. It is good to have such a version on record.

We should not assume that this is how CM was practiced at that time. This is just the best and consistent interpretation of the available gamaka symbols in SSP. Like in Chandram Baja, Asaveri.. the essential gamakas that make Asaveri today is totally absent and it sounds very bland. It is hard for me to believe the bland version is how was rendered then. it may be just the case that the gamaka notations are lossy versions of the practice then. We all know how hard it is to notate CM gamakas including anuswaras.

This leads to an issue with ragas that are not in vogue today. We should assume that the notations on SSP are not full fidelity wrt to gamakas. What can the artists tap into to restore the version? It is like an archeological restoration project after some damage to structures. Just like how they do it, may be use clues available in other ragas and their experience and artistic taste and aesthetically apply them to these ragas?

SrinathK
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

You're late to the party vk. Very late. I have made over 120 posts already and I have discarded that assumption.

Actually I had the same issue, but the more I study the SSP, while it is totally possible for other styles to exist, the Diskhitar bani was very particular about the gAmakas and raga lakshanans and where to use them and how much. Plus their style was optimized for the veena at that time and the vocal mikeless days (even those old gramaphone recordings sound very raw compared to today). There is totally a method behind it all.

It will sound different on the nagaswaram of course because of the flowing nature of those phrases.

Thyagaraja's style was quite different from Dikshitar. Quite a bit more so than today. His phrases naturally flow across the notes, so gamakas come intuitively. In Dikshitar's school, gamakas are carefully prepared.

CM at that time was not about singing kritis. All these are trends that are far more recent. What we call as gamakas today are the result of a Cambrian Explosion in the 20th century.

You took AsAvEri of all rAgAs and to be honest that has become something totally different now than what it used to be. Should have started with lighter to digest stuff like veenAbhEri or hindOla vasantam or sundaramurthim (Takka).

As a digestive aid, I recommend you listen to Thayagraja's old versions on TLM channel

RSR
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by RSR »

Is it possible to reconstruct the music from notations? NO.
Is it possible to get at the original lyrics in telugu/kannada/sanskrit from English transliteration? NO. Can a future-day computer create music comparable to that rendered by HM greats and CM greats of composers/ tuners/ singers? NO.
Which came first?- Grammar or Literature? Undoubtedly, Literature.
Which came first? Intuitive perception or the deductive method by experimentation and confirmation?- Intuitive perception. Deduction can give us Engineering and Technology but only inspired Induction gives us Science. (' Mysticism and Logic')
---------------------------
There have always been thousands of scholars in Grammar but so few poets. Likewise, hundreds of composers, but so few like the Trinity. Can we really 'notate' the swaram-laden music of Madurai Mani Iyer, the 'bruga ' of GNB, the stately rendering of DKP, the rapturous flights of Smt.MS and Smt.NCV, ? NO.
There is no 'school'. There are only their kritis. The famed composers never left any notations for their creations. Nor did Purandaradasa. It is the Oral tradition that is the only criteria. Classical music, be it CM or HM, is not learned from books and notations but by being taught by a Guru. ( either directly or like Ekalavya /GNB , indirectly by listening. ) because it is almost impossible to express it in written form. The Bard of Avon had no schooling in Greek and Latin. ... The HM tradition , was entirely built on the concept of Garana. ( something like Upanishad- at the feet of the Guru for decades of learning ).
If the music of SSP days, was not about kriti singing, how is it that those of SSP writer's exact contemporaries like Patnam Subramanya Iyer are touched upon? Hardly a mention about Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan who excelled in 'true music' of Raga Allaapani? or about the no-less exceptional brother Ramaswami Sivan's compositions in Tamil- written about by such great writers like U.V.Swaminatha Iyer? and venerated by Meenakshi Sundaram Pillai? ( can raga aalaapanai be notated? a definite NO). Can dictionaries and grammar books turn any one into a good poet/ prose writer ? NO. Can we become a stylist ourselves, by studying various famous styles? No.
Creation and Individuality are inspired and God-given. SSP is just a near- modern attempt (1900) to imitate the notation method of the Western notions of their Classical music. If I am not mistaken, the early musicologists,( Venkatamakin) of CM just codified the system to the extent possible. basing themselves on the existing ragas of their times. as a rough guide for creative minds to build upon that. Ragas existed before bringing them under any scales. Each raga has its unique feature. I was captivated as a mere school boy some seventy years back by record of DKP's ' maanasa guru guha' in Ananda Bairavi. Never knew who rendered it, what raga it was, who wrote it, its meaning, the philosophical significance, its 'historical' incidence and ' mystical; story behind it. Hardly necessary to appreciate the raga , and rendering. Can the song be rendered by anyone just by imitating? Can anyone become the Bard by reading and understanding every line of his works? Even Shelley despairs about it. Let us not be carried away by SSP . It is an attempt and a reference. Just that and nothing more. Nothing less.

SrinathK
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

You sir clearly weren't present at the guruguhamrita program yesterday at Raga Sudha. If there was ever any proof needed as to the ability of Dikshitar's compositions and the old ragas as per the SSP to hold their own on today's stage, in today's performance format, ok with more gamakas than before, given full manodharma treatment, but also preserving the originals and send the rasikas into ecstasy with the kind of bhava that only Dikshitar can generate, with some excellent concerts and lec dems, I have seen it yesterday.

I had felt that it might take over a decade or more for musicians to bring them up to where CM is now, but it is happening much faster than I thought.

Notations have their limits yes, and in CM it is much easier to grasp by ear than by note. Nevertheless we are all indebted to Subbarama Dikshitar for single handedly saving an entire tradition and parampara. Otherwise without lakshana musicians would have had no regulation in changing anything to suit their fancy. Now the intellectual dimension may not be important to some, that's fine with me - after all what is music if it doesn't move you? But it sounds like indirectly criticizing the efforts of those who are willing to explore our lost wealth.

The music of the Dikshitar parampara is now mainstream. And in any case, I will not stop covering their ragas and compositions, because only now I am beginning to truly be mersmerized by the greatness of the Dikshitar parampara.

The next raga I am going to cover btw is gaula. If bhava is what you want, Thyagaraja has poured his heart out in duDukugala.

RSR
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by RSR »

Smt.NCVasanthakokilam's rendering of three MD krits, (1) Maaye in TarangiNi (2) Saarasa dhala in kamaaj and (3) viNayakaa -vegavahini
-- do not seem to follow the pattern of a typical MD creation ,mentioned by MD school exponents. These are truly outstanding renderings. Where did she learn to sing them so sweetly? from SSP notations? Not likely. Who her Guru was ,is not known for certainty. ( he is said to have been a harikatha accaompanist ). A definite indication of the merit of oral tradition,

shankarank
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by shankarank »

Indu Cakra - Part 1

Renditions of mELas with SrI dIkshitar's compositions by TMK and Smt. R.S Jayalakshmi on vINA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1NTu8fyyM

shankarank
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by shankarank »

SrI dIkshitar is a dIkshitar after all, who were custodians of SAstras, structure, grammar and Samskrta a structured language. Such a structural approach spills over to his kritis and rAgA as well.

Here I am not connoting a dIkshitar to being a Sanskritist - a categorization now a days! But pointing out their important, larger role in our tradition which finds it's imprint in SangIta parampara as well, which by itself is a Sastraic tradition as much as it is a lived tradition. Samskrta happens to be the structured system in bhAratam.

I hope I convince people to view them in universal viewpoints, than boxing them into categories and parochial viewpoints.

As regards why this is not mainstream, well, people fell out of favor with the vINa instrument even in the citadels of music. When SVK spoke in 2002 after the concert of Smt. Kalpagam svaminathan, he made a statement on how she was unsure if her concert would be welcome. There was a decent audience in that morning concert in RAga sudha hall. I remember she played AndhALi kriti , Parimala Ranganatham and SrI SubramanyAya namaste as main.

Later when bunch of us posted comments in Sangeetham.com, one of her students - IIRC, one Mr. Ramakrishnan (handle:vainika?) , even posted a feedback that she was astonished that a review of her concert was out, so soon!


P.S : I am not some close follower of hers, but went there based on education ( from the likes of Srini Piccumani) I received in forums. I only remember Citti Babu visiting Madurai once for a vINa recital in our tyAgaraja utsavam. Over in the U.S , orgs. that I have been part of have hosted Sri D. Balakrishna son of Mysore Duraisvami Iyengar and Smt. Geetha Bennet. The latter gave a workshop in the Ohio State university as well.

Ranganayaki
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 28 Nov 2020, 22:50 Indu Cakra - Part 1

Renditions of mELas with SrI dIkshitar's compositions by TMK and Smt. R.S Jayalakshmi on vINA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1NTu8fyyM
More chakras coming out, certainly? Is there a schedule that anyone is aware of?

SrinathK
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

So far if you look up that link I shared, I think over 50 compositions are out.

Maybe it's time for yours truly to get on with the act as well. :mrgreen:

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ranganayaki »

That link in post 1 brings up an ad on my iPad and phone that I cannot dismiss - There’s no way to ! I don’t use a computer any more, not sure if the problem would not exist on one.

Nick H
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Nick H »

It is an ad for the domain registrars, because the domain is not available.
jnanarnava.org
is parked free, courtesy of GoDaddy.
Get This Domain
Whoops... someone didn't pay their domain renewal. Best pay fast. Hope your content is safe

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

Oh no! Must I conclude the effort has been abandoned then?

Why go that route then? In these times of YT, they could very well open a channel and post it up there. If it was not for @shreyas and his YT channel, we would have lost it all.

Now you realize how hard this effort is?

RSR
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by RSR »

Sometimes, youtube videos get to be removed, for some reason or other. Much better option would be to upload to google-drive and share the links in a blog site. preferably with on-line hyml audio player.
( as done in guruvaayoorkshethram.blogspot.com
)

https://guruvaayoorkshethram.blogspot.com/

Ranganayaki
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ranganayaki »

So are these videos available anywhere else?

Thanks..

SrinathK
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by SrinathK »

Only Carnatic Corner. I do not know if Jnanarnava has a YT channel.

Ranganayaki
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ranganayaki »

Carnatic Corner has just this one video on the Indu Chakra.

CRama
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by CRama »

Jnanarnava Part i has been restored.
Jnanarnava Part II also uploaded.

Ranganayaki
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ranganayaki »

Yes, I saw it in my youtube feed yesterday !🙂👍🏻

shreyas
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by shreyas »

I will be uploading Part III too, very soon. Exams are taking up a lot of my time!

Ranganayaki
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ranganayaki »

So it’s you! Thanks!!🙂👍🏻🙏🏻


Ananthakrishna
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Ananthakrishna »

Looking forward to listening to it!!
And perhaps a discussion on the same on this forum after the premiere!

Surya
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Re: SSP Archival Project - The Jnanarnava Trust

Post by Surya »

This video has become private

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