ghanTa

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 11 Sep 2006, 09:07

My teacher would say that the raga is aptly named ghanta because it is like a large bell that slowly swings from one raga to another -- from bhairavi to dhanyasi to asaveri. When one is attempting alapana in this raga one should be mindful of the bell and not swing too much in any one direction but swing back gently in one of the other directions from any extreme. I found this picture quite useful in my own practice.

-thenpaanan

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 11 Sep 2006, 10:58

i remember Smt Geetha Bennett mentioning at a lec-dem interaction session that there is a Papanasam Sivan kriti 'Ghanta mani pole' which her father Sri S Ramanathan used to sing.

any recordings of this piece?

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 11 Sep 2006, 16:09

I did not find any such song by Papanasham Shivan. But there is a song by GKB with similar starting words.

ghaNTAmaNI ADudu. rAgA: kAnaDA. cApu tALA.

P: ghaNTAmaNI ADudu kaNDu piNi vADudu
C1: mukti maNI tEDudu nADudu kUDudu
2: paravashamAgudu pAvangaL pOghudu
3: janana maraNAdigaL mOhamum tIrndadu

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Sep 2006, 21:52

ramakriya, others

After a couple of more listens, i agree with ramakriya - i see shades of dhanyAsi in all those places in the navAvaraNam. I was actually sensing them yesterday in places, and some of those coincide with ones mentioned. I still dont think ghaNTa is very close to dhanyAsi, but atleast now I am able to see the connection!

Here are my thoughts on what the bits and pieces of the lakshana I can sense. Please do correct me if i am wrong - it is quite possible i am grossly approximating or missing the boat on the specifics here. I also realize i am being daring here and venturing into areas i should stay off (;-). But my curiousity is getting the better of me, and i view this as a learning process for me.

* I (now) see shades of dhanyAsi very palpable if D1 is prolonged when going down from N2 towards P. I remember from a Dr.S. Ramanathan's demo that this was characteristic of dhanyasi. In that lec-dem he shows how going from ni to pa differs between dhanyAsi, Ahiri and tODi. In any case, I see this type of usage in the navAvaraNam and also in the kshetrajna padam (pallavi itself). But I couldnt sense this usage in the others - e.g. the 2 nauka caritramu pieces.

* The sm(g)rs (??) type of usage in unna tAvuna at the tail-end of first line of each stanza seems to give a dhanyAsi feel. (IMO, the tyAgarAja pieces give a punnAgavarALi touch the most - even the aSaveri touch is more feeble).

* The prolonged d1 in the pallavi part of navAvaraNam (lAM in kamalAm) is unlike the one mentioned above, and it seems very unique (i.e. not shared with other ragas?). But I am not sure if it occurs elsewehere (?) - is this part of a characteristic prayoga?

* Also the padam has a a prolonged, but slight (as in not deep) kampita on g2 (mara pa~~~~ ya ) which also seems unique to me, but again i am not sure if others have it and I wonder if it is part of a characteristic prayoga.

* It seems that both d1 and r1 are usually elongated when going down to pa and sa respectively. That seems characteristic of ghaNTa.

Can people more knowledgable please expand on this if possible?

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:01

While those of you who know the theory of music discuss the raga, as a mere rasika I would like to add this: I like the way thenpaanan's teacher explained ghanta to him. I wish all teachers were that descriptive. This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think. It is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by mere touch and saying it is like this or that). I wonder if at some point someone heard the bells in a temple and sang with it and it became ghanta (that's why the swaying notes). Or, they felt that something had to be chanted along with the bell sounds...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:03

arasi
idEnu rakti rAgada mElE virakti bandu biTTitE?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:06

ghaNTegaLA dhani iruvAga ghaNta rAgavU, jAgaTegaLu saha bEkE??

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:15

danige dani samarasavAgi samanjasavAgi sEridAgallave rAga. adaralliyu rakti rAgavantu hELalE bEkilla. A rAgada sogasu nimaginnu tiLidilla aShTe. tiLidare biDalAriri

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:28

arasa arasiyarigU ommomme virakti baruvuduMTu

hADuttA hADuttA (kELuttA kELuttA) virakti mArpaTTItu

-Ramakriya

p.s. Does the name pANini ring a bell?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:35

DRS,
My rasanA has to go a long way, I realize. Wish I had learnt the rAgA from a gnAnasthA.
Ramakriya,
We are still within ghanta dhwani it seems(you ask whether pANini rings a a bell). You lost me there. I was thinking of the Somanathapura temple...

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:36

Lji, it is the GKB song i mentioned it wrongly as a PS composition.

Today i could listen to a ghaNTa piece and i could practically appreciate the swinging between bhairavi and dhanyAsi and asAvEri.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:37

Sure, I got the somanAtha pura.

Just ignore pANini. A case of mistaken identity.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:38

Now you two lost me on the way to sOmanAthapura

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:43

bAgiloLu kai mugidu oLAge bA yAtrikanE!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:44

This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think.

Perhaps. But we have nothing else (yet) to go on

. Drawing comparisons to allied ragas, that is pretty common. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact it is very important with closely allied rakthi ragas such as here to be able to tread carefully within their realms (which are allowed to overlap).

Although one could argue that viewing ghaNTa as pendulum across 3 ragas, can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy i.e. it will never be more than that!

btw, i didnt get all the recent talk, except drs's "A rAgada sogasu nimaginnu tiLidilla aShTe. tiLidare biDalAriri"

;)

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:53

arunk wrote:btw, i didnt get all the recent talk, except drs's

Arun

We were all refering to a very well known poem of Kuvempu, about the Somanathapura temple which begins as .

bAgiloLu kaimugidu oLage bA yAtrikane
shileyallavI guDiyu, kaleya baleyu

( Oh traveller, come in with folded hands,
for this temple is not stone, but w web of art)

One of the charanas in the goes on as

ghaMTegaLillilla jAgaTegaLillilla karpUradAratiya jyOtiyilla

(There are no bells nor are there jAgATes and there is no light from the Arati)

because Somanathapura, is not a functioning temple, because vandals took away the mUla mUrti.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:55

arun

God, arasi , good quote from kuvempu. It took me a while to figure it out.

bAgiloLu kai mugidu oLage bA yAtrikane |
SileyallavI guDiyu kaleya baleyu |---

gaNTegaLa daniyilla jAgaTegaLililla |
karpUradAratiya jyOtiyilla |
bhagavanta tAnemba rUpagoNDihudilli |
rasikateya kaDalukki harivudilli ||

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Sep 2006, 00:56

LOL. We hit the button at the same time ramakriya.

Arun, good analysis of the rAga. To a degree comparing with the allied rAgas is good. But you are right, one should not run away with swinging between rAgas. Looks like it is going that way with ghaNTa.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2006, 01:01

ramakriya, drs - Wow! Thanks!

arasi that is impressively devious

!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 01:02

Arunk,
I agree with you that we should pay a lot of attention to allied ragas so that we do not meander into the realm of other related ragas. This to me is a different issue--not like simhendra madhyama and shanmukhapriya. To me, ghanta is a minor raga and it has to deal with the identity of asAveri, bhairavi, Ahiri and dhanyAsi (are there more?) and it puts a crimp in it...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 01:06

bhagavantanAnada rUpa, I think...
Before someone thinks we belong in the language section and that somanathapura is not in the puNya sthaLAs booklet, it is wise to disperse:)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2006, 01:16

arasi,

You may have a point, but IMO the relative importance of the ragas shouldnt matter. For example, a tODI even being so huge cannot and must not go into the realm of the relatively much much minor Ahiri (or punnAgavaRALi or asAveri). Similarly a bhairavi should stay away from mukhAri and vice-versa. They do overlap and similarities are unavoidable, but how you tread within those overlapping regions is also quite important. They are not "freely interchangeable" there either. This is IMO what makes rakthi ragas very special and I guess challenging for the learner and performer.

But in raga evolution one cannot be surprised if big fish eat up smaller fish just like in nature. Besides here we dont yet know which territory is clearly ghaNTa's alone. It is quite possible that we are now dealing with remnants of the raga and most (but not all) of the remnants seem to be found in other ragas. Many parts that were more ghaNTA like could have been lost over time.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2006, 01:22

> They are not "freely interchangeable" there either.
Would be better as:

They are not always "freely interchangeable" there (as in the overlapping parts) either.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Sep 2006, 01:26

Point taken about 'which came first' and 'the survival of the fittest'. True, just as in the case of unheard mELa kartA rAgas--as we get familiar with them, we do enjoy them...

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 12 Sep 2006, 02:13

until the explanations came, I was facing Kannada bouncers!!!!

What is interesting is that we are familiar with the phrases being parts of other ragas, as a result, we associate it with moving between ragas. Could it not be that the asaveri, punnagavarali, dhanyasi etc could have been derived from Ghanta, for the purpose of fitting into the mathematical framework (melakarta system) of our minds? Listening to the songs, one cannot but help notice that it evokes a mixture of emotions, none dominating... What is even more interesting is that these emotions are those of heavy-weight ragas...

Another question I have is that Ghanta does not have any scales as such; could that be because it never fit into the melakarta scheme? And given that there is effort to classify every raga into the melakarta, it would make sense that it is slowly being sidelined because it does not essentially fit in...

They do overlap and similarities are unavoidable, but how you tread within those overlapping regions is also quite important.

Arun, can you elaborate on what you see are the overlapping rules in this case?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2006, 02:42

Could it not be that the asaveri, punnagavarali, dhanyasi etc could have been derived from Ghanta, for the purpose of fitting into the mathematical framework (melakarta system) of our minds

No that is a wild jump in logic to reach a favorable conclusion

Things just dont work that way (fitting into mela system etc.). Besides all these other ragas are pretty old too.

I have is that Ghanta does not have any scales as such; could that be because it never fit into the melakarta scheme? And given that there is effort to classify every raga into the melakarta, it would make sense that it is slowly being sidelined because it does not essentially fit in...

Ahiri and probably also asAveri fall into this category also. As I mentioned before this is no reason for loss in prominence. Things like this just happen - somehow at some point in time, the stars were aligned such that probably ghaNTA slowly lost out in a popularity contest to these others (and may be other ragas). Same with nArAyaNagowLa.

mELa system is a loose theoretical framework applied on top of existing practice (which was already highly refined). Note also that the framework itself changed and evolved other the centuries. It seemed always as just a way of grouping ragas or musical entities - something that was always done (right from bharatA). But IMO, the framework itself never was that strong an influence on practice (except perhaps much much later as in recent times).

> They do overlap and similarities are unavoidable, but how you tread within those overlapping regions is also ?
> quite important.
Arun, can you elaborate on what you see are the overlapping rules in this case?

There are no "fixed" rules - the rules are specific to the ragas in play themselves. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can enlighten better, but this was just my way of saying how very similar ragas, with very similar (or identical) phrases, can (and should) sound melodically different particularly in those phrases. The difference lies in how the swaras are navigated, and rendered i.e.. as-in the gamakas; and also other rules like which swaras can be elongated, rested upon (nyAsa) in which raga etc.

So a same phrase that from s' to p viai n2 and d1, can vary between tODi, Ahiri and dhanyasi (again, i am using the the example dr.S.Ramanathan uses). In Ahiri "ni" is the key, and it is rendered in a way very unique to Ahiri; in dhanyAsi "da" must be emphasized on the way down. Now for tODi if you emphasize da on the way down, you run into the danger of sounding like dhanyAsi - wrong even if tODi is the big, bad boy

Similar things also apply to most popular dEvagAndAri/Arabhi and nAyaki/darbAr combo (i am not that knowledgeable to give you specific examples here).

Different, subtle gamakas that establish melodic individuality are the hallmark of these rakthi ragas. They probably were refined over time and are in place to set a specific mood or rasa. It is quite clear to me that ghaNTA most definitely falls into this category, but seems to have lost clarity mainly due to loss in individuality.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Sep 2006, 02:57

ninja,

i see now you were asking about rules *in this case*. which i missed and started with a more basic explanation. Sorry!

Also rules about this case, i am sorry again - i really dont know as I am not that qualified. So far all i could come up with are possible clues to rules. I mentioned them in an earlier post: some special usage of d1 and r1. Also the usage of d2 (in tandem with n2) seems close but somehow different from bhairavi (unlike the g2r2g2m1 which seems pretty much like bhairavi). Obviously this is a very sketchy and incomplete picture.

Arun

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 12 Sep 2006, 03:27

arunk wrote:ninja,

i see now you were asking about rules *in this case*. which i missed and started with a more basic explanation. Sorry!

Also rules about this case, i am sorry again - i really dont know as I am not that qualified. So far all i could come up with are possible clues to rules. I mentioned them in an earlier post: some special usage of d1 and r1. Also the usage of d2 (in tandem with n2) seems close but somehow different from bhairavi (unlike the g2r2g2m1 which seems pretty much like bhairavi). Obviously this is a very sketchy and incomplete picture.

Arun

Oh, the basic explanation is useful too, believe me!!! I am an utter novice!!! Thanks a lot for all the details!!

Ninja

CSS · Post by **CSS** » 12 Sep 2006, 07:26

arasi wrote:While those of you who know the theory of music discuss the raga, as a mere rasika I would like to add this: I like the way thenpaanan's teacher explained ghanta to him. I wish all teachers were that descriptive. This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think. It is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by mere touch and saying it is like this or that). I wonder if at some point someone heard the bells in a temple and sang with it and it became ghanta (that's why the swaying notes). Or, they felt that something had to be chanted along with the bell sounds...

Well taken point. Too much analysis of a creative thing like music robs it of it's beauty. Infact, I have felt that some brilliant musicians went downhill in their mid career because their analytical faculties took over their manodharmic abilties.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 12 Sep 2006, 10:45

After this thread started, I was quite intrigued by the fact that Dikshitar composed kamalamba navavarnas in Ghanta, Punnagavarali and Ahiri. On listening to DKJ's versions of each of these compositions in tandem, I'm remain amazed at Dikshitar's conceptualization and portrayal of each of these ragas. A similar exercise with Tyagaraja's compositions might perhaps facilitate raga swaroopa comparisons. Your thoughts on this.......

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Sep 2006, 11:29

knandago2001 wrote:After this thread started, I was quite intrigued by the fact that Dikshitar composed kamalamba navavarnas in Ghanta, Punnagavarali and Ahiri. On listening to DKJ's versions of each of these compositions in tandem, I'm remain amazed at Dikshitar's conceptualization and portrayal of each of these ragas. A similar exercise with Tyagaraja's compositions might perhaps facilitate raga swaroopa comparisons. Your thoughts on this.......

While Dikshita's kritis in Ahiri, Ghanta and punnAgavarALi are real heavy weights, Tyagaraja has chosen to compose simple EkadhAtu/dvidhAtu type of kritis in these rAgas. That is a striking dissimilarity.

-Ramakriya

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 12 Sep 2006, 12:28

I was referring only to the raga swaroopa as exemplified in the various compositions. Tyagaraja has certainly given us more compositions in each of the ragas for the sake of detailed comparison. For example aadaya sri and challare in ahiri, the ghanta compositions previously posted by drshreekanth, gandhamu puyyaruga and E nomu in punnagavarali. I feel that each kriti reveals different prayogas of the same raga. One striking feature that I noted was that ahiri, unlike punnagavarali or ghanta, is not sung in madhyama sruti which suggests differences in terms of raga sanchara. Punnagavarali rarely admits the usage of chatursruti rishaba (R2); R2 figures more prominently in ghanta.

Nandagopal

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 12 Sep 2006, 13:22

I got this interesting post from this link , I think it is posted by chitraveena ravikiran.
http://lite.mayyam.com/indcmusic/11992.10.35.47.html.---> Prof TRS rocks with his sense of humour!!

From: Ravi Kiran (@ 210.214.123.122) on: Wed May 31 15:37:15 EDT 2000

there is an interesting anecdote regarding the raga ghanta. this was told by TRS in a lec-dem.

trs and ramnad krishnan once went to a lec in music academy where smt muktha was demonstrating this raga. they could not recognize this raga but later were told it was ghanta. they felt that it was a raga that needed to be mastered, so they returned to their respectice home towns and decided to get a hang of this ghanta raga.

After 6 months, when trs and rk met at a function, trs told rk that he was unable to do anything with ghanta - for which rk said:"ghantale onnume illeyA, dhanyaasiya thappaa padinaa adhudhaan ghantaa"

to which trs replied:"appudiya? appo, naan ippovarekum dhanyaasienu nenechu padinadhu ghantaadhaano??"

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Sep 2006, 21:54

rajeshnat wrote:I got this interesting post from this link , I think it is posted by chitraveena ravikiran.
http://lite.mayyam.com/indcmusic/11992.10.35.47.html.---> Prof TRS rocks with his sense of humour!!

I beleive this post is from G Ravikiran, a flautist from Bangalore.

-Ramakriya

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 13 Sep 2006, 08:55

Ramakriya: Isn't G. Ravikiran a vocalist? IIRC he used to learn from Srikantan Sir and is now under the tutelage of Sri TMK. He sang here in Mumbai recently, a nice recital anchored by a weighty Anandabhairavi followed by daNDAyudhapANim.

www.gravikiran.com

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 13 Sep 2006, 09:41

hmm.. There are two flautists G Ravikiran and G Mohan Rangan from Bangalore who have given duet concerts too ..

I am not sure if these to Ravi Kiran's are the same or different.

I know that Ravikiram who used to post on Forumhub was from Bangalore . Now I do not know if it is the flautist or the vocalist !

I wonder of G Ravikiran is also on this forum

If so he could clear us!

-Ramakriya

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 13 Sep 2006, 09:46

ramakriya wrote:hmm.. There are two flautists G Ravikiran and G Mohan Rangan from Bangalore who have given duet concerts too .

-Ramakriya

Ah OK Ramakriya. Wasn't aware of that.

ramakriya wrote:I wonder of G Ravikiran is also on this forum If so he could clear us!

Come out, come out, wherever you are

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 13 Sep 2006, 19:10

arasi wrote:While those of you who know the theory of music discuss the raga, as a mere rasika I would like to add this: I like the way thenpaanan's teacher explained ghanta to him. I wish all teachers were that descriptive. This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think. It is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by mere touch and saying it is like this or that). I wonder if at some point someone heard the bells in a temple and sang with it and it became ghanta (that's why the swaying notes). Or, they felt that something had to be chanted along with the bell sounds...

reminds me of "AlaigaL maNiyin Osaiyai nAn kaeTTEn"

:):)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Sep 2006, 20:21

alai alaiyAyp pAyum Alaya maNi, perhaps. The old film song goes like this: Alaya maNiyin Osayai nAn kETTEn, arul mozhi kURum paRavaigaL oli kETTEn...

gravikiran · Post by **gravikiran** » 14 Sep 2006, 08:50

hi,
that post from forumhub was from me during the good old days when forumhub was active

my name is G Ravi Kiran and as prashant said i am under the tutelage of both Sri RK Srikantan and Sri TM Krishna. (prashant, i guess it was a typo when you said "not under the tutelage"

)
there is another G Ravi Kiran who is a flautist and also from Bangalore.
thanks,
ravi kiran.
www.gravikiran.com

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 14 Sep 2006, 09:43

Sorry Ravi Kiran: that was very much a typo. I have fixed it!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 14 Sep 2006, 09:59

gravikiran wrote:hi,
that post from forumhub was from me during the good old days when forumhub was active
my name is G Ravi Kiran and as prashant said i am under the tutelage of both Sri RK Srikantan and Sri TM Krishna. (prashant, i guess it was a typo when you said "not under the tutelage" )
there is another G Ravi Kiran who is a flautist and also from Bangalore.
thanks,
ravi kiran.
www.gravikiran.com

Welcome to the forum Ravikiran!

-Ramakriya

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Sep 2006, 14:45

gravikiran
Thank god I posted that url and put your name. I now looked at your website where there is a photograph of you and Archana (your wife), that quick look reminds of me another kiran sashikiran in first glance.

Please be proactive in generating more posts , we need perspectives from performers too at regular intervals!Good luck with your music

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:48

ramakriya wrote:BTW, does anyone have a recording of jayamaNgalam of Tyagaraja in Ghanta? If so please upload. I will try to get a recording too.

-Ramakriya

Found one recording of jayamangaLam in ghanTa here:

http://www.raaga.com/channels/carnatic/ ... 00040.html

It is the third song in the list.

Actually this rendition is making it even more complicated with shades of sourAshTra and Ahiri thrown in!

-Ramakriya

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 31 Jan 2018, 07:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeT6DEIV4rQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_yTvUeL1jw

T's jayamangaLam in ghantA featured in them. Sounds like punnAgavarALi. no dhanyAsi/bhairavi sAyal I could discern

Anand V. Raman · Post by **Anand V. Raman** » 03 Dec 2019, 16:09

Is there any composer other than Muthuswamy Dikshithar have composed krithis in this raga? Anand V. Raman.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 03 Dec 2019, 20:26

Wait till I get a weekend off where I can write in peace. I have cracked the mystery of ghanTa with a lot of help of course, and there will be some surprising revelations.

Hint : There's a Bell Museum.

ajaysimha · Post by **ajaysimha** » 04 Dec 2019, 14:19

ajaysimha · Post by **ajaysimha** » 02 Jan 2020, 16:17

SrinathK wrote: ↑03 Dec 2019, 20:26 Wait till I get a weekend off where I can write in peace. I have cracked the mystery of ghanTa with a lot of help of course, and there will be some surprising revelations.

Hint : There's a Bell Museum.

@SrinathK did you find any time to post the same.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 02 Jan 2020, 16:43

If I did wouldn't I have written it by now?

On top of it, this year I decided to enjoy the music season like it was my last month alive (ok a bit exaggerated, but not by much), so that pushes everything back. Plus I wanted to hear what Smt. Sowmya had sung for RTP which I eventually managed to do last week. So that's where things are right now.

rasikas.org

ghanTa

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