Yes one could could go with G = 1 for catuSra and say one note per beat of tala is always catuSra gati. But I lean towards "1" being more like applicable to all gatis.
Arun
kalai vs kalam and gathi vs nadai
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Arun, I have incorporated this in posts 2 and 4. Please review.
I assume you are fine with the generalization that odd numbers indicate the gathi category like thisram and chathusram. It is probably a trivial observation/generalization but want to make sure there are no exceptions no matter what that odd number is ( musical impossibility is a separate concern ).
I assume you are fine with the generalization that odd numbers indicate the gathi category like thisram and chathusram. It is probably a trivial observation/generalization but want to make sure there are no exceptions no matter what that odd number is ( musical impossibility is a separate concern ).
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
vk - the odd number sounds good, although psychologically an odd number assignment to "what seems like natural" catuSram seems .... ODD 
!!
cml - A forewarning; I am not 100% sure about what all exactly constitutes sarvalaghu (i.e. more importantly what is not) so cannot give a reliable answer.
I think in general with sarvalaghu, the stress points are usually always "in line" with the tala beat and thus perhaps less syncopation (say take a pattern that explicitly stress every 3/4th of a beat rather than 2/4 (i.e. 1/2) or exactly on the beat may not be part of it). The upside (to some) is that it is always catchy and rhythmic that it is perhaps easy and natural to enjoy it - besides mrdangam, SSI's kalpanaswaras are very attractive because of this. The downside (to some) is that it supposedly isnt intellectually challenging enough.
Arun
!!cml - A forewarning; I am not 100% sure about what all exactly constitutes sarvalaghu (i.e. more importantly what is not) so cannot give a reliable answer.
I think in general with sarvalaghu, the stress points are usually always "in line" with the tala beat and thus perhaps less syncopation (say take a pattern that explicitly stress every 3/4th of a beat rather than 2/4 (i.e. 1/2) or exactly on the beat may not be part of it). The upside (to some) is that it is always catchy and rhythmic that it is perhaps easy and natural to enjoy it - besides mrdangam, SSI's kalpanaswaras are very attractive because of this. The downside (to some) is that it supposedly isnt intellectually challenging enough.
Arun
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Shall we please discuss sarvalaghu and kaNakku in a separate thread
http://rasikas.org/forums/post121199.html#p121199
Thanks!
http://rasikas.org/forums/post121199.html#p121199
Thanks!
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: kalai vs kalam and gathi vs nadai
30/3/12
Very good explanation of kaLai, gati / nadai, the 2 kAlams etc by vasnathakokilam in Post # 2.
1) A small point :
Post # 2 by VK says : G = 3, 6, 9 for Tishra Gati.
How can we get G = o * p = 9 = 3 * 2^(What Integer) ??
Formula given by arunk in Post # 24 seems more correct : G = m * 2^n.
Also, as stated in Post # 26, “1” is probably applicable to each Gati.
Post 27 says the correction is done in Post 2 & 4. But still, it indicates G = o * p ??
***********************
2) Increasing kAlam (by increasing M interval) vs increasing kaLai = no of TALams / M :
How will we perceive the slowing down of speed in both cases ?
Corollary : Based on such a perceived sound, how will the listener discern which one of the above 2 is the current case ? ie, is it an increase in the M interval ? or is it an increase in the kaLai ?
***********************
3) Wrt Note 3 : Both kaLai shift to 1.25 M and Gati Shift from 4 to 5, so that :
Earlier 1 x 4 = Now : (1/1.25) x 5 = Still 4 is retained
Mathematically OK.
But, how does the listener identify this change in real time ?
What is it that gives away ?
***********************
4) A CM Music-lover (let us call him XYZ for now) told me :
"A Mishra ChApu song in Music Notation, will have 7 x 4 = 28 Counts for each Aavartana (Cycle); That's Pallavi Line, Anu Pallavi Line and CharaNa - Each will have 28 Counts."
My Q - on this multiplication by 4 above :
So, is Mishra ChApu supposed to be a ViLamba KAlam TALam by default, which is why, we multiply by 4 ? Could this be the reason why many of SS’s Songs (which are in slow pace) are in Mishra ChApu TALam ?
This slowing down - does it come under the slowing of M category ie, increasing M per min for a higher kAlam ?
However, in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10006, Post 7 states that M Chp is at a higher speed :
"Mishra ChApu does not follow the Laghu, Dhritam type scheme. It is more a Stutter-Step Pattern 3-2-2 . Though it looks like a Tishra Triputa Structure with a 3 beat Laghu and two 2 beat Dhritam, it’s feel is different because those 7 beats usually occur at double the speed. So it is really 1.5-1-1."
How do we explain these 2 seemingly opposite interpretations for M Chp - one implying that it is slower, and the other implying that it is faster ?
***********************
PS : It may be preferable to read this Post together with my foll Posts, also being sent today in :
- 1006 - Excel Table for Sapta TALams
on the Excel Table for Sapta TALams.
- MC vs TT TALams
on MC vs TT TALams.
***********************
Thanks in Advance (TIA).
...
Very good explanation of kaLai, gati / nadai, the 2 kAlams etc by vasnathakokilam in Post # 2.
1) A small point :
Post # 2 by VK says : G = 3, 6, 9 for Tishra Gati.
How can we get G = o * p = 9 = 3 * 2^(What Integer) ??
Formula given by arunk in Post # 24 seems more correct : G = m * 2^n.
Also, as stated in Post # 26, “1” is probably applicable to each Gati.
Post 27 says the correction is done in Post 2 & 4. But still, it indicates G = o * p ??
***********************
2) Increasing kAlam (by increasing M interval) vs increasing kaLai = no of TALams / M :
How will we perceive the slowing down of speed in both cases ?
Corollary : Based on such a perceived sound, how will the listener discern which one of the above 2 is the current case ? ie, is it an increase in the M interval ? or is it an increase in the kaLai ?
***********************
3) Wrt Note 3 : Both kaLai shift to 1.25 M and Gati Shift from 4 to 5, so that :
Earlier 1 x 4 = Now : (1/1.25) x 5 = Still 4 is retained
Mathematically OK.
But, how does the listener identify this change in real time ?
What is it that gives away ?
***********************
4) A CM Music-lover (let us call him XYZ for now) told me :
"A Mishra ChApu song in Music Notation, will have 7 x 4 = 28 Counts for each Aavartana (Cycle); That's Pallavi Line, Anu Pallavi Line and CharaNa - Each will have 28 Counts."
My Q - on this multiplication by 4 above :
So, is Mishra ChApu supposed to be a ViLamba KAlam TALam by default, which is why, we multiply by 4 ? Could this be the reason why many of SS’s Songs (which are in slow pace) are in Mishra ChApu TALam ?
This slowing down - does it come under the slowing of M category ie, increasing M per min for a higher kAlam ?
However, in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10006, Post 7 states that M Chp is at a higher speed :
"Mishra ChApu does not follow the Laghu, Dhritam type scheme. It is more a Stutter-Step Pattern 3-2-2 . Though it looks like a Tishra Triputa Structure with a 3 beat Laghu and two 2 beat Dhritam, it’s feel is different because those 7 beats usually occur at double the speed. So it is really 1.5-1-1."
How do we explain these 2 seemingly opposite interpretations for M Chp - one implying that it is slower, and the other implying that it is faster ?
***********************
PS : It may be preferable to read this Post together with my foll Posts, also being sent today in :
- 1006 - Excel Table for Sapta TALams
on the Excel Table for Sapta TALams.
- MC vs TT TALams
on MC vs TT TALams.
***********************
Thanks in Advance (TIA).
...