tala-laya are the synchronised form of presentation technique,
is there any information of basics on this topic which can teach new comers to music world
Tala-Laya
-
mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
Tala is Meter which cannot be changed. Whereas Laya is what is possible for the meter. By this i mean what are all the combinations that are possible within the gamut of the meter can be termed as Laya. I confess ignorance of the technical details related. What i have said above is what i have inferred from sources. I am willing to learn more on this account too.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, mridhangam, While Laya will not have any Talangas at all but rhythm the Tala has fixed Talangas to execute i.e., while Tala has Angas to execute, Laya has no Angas but only rhythm. In the same manner while a measuring tape containing inches or metres represents Tala the inches or metres in it represent Laya. This is the difference. amsharma.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
msakellaji, mridhangam: Thanks very much for the succinct explanation.
The following related topics are worth some descriptions and discussion that will benefit many of our non-musician rasikas. ( I know there is another thread where we have gotten into this but this is probably a more appropriate thread ).
1) To what extent Mridangamist (or any CM percussionist ) care about talanga, if at all?
2) From the sollu of the mridangam, can the listener get clues about which anga of the talaavarthana the song or thaniavarthanam is at?
3) A more specific case of item 2, can the listener get a clue about when the samam is reached based on what percussionists play?
4) In the other thread msakkelaji mentioned that Laghu in olden days used to be rendered as one beat lasting for different durations and the finger counting is a later development. That is very interesting. It looks like the finger counting was developed to make it easier to keep the different durations of the laghu by hand. Put in other words 'Laghu is undivded in its essential nature'.
If that is indeed true, I can see how naturally an 'eduppu' that starts after the first beat of the Laghu comes about ( the so called half eduppu ). That is pretty common in any music I hear whether popular or classical, whether eastern or western. But what is not seen normally is the eduppus that are present with the desAdi talas ( 1.5 ). If Laghu is undivided, that is quite an intriguing thing to have developed.
5) As a generalization of the above point, what is the musical, lyrical and rhythmical use of the Laghu and other angas. Most of us naturally perceive major stress points and minor stress points of different levels in a song. Do the various angas have any correlation to major and minor stress points?
The following related topics are worth some descriptions and discussion that will benefit many of our non-musician rasikas. ( I know there is another thread where we have gotten into this but this is probably a more appropriate thread ).
1) To what extent Mridangamist (or any CM percussionist ) care about talanga, if at all?
2) From the sollu of the mridangam, can the listener get clues about which anga of the talaavarthana the song or thaniavarthanam is at?
3) A more specific case of item 2, can the listener get a clue about when the samam is reached based on what percussionists play?
4) In the other thread msakkelaji mentioned that Laghu in olden days used to be rendered as one beat lasting for different durations and the finger counting is a later development. That is very interesting. It looks like the finger counting was developed to make it easier to keep the different durations of the laghu by hand. Put in other words 'Laghu is undivded in its essential nature'.
If that is indeed true, I can see how naturally an 'eduppu' that starts after the first beat of the Laghu comes about ( the so called half eduppu ). That is pretty common in any music I hear whether popular or classical, whether eastern or western. But what is not seen normally is the eduppus that are present with the desAdi talas ( 1.5 ). If Laghu is undivided, that is quite an intriguing thing to have developed.
5) As a generalization of the above point, what is the musical, lyrical and rhythmical use of the Laghu and other angas. Most of us naturally perceive major stress points and minor stress points of different levels in a song. Do the various angas have any correlation to major and minor stress points?
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear moderator, vasanthakokilam,
1.A Mridangist need not care for the Talanga at all, why because no such kind of tradition has ever been followed in which the Mridangam play has to be modified depending upon the Talanga executed by the main artist in a cycle of Tala. Bus he cares the point of stress given to the lyric like in the Adi-tala Kritis of slow tempo or the Padagarbha of a Pallavi.
2.The sollu of Mridanga does not reveal any clue about which Anga of the Taalaavartha the song or the Taniaavarthana is at.
3.Thumping or crying or falling down on one by the other with exitement at ‘Samam’ is not done in Karnataka music at all.
4.In those days, when there was no Anudruta at all, the Druta was rendered with a beat followed by a waving hand carrying 1-unit each and totaling to 2-units only, Laghu with a single beat carrying 4-units to be rendered in the duration of a second for Chaturashra. In those days the Talas constituted a number of Talangas but take a very little time to render. For example the great Simhanandana-tala consisting of 128-units was rendered in 32 seconds i.e., 32 x 4 = 128-units. But, to elongate each Kriya for much duration of time this finger counts for each unit of each Jaati must have later been introduced to facilitate an artist to render few Angas with much elongated intervals and sing more music than Talangas.
5.Talangas will not have any stress points by themselves but lyric will definitely have stress points like in different Kritis composed in Adi-tala of slow tempo but having different stress points in the lyric. For example in the Kriti ‘Chakkani Rajamargamundaga – Kharaharapriya-Adi’ in the Charana ‘Kantikisundara’ the stress is on the last letter ‘ra’ which falls on the beat of the 1st Druta and in the Kriti ‘Kaddanuvariki-Todi-Adi’ such stress is not there. amsharma.
1.A Mridangist need not care for the Talanga at all, why because no such kind of tradition has ever been followed in which the Mridangam play has to be modified depending upon the Talanga executed by the main artist in a cycle of Tala. Bus he cares the point of stress given to the lyric like in the Adi-tala Kritis of slow tempo or the Padagarbha of a Pallavi.
2.The sollu of Mridanga does not reveal any clue about which Anga of the Taalaavartha the song or the Taniaavarthana is at.
3.Thumping or crying or falling down on one by the other with exitement at ‘Samam’ is not done in Karnataka music at all.
4.In those days, when there was no Anudruta at all, the Druta was rendered with a beat followed by a waving hand carrying 1-unit each and totaling to 2-units only, Laghu with a single beat carrying 4-units to be rendered in the duration of a second for Chaturashra. In those days the Talas constituted a number of Talangas but take a very little time to render. For example the great Simhanandana-tala consisting of 128-units was rendered in 32 seconds i.e., 32 x 4 = 128-units. But, to elongate each Kriya for much duration of time this finger counts for each unit of each Jaati must have later been introduced to facilitate an artist to render few Angas with much elongated intervals and sing more music than Talangas.
5.Talangas will not have any stress points by themselves but lyric will definitely have stress points like in different Kritis composed in Adi-tala of slow tempo but having different stress points in the lyric. For example in the Kriti ‘Chakkani Rajamargamundaga – Kharaharapriya-Adi’ in the Charana ‘Kantikisundara’ the stress is on the last letter ‘ra’ which falls on the beat of the 1st Druta and in the Kriti ‘Kaddanuvariki-Todi-Adi’ such stress is not there. amsharma.
-
coolkarni
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, rajumds, Instead of having a big hall we make some partitions like rooms in our house to make use of the same area for many more purposes. In the same manner, instead of rendering 4 Drutas consecutively getting confused of the serial number of each Druta every time, it is more convenient to render the same duration with 1 Laghu of Chaturashra-jaati, and two Drutas. Only to make the matters easier to their descendants our ancestors must have chosen this 5th variety of Panchanga-prastara or the 10th variety of Shadanga-prastara or the 41st variety of Samyuktanga-prastara pertaining to 8-units and named it as ‘Adi-tala’. The Tala consisting of 4 Drutas is of the 6th variety of Panchanga-prastara or the 11th variety of Shadanga-prastara and the 43rd variety of Samyuktanga-prastara out of the total 6 or 56 or 128 varieties respectively. amsharma.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I am wondering about Rupaka tala.
It seems to me that, although this is invariably put in its common form of two claps and a wave, I quite often feel that the rhythmic structure of the song follows the 12 1234 form of Rupaka tala as per the 35-tala tabulation.
This sometimes makes it extremely difficult for my 'foreign' (and somewhat deficient) rhythm sense, which has been programmed to expect that three beats shall have a strong emphasis on the first beat --- as it would, for instance, in the European Waltz.
It seems to me that, although this is invariably put in its common form of two claps and a wave, I quite often feel that the rhythmic structure of the song follows the 12 1234 form of Rupaka tala as per the 35-tala tabulation.
This sometimes makes it extremely difficult for my 'foreign' (and somewhat deficient) rhythm sense, which has been programmed to expect that three beats shall have a strong emphasis on the first beat --- as it would, for instance, in the European Waltz.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
It feels that way to me as well, Nick. Especially MD's krithis have the proper structure 12 1234. It all works OK until kalpanaswaram time comes when the performer wraps up to the top as if it is a three beat avarthana. In that sense, it is not just a convention of keeping the kriya for the rUpaka tala with three beats for ease and convenience, it has been shrunk to a three beat avarthana. I should not generalize it to all performers though.. May be there are artists who treat it with the proper 6 beat avarthana throughout. May be in an RTP?
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
-
mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
nick H that clap and two finger couts are also there in 35 tala .. which we call Tisra Eka tala. More over Rupaka Tala as it is found in Suladi Sapta Tala Scheme starts with drutam and then goes to the Laghu and the starting point is drutam. The famous kriti Muthukumarayyane in Shankarabharanam is sung in chatusra rupakam two kalai with Anaagatha eduppu ie., 3 beats after the start. Smt.suguna Purushotaman renders this kriti very nicely in this tala and with an excellent neraval at Kumarayyane the place of which is 7 beats after the samam or 3 beats after the laghu starts. Which gives ample scope for all the laya buffs to play exceeding korvais and patterns. Moreover Suguna ji being a veteran in such aspects of our music understandingly puts the talam for mridangists to play. I have even heard Dr. Sangita Kalanidhi Mani Krishnaswamy sing most of the rupaka tala kritis, that is what we mean the common rupaka tala (two beats and a wave), in Tisra Eka Talam only. may be we all may hv to wait for msakella to offer the origins or some more technicalities here.
I remain.
I remain.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
amsharmaji: Thanks. Please continue to discuss and elaborate this aspect since this is a common question amateurs have about our talas since most of us read the theoretical aspects about the angas without an appreciation of how it is integrated with the composition in terms of word alignment and beat and stress arrangement. ( though the discussion so far seems to indicate the angas do not have much to do with stress points ).msakella wrote:instead of rendering 4 Drutas consecutively getting confused of the serial number of each Druta every time, it is more convenient to render the same duration with 1 Laghu of Chaturashra-jaati, and two Drutas. amsharma.
Your last post quoted above seems to indicate that the angas and the associated kriyas are mainly there to help the beat counting process and communicating where we are in the avarthana to others. Please correct me if I got it wrong.
If this is correct, rajumds's question, which is a common doubt many people have, is answered in a clear manner but somehow it does not feel satisfactory. What this implies is there is not any rhythmical difference that are inherent in the song between two compositions in, say, Chathusra Eka and Adi tala, Misra Eka and ata thala, or Kanda Eka and kanda chapu. But this implication is wrong, isn't it? ( because to my amateur ear the songs in those pairs of thalas seem to have different rhythmic feel ).
( Just to be sure that we bring into context all the material we have covered so far, you already pointed out that an exagerated stress is given at the padhagarba. Padhagarba normally falls on an anga around the mid point of the avarthana and in that sense the angas have a role in defining and anchoring that mid point. ).
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
I will have to listen Sugunaji's rendition. Thanks Balaji for the reference.mridhangam wrote:Smt.suguna Purushotaman renders this kriti very nicely in this tala and with an excellent neraval at Kumarayyane the place of which is 7 beats after the samam or 3 beats after the laghu starts. Which gives ample scope for all the laya buffs to play exceeding korvais and patterns. ........ I have even heard Dr. Sangita Kalanidhi Mani Krishnaswamy sing most of the rupaka tala kritis, that is what we mean the common rupaka tala (two beats and a wave), in Tisra Eka Talam only.
Talking of tisra eka, the flip side of this is, many of MD's krithis that are specified as tisra eka feel more natural with the 6 beat rUpaka. It is probably because the lyrics neatly fit into even multiples of tisra eka avarthana kAlam and the majesticity of the movement of the krithis go more with the 6 beat rUpakam ( subjective opinion of course ). Example: I do not feel much difference in the rhythmic structure between Jambupathe-Yamuna Kalyani which is specified as Tisra Eka and Kamalambike-Thodi which is specified as Rupaka. Of course, both have their individuality as compositions but rhythmic template is in the same ball park. The stresses fall in the right places contributing to the majesticity that one typically sees with a 6 beat rUpaka structure.
Whereas Arunachalanatham-Saaranga which is notated as rUpakam, the repeated line of lyrics fit into a 9 beat cycle, so it is probably more appropriate to fit it in tisra EkA.
-
mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
Tala should be taken as a perennial stream. what we do is we enter the stream and we exit the stream at any point making them starting point and ending points. in a journey of rhythms we may like to take rest that may be termed as the midpoint or arudi. We may like to change course in the journey that may indicate the shift in Nadais and korvais. Moreover those Talangas mentioned above are only reference point in a Tala for musicians as well as rasikas. Presume there is no end point or starting point ? we may incessantly go on and on dont know where to start and where to end. More over the angas also indicate how far we are away from the starting point. It makes us easier for calculation purposes to reach the end poing vis-a-vis the starting point. So Talangas are very important. May be the term Talanga sounds a bit technical. We may use them as Time reference points for a particular Time Scale. Sharmaji ...Am i on the right track ?
-
Venkat
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 18 Dec 2006, 11:33
Shri Akella Mallikarjuna Sharma
Yesterday's demo @ Music Academy
Yesterday your demonstartion on Sruthi box was very nice. if you could have given example with the existing sruthi box with respect to your invention. our understanding would have been much easier . (May because of time factor you might have hurried )
Yesterday's demo @ Music Academy
Yesterday your demonstartion on Sruthi box was very nice. if you could have given example with the existing sruthi box with respect to your invention. our understanding would have been much easier . (May because of time factor you might have hurried )
-
rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
As an aside to the learned topic of the thread: it was great to meet rajumds at the demo.
Meeting msakellaji was a great pleasure, although it was for just a few minutes. How can I give my impression: a 'gentle giant' of music perhaps? I wanted to be sure that I had not given offence in any online argument: he seemed shocked that I might think so. He made a point, in response, I think to something rajumds said about this forum, that he felt the responsibility to share knowledge.
I should say also, that even though it was only a few snatches of raga, for demonstration purposes, it was a great pleasure to hear him sing too.
I don't keep 'Indian hours' --- I am so glad I made the effort to be up and out of the house several hours earlier than usual!
Meeting msakellaji was a great pleasure, although it was for just a few minutes. How can I give my impression: a 'gentle giant' of music perhaps? I wanted to be sure that I had not given offence in any online argument: he seemed shocked that I might think so. He made a point, in response, I think to something rajumds said about this forum, that he felt the responsibility to share knowledge.
I should say also, that even though it was only a few snatches of raga, for demonstration purposes, it was a great pleasure to hear him sing too.
I don't keep 'Indian hours' --- I am so glad I made the effort to be up and out of the house several hours earlier than usual!
Last edited by Guest on 18 Dec 2006, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-members, venkat, rajumds & nick H, I felt extremely happy for having met our brother-members, rajumds & nick H in the Music Academy, Chennai. (Of course, I could not meet our member, venkat) Mr. Nick H has always been courteous towards me. He need not think otherwise at all. I shall always try to act accordingly in enlightening our brother-members by bringing out the details of the musical aspects I have been blessed by the Almighty.
In fact, on that day I was not in good mood to participate in the Lec-dem in the Music Academy. Not even a single word about my Lec-dem has been mentioned in the brochure. Not even a notice board, bringing about this information, has been displayed at the hall. In the absence of any publicity there are hardly 10 members in the hall. Even before the commencement of the Lec-dem I have not been introduced to the audience. I have every respect towards Shri Shrivatsan, the Secretary of the Music Academy. But, ultimately, all these things disturbed me and made me conclude in and around 20 minutes bringing only some of the details of these instruments. Even in the beginning I would have refused to demonstrate. But, as I have to obey the suggestion of my Param Guru Sangita Kalanidhi, Padma Vibhushan Dr. Shripada Pinakapani to demonstrate this instrument in the Music Academy, I could not refuse. Long long ago, when, once, I have participated in this Music Academy accompanying somebody on Violin, in the end, I have been paid some amount towards my travel. But, this time I have not been offered even the Taxi conveyance charges leave alone the travel expenses. After receiving such nice heart-touching treatment, even if they had offered me some amount, I would have flatly refused to take it. That is why I did not make any comments at all even when Mr. TNS spoke against this instrument and for the conventional Tambura. As a professional and ‘Top-grade’ Violinist and a reputed teacher, having desisgned this new Electronic-automatic-tambura highly reliable, convenient than the usual conventional Tambura, I have been using this instrument since last 20 years in all my Radio, TV and private concerts. Nearly 70 to 80 musicians to whom I have introduced this instrument have become addicted to this instrument and they all are relying upon this instrument only in their concerts. Of course, off-note-singers cannot bear with this instrument. That is the truth. amsharma.
In fact, on that day I was not in good mood to participate in the Lec-dem in the Music Academy. Not even a single word about my Lec-dem has been mentioned in the brochure. Not even a notice board, bringing about this information, has been displayed at the hall. In the absence of any publicity there are hardly 10 members in the hall. Even before the commencement of the Lec-dem I have not been introduced to the audience. I have every respect towards Shri Shrivatsan, the Secretary of the Music Academy. But, ultimately, all these things disturbed me and made me conclude in and around 20 minutes bringing only some of the details of these instruments. Even in the beginning I would have refused to demonstrate. But, as I have to obey the suggestion of my Param Guru Sangita Kalanidhi, Padma Vibhushan Dr. Shripada Pinakapani to demonstrate this instrument in the Music Academy, I could not refuse. Long long ago, when, once, I have participated in this Music Academy accompanying somebody on Violin, in the end, I have been paid some amount towards my travel. But, this time I have not been offered even the Taxi conveyance charges leave alone the travel expenses. After receiving such nice heart-touching treatment, even if they had offered me some amount, I would have flatly refused to take it. That is why I did not make any comments at all even when Mr. TNS spoke against this instrument and for the conventional Tambura. As a professional and ‘Top-grade’ Violinist and a reputed teacher, having desisgned this new Electronic-automatic-tambura highly reliable, convenient than the usual conventional Tambura, I have been using this instrument since last 20 years in all my Radio, TV and private concerts. Nearly 70 to 80 musicians to whom I have introduced this instrument have become addicted to this instrument and they all are relying upon this instrument only in their concerts. Of course, off-note-singers cannot bear with this instrument. That is the truth. amsharma.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I am sorry for your treatment at the MA. Of course I noticed that there was no announcement, as I always look to check that I am going to the right place at the right time. Luckily I believed my memory of your post (which I could not find just before leaving) and the worst that happened was I was a little early --- which is good as I am usually late for things.
When you come to Chennai again I request an hour of your time (which I'd be happy to share with other members, of course!) to question and hear you talk about music.
When you come to Chennai again I request an hour of your time (which I'd be happy to share with other members, of course!) to question and hear you talk about music.
-
rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
i felt exteremely bad about the treatment. as nick said i had to rely on my memory, since even the person at the reception didn't know about the program. TNS & Dr Srivatsa were absolutely not interested in the demo & it showed in their posture. MA didn't even show the basic courtesy of formally introducing Sri Sharma. TNS in his concluding remark could have certainly been more courteous even if he didn't agree with usefulness of the instrument. If you have decided it is not worth discussing why at all trouble Mr Sharma to visit MA.
Yes the way the whole program was handled by MA left a very bad taste. I would have posted this earlier but i felt that i could wait for Mr.Sharma's views & hence the post now.
Yes the way the whole program was handled by MA left a very bad taste. I would have posted this earlier but i felt that i could wait for Mr.Sharma's views & hence the post now.
-
coolkarni
Dear Sarma ,
Dont get disheartened !
As Northcote Parkinson says in his delightful book LEFT LUGGAGE ,
By next year -as Nick Suggests-we should be having some alternative space here in Chennai to eagerly listen to the likes of you.
Dont get disheartened !
As Northcote Parkinson says in his delightful book LEFT LUGGAGE ,
So it is with the Music Academy ,at least to me.In these rapidly changing Times.The Royal Navy is no longer a tool of the Empire but is merely a Symbol of a supremacy that is lost.
By next year -as Nick Suggests-we should be having some alternative space here in Chennai to eagerly listen to the likes of you.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-member, rajumds, The Music Academy is a great organisatiion which has been serving our society for the cause of Music since many decades. We, Indians, must honour it. We should not blame the Almighty if the Archaka mis-behaves. More over, while my beloved Guru is Shri Nedunuri Krishna Murthy, his Guru Dr. Shripada Pinakapani becomes my Parama Guru and I must always obey his orders. That is why, to honour his suggestion of demonstrating this novel Tambura in Music Academy, I have finished my job and came out of that premises, irrespective of any kind of treatment I have received. As you all know it is always desirable and better to obey the elders as the elders always wish the youngers flourish. amsharma.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear moderator, coolkarni, The Almighty has blessed me with a very peaceful and desireless life. By the grace of the Almighty, generally, I never get disturbed. Had I been disturbed much I would have gone away even without participating in it. That is why I have cut my speech short only to obey the suggestion of Dr. Shripada Pinakapani, my Parama Guru to demonstrate this instrument in the Music Academy. I always co-operate with you in every manner in serving for the cause of music. amsharma.
-
rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
sharmajimsakella wrote:The Music Academy is a great organisatiion which has been serving our society for the cause of Music since many decades. We, Indians, must honour it. We should not blame the Almighty if the Archaka mis-behaves.
you post shows you are not only a great musician but also a great person. we youngsters must definitely learn from you , how to approach an issue with a open mind. thanks a lot for this lesson
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-members, rajumds & jayaram, Thank you. The good qualities of me are the ones showered by the Almighty and the bad qualities are hard earned. Occasionally and rarely my good qualities may over power the bad qualities. Please don’t praise me for this occasional reaction. I, myself, do not know when my bad qualities over power my good qualities. (Mr.Raju, please don’t forget to collect those two sets of books from Dr.Ramanathan (044- 24359430 & 9444162728) and pass on one set of them to Mr.nick H) amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 21 Dec 2006, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
-
sandhyashree
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 01 Oct 2006, 15:27
Hello,
This is Sandhya...........
It was a pleasure to meet both Mr rajumds and Mr Nick..........
Hope you remember...me,i was there with Shri MsakellagAru.........at the Music Academy.......
I am glad that you noticed the sheer indifference of people there regarding the programme.I felt so bad that i dropped all plans of attending concerts at the Academy on that day.
I had planned the trip to Chennai mainly because i wanted to be there at my Guru's lecdem.......but was disappointed...........
At this juncture i'd like to say that the instrument is suitable for all ragas............even those that are totally Gamaka oriented.........
The smaller instrument is designed for more practical purposes such as practice and concerts and is not meant for mere practice.I am saying this emphatically since i use it personally.
It is unfortunate if people are not even open for innovations leave alone acepting them.........
This is Sandhya...........
It was a pleasure to meet both Mr rajumds and Mr Nick..........
Hope you remember...me,i was there with Shri MsakellagAru.........at the Music Academy.......
I am glad that you noticed the sheer indifference of people there regarding the programme.I felt so bad that i dropped all plans of attending concerts at the Academy on that day.
I had planned the trip to Chennai mainly because i wanted to be there at my Guru's lecdem.......but was disappointed...........
At this juncture i'd like to say that the instrument is suitable for all ragas............even those that are totally Gamaka oriented.........
The smaller instrument is designed for more practical purposes such as practice and concerts and is not meant for mere practice.I am saying this emphatically since i use it personally.
It is unfortunate if people are not even open for innovations leave alone acepting them.........
Last edited by sandhyashree on 22 Dec 2006, 16:44, edited 1 time in total.
-
rajeshnat
- Posts: 9927
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
sandhyashree,
May be we are living in the era where we believe earth is center ,where copernicus (Your guru shri sharmaji) is saying Sun is the center and not the earth. Don't feel disheartened, I would suggest you and him to work together and use multimedia recording software .Sometimes you have to reach with rasikas directly , instead of sabhas and vidwans.
May be we are living in the era where we believe earth is center ,where copernicus (Your guru shri sharmaji) is saying Sun is the center and not the earth. Don't feel disheartened, I would suggest you and him to work together and use multimedia recording software .Sometimes you have to reach with rasikas directly , instead of sabhas and vidwans.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 22 Dec 2006, 17:16, edited 1 time in total.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Moving forward, thinking from a marketing angle, it may be fruitful to show this to Carnatic Music teachers in India and around the world who can then recommend this to their students. You do not really need a lot of adoption (%wise ) to seed this. If one in 5 teachers see the merit and talk about this to their students and 1 in 5 students use this, that will be a good start. Is there some kind of an Association of Carnatic Music Teachers?
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear moderator, vasanthakokilam and member, rajeshnat, What you wrote in your posts regarding the recognition and implementatioin of any innovative methods in our country is true and we need not and should not feel disheartened for this but should always do what we can to enlighten the society even if the people will not take them positively. Thinking on these lines only, two years back, when I, as a member of the South Zone Cultural Centre, Thanjavur, have given proposals for the 2nd time for the propagation of the ‘easy methods in teaching Karnataka music’ and offered myself to serve the cause of music even without any monetary benefit at all. But, the Director concerned, instead of taking any action in the right direction and also to avoid any pressure from the other members, simply passed them on to the Director, Department of Culture, Govt. Andhra Pradesh, Hyderabad and he, in turn, taken a positive action by requesting me to make periodical visits to all the 12 Govt. Music & Dance Institutions in our State for the implementation of the ‘easy methods’. Later, finding excellent results in the development of the standards of the students I was asked again to continue the same in this academic year 2006 - 2007 also. Thus, the Almighty had blessed me with the oppurtunity and since then I have been able to serve our community. In last March 2006, in another meeting held at Chennai, bringing the details of the developmental activities implemented in the 12 Govt. Colleges of Music & Dance of Andhra Pradesh, I have again given proposals to implement the same in all the 18 Govt. Music Schools, 4 Govt. Music Colleges and Music Departments of several Universities situated in Tamil Nadu also. But there is no response at all. Our authorities have that kind of interest in keeping our Culture in tact. Of course, as you have told I am trying to use multimedia-recording software for this purpose to make it more easily accessible to our community worldwide. amsharma.
-
sandhyashree
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 01 Oct 2006, 15:27
Rajumds,
Yes, you are right in saying so. I am also seeing the ways of the world.I think i should stop being too sensitive.
As our Guru has said, we will definitely try to reach the rasiks. I'll try to help him in his attempts to upload some material.I have a few rAgas that he has sung.
Also Mr.Nick,thanks for the reply.
I too thought we should have spent some time together.
Hope we can all meet sometime!!!!!!!!!
Yes, you are right in saying so. I am also seeing the ways of the world.I think i should stop being too sensitive.
As our Guru has said, we will definitely try to reach the rasiks. I'll try to help him in his attempts to upload some material.I have a few rAgas that he has sung.
Also Mr.Nick,thanks for the reply.
I too thought we should have spent some time together.
Hope we can all meet sometime!!!!!!!!!
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Music, Yes! This is a Tambura to be useful to the artist whoever wants to sing ‘IN’ Shruti unlike many of our Carnatic musicians who sing ‘WITH’ Shruti only and who cannot sing Pachama-varja-ragas like Shreeranjani or Abhogi or Hindola or Hamsanandi avoiding Panchama in their Tambura.
While singing such Panchama-varja-ragas, if that Raga consists of Sadharana-gandhara, along with Panchama even Mandra-shadja also has to be avoided in the Tambura as Mandra-shadja also produces Antara-gandhara as ‘Svayambhoo-svara’ or upper partials or harmonics. In such case to make that Raga more enjoyable the Mandra-shadja has to be increased one octave taking it to the next higher octave, Madhya-shadja as harmonics disappear in the higher octave. Such facility of avoiding the Mandra-shadja and, at the same time, providing the Madhya-shadja or modifying the existing Mandra-shadja as Madhya-shadja is not available at all in any of the present day Electronic Tamburas except in the Tambura designed by me which was demonstrated recently in the Music Academy, Chennai. While our Carnatic musicians give more importance to ‘SANGATI’ than ‘SANGITAM’, Hindusthani musicians give more importance to ‘SANGITAM’. That is why while the audience for Hindusthani is on the increase the audience for Carnatic is on the decrease. Many of our Carnatic artists may not be ready to agree with me but this is the truth. Of course, now days, some of our Carnatic musicians are far better in relaising this and are on the increase in their Shruti sensitivity. They only stand as the saviours of our Carnatic Music. I wish all of them a very bright future. amsharma.
While singing such Panchama-varja-ragas, if that Raga consists of Sadharana-gandhara, along with Panchama even Mandra-shadja also has to be avoided in the Tambura as Mandra-shadja also produces Antara-gandhara as ‘Svayambhoo-svara’ or upper partials or harmonics. In such case to make that Raga more enjoyable the Mandra-shadja has to be increased one octave taking it to the next higher octave, Madhya-shadja as harmonics disappear in the higher octave. Such facility of avoiding the Mandra-shadja and, at the same time, providing the Madhya-shadja or modifying the existing Mandra-shadja as Madhya-shadja is not available at all in any of the present day Electronic Tamburas except in the Tambura designed by me which was demonstrated recently in the Music Academy, Chennai. While our Carnatic musicians give more importance to ‘SANGATI’ than ‘SANGITAM’, Hindusthani musicians give more importance to ‘SANGITAM’. That is why while the audience for Hindusthani is on the increase the audience for Carnatic is on the decrease. Many of our Carnatic artists may not be ready to agree with me but this is the truth. Of course, now days, some of our Carnatic musicians are far better in relaising this and are on the increase in their Shruti sensitivity. They only stand as the saviours of our Carnatic Music. I wish all of them a very bright future. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 28 Dec 2006, 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
-
mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
this is with reference to the treatment meted out to our member Mr.Sharmaji by the Meccademy. Though i sincerely feel bad for Mr.Sharma ji, I cannot but help telling the rasikas@org about the excellent treatment given to me on all the three occasions i went to the Meccademy for performance. In my nearly 20 years of concert playing stint with the Meccademy this time is probably the best treatment i got. The moment I got my scooter parked near the entrance where all the artistes go to the stage, a volunteer (Who is a student at the Academy's Music College) came rushing and took my mridangam and Bag and kept it inside. Not only this he also politely enquired whether i required coffee or tea (with sugar or without sugar). That was not it he went and brought me coffee from the canteen and later on even before the concert the volunteer took the mridangam to the stage and kept it reverentially and even at that time he requested me whether i need anything. This was for the first concert of Prema Rangarajan on 20th December 2006. Next I went to accompany for a Lecture-Demonstration of Shri.V.Subramaniyam on Neelakanta Sivan Kritis. Dr.V.V.Srivatsa and Sri.T.N.Seshagopalan greeted me pleasantly and spoke highly about me during the summing up session. on the same day, ie., 26-12-2006 I had a concert slated for the 2.30 for Mrs.Arundati Hariharan of Trivandrum for which i went as early as 1.30 itself. The same volunteer greeted me at the entrance and took the mridangam and kept it upstairs. At this juncture i told him that as I hadnt finished my lunch i will go to the canteen and have it and return here. He immediately said "Sir Academy bears all the expenses for the artistes. You tell me what you want lunch or Tiffin i shall get u". Not only this after another 15 minutes he brought me a full lunch and gave me. After the concert on all the days the volunteer used to take my instrument and came upto the scooter and then only he left. Not only this, when i went yesterday to listen to the Concert of Neyveli Sir, and i requested one of the organisers to let me in, he immediately issued me a complimentary Pass and made me sit in the Ground Floor reserved for Patrons. The whole incidents i mentioned above is to narrate my experience with the Academy this year. Kudos to Mr.Sharma for taking it very bravely and philosophically too.
JB
JB
Last edited by mridhangam on 28 Dec 2006, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, mridhangam, I felt extremely happy to know that you have received excellent treatment as an artiste and I also wish that every artist should receive that kind of excellent treatment. Of course, the Almighty had blessed me with a nice balance of mind and I forgot all about it then there. amsharma.
-
mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
Sharma Sir that is the best quality i liked in you even though you were not treated properly. I liked your philosophy and also the unperturbed way in which you have taken it in your own stride. I have noted down your number in my mobile sir. I will try to meet you when i come to hyderabad on 24th January and again on Feb 10th and 11th. Thank you sir.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear moderator, vasanthakokilam, Sorry for the delay in answering your post No.17, which I have accidentally missed it when I was on the trip to Chennai.
The great Vidwans of yesteryears have chosen different Talas for their compositions sometimes to make them more easy, sometimes to make them complex, sometimes fixing stress points, sometimes without stress points etc., etc., for their own reasons. If we take ‘Paridanamicchite Palintuvemo - Bilahari’ said to have originally been composed in ‘Mishra-jhampa-tala’ of 10 Kriyas in an Avarta, is mostly sung now in ‘Trisra-rupaka’ or ‘Khanda-chapu’. It was told by some knowledgeable Vidwans that it was originally composed in ‘Mishra-jhampa’ to have a completed meaning in each Avarta, which is quite possible. But, why the composer had chosen this Tala in particular? Why not either of Chaturashra-mathya or Trisra-ata like Dikshitar who have composed in all the 7 principal Talas unlike the other two of the Trinity.
Even inrespect of the stress points while ‘Kantiki SundaRAtaramagu Roopame’ of Chakkanirajamargamu-Kharaharapriya’ have a stress point ‘RA’ on the beat, ‘Koluvamaregada - Todi’ of the same Eduppu or ‘Kaddanuvariki - Todi’ of different Eduppu do not have any stress point at all.
‘The Angas and the associated Kriyas are mainly there to help the beat counting and communicating where we are in the Avarta to ourselves and also to others as well’ - is correct and, no doubt, you got the correct answer.
Experts have different rhythmic feelings in those pairs of Talas you wrote. You are also feeling the same. Still you want to declare yourself amateur, I can’t help!
Our Vidwans have already stopped using the 108 Talas or other lenthy Talas since a very long time and, even now, feeling it difficult to render such a longer ‘Mishra-jhampa’ to sing ‘Paridanamicchite – Bilahari’ they have made it two halves and are singing in ‘Khanda-chapu’. They are unable to bear with the minimum hardship. Even while singing a Varna both Purvanga and Uttaranga should always be sung in the same manner. But, to avoid the mathematical implications of the Uttaranga, all are singing it in Madhyamakala only. That is the trend degrading the standards. A performer is doing this to avoid any kind of hardship. But, if a teacher also avoids it to teach the students all the mathematical implications, what does it mean? That is the pity. Most unfortunately, all the teachers, instead of initiating them learn Varnas and Kritis on their own are used to teach their students as many Varnas and Kritis as they can. That is why most of the aspirants are not getting even the minimum standards of Manodharma at all. Sorry, I am again going off the track as usual
The word ‘Padagarbha’ is a technical term of one of the constituent limbs of the ‘Pallavi’. It not necessarily be the mid point of an Avarta. For example, recetly I have heard someone singing a Pallavi in Chaturashra-jaati-ata-tala of 12 Kriyas in an Avarta but having two Padagarbhas on 5th & 9th Kriyas very nicely fit in. That is why we can call such stress at such midpoint of a composition in Adi-tala as ‘stress’ only but not Padagarbha at all. amsharma.
The great Vidwans of yesteryears have chosen different Talas for their compositions sometimes to make them more easy, sometimes to make them complex, sometimes fixing stress points, sometimes without stress points etc., etc., for their own reasons. If we take ‘Paridanamicchite Palintuvemo - Bilahari’ said to have originally been composed in ‘Mishra-jhampa-tala’ of 10 Kriyas in an Avarta, is mostly sung now in ‘Trisra-rupaka’ or ‘Khanda-chapu’. It was told by some knowledgeable Vidwans that it was originally composed in ‘Mishra-jhampa’ to have a completed meaning in each Avarta, which is quite possible. But, why the composer had chosen this Tala in particular? Why not either of Chaturashra-mathya or Trisra-ata like Dikshitar who have composed in all the 7 principal Talas unlike the other two of the Trinity.
Even inrespect of the stress points while ‘Kantiki SundaRAtaramagu Roopame’ of Chakkanirajamargamu-Kharaharapriya’ have a stress point ‘RA’ on the beat, ‘Koluvamaregada - Todi’ of the same Eduppu or ‘Kaddanuvariki - Todi’ of different Eduppu do not have any stress point at all.
‘The Angas and the associated Kriyas are mainly there to help the beat counting and communicating where we are in the Avarta to ourselves and also to others as well’ - is correct and, no doubt, you got the correct answer.
Experts have different rhythmic feelings in those pairs of Talas you wrote. You are also feeling the same. Still you want to declare yourself amateur, I can’t help!
Our Vidwans have already stopped using the 108 Talas or other lenthy Talas since a very long time and, even now, feeling it difficult to render such a longer ‘Mishra-jhampa’ to sing ‘Paridanamicchite – Bilahari’ they have made it two halves and are singing in ‘Khanda-chapu’. They are unable to bear with the minimum hardship. Even while singing a Varna both Purvanga and Uttaranga should always be sung in the same manner. But, to avoid the mathematical implications of the Uttaranga, all are singing it in Madhyamakala only. That is the trend degrading the standards. A performer is doing this to avoid any kind of hardship. But, if a teacher also avoids it to teach the students all the mathematical implications, what does it mean? That is the pity. Most unfortunately, all the teachers, instead of initiating them learn Varnas and Kritis on their own are used to teach their students as many Varnas and Kritis as they can. That is why most of the aspirants are not getting even the minimum standards of Manodharma at all. Sorry, I am again going off the track as usual
The word ‘Padagarbha’ is a technical term of one of the constituent limbs of the ‘Pallavi’. It not necessarily be the mid point of an Avarta. For example, recetly I have heard someone singing a Pallavi in Chaturashra-jaati-ata-tala of 12 Kriyas in an Avarta but having two Padagarbhas on 5th & 9th Kriyas very nicely fit in. That is why we can call such stress at such midpoint of a composition in Adi-tala as ‘stress’ only but not Padagarbha at all. amsharma.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Thanks very much msakellaji for the detailed response. It is very much appreciated. Also, thanks for clarifying that Padhagarba is a technical term used only in the context of a Pallavi. Though I have not heard a pallavi in Chaturashra-jaati-ata-tala, I can see how the two padhagarbas on the 5th and 9th kriyas will fit in naturally and nicely. Thanks.
-
msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Hello! Brothers & sisters dear, One of our friends was kind enough in helping our brothers and sisters by uploading my CD containing the easy, effective and innovative methods in learning our Karnataka music along with many Laya exercises and Muktayis furnished in my book, Sangita Svararaga Sudha. Hope he will inform you in which this should be downloaded. Utilise this oppurtunity and awail it properly. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.