Angas for Chapu talas?

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sridharrajagopal
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#1 Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by sridharrajagopal » 17 Mar 2011, 00:55

The chapu talas have their avartanam structures, namely 3, 5, 7, 9 beats per cycle, but do not specify the angas (namely, body or constituent parts).

Can we still use the regular angas (as described in the tala dasapranas and the 108 talas, suladi talas, etc) in describing the structure of the chapu talam? For example, a Tisra Chapu is Tha Ki Ta, and from the hand movements, can be split into 1 + 2. This can be viewed as an Anudhrutham followed by a Dhrutham.

Similarly, Khanda Chapu is Tha ka Tha ki ta (2 + 3), but can be construed as 2 + 1 + 2 based on the hand movements. Can this then be viewed as a Dhrutham followed by an Anudhrutham followed by a Dhrutham?

Misra and Sankeerna Chapus can be similarly represented. It bothers me a little that we have the Tala dasapranas, and angas, that are used by both the 108 talas as well as the Suladi talas, but the Chapu talas don't have any defined angas, merely 2+3 etc. Are there defined angas for the Chapu talas? Is it ok to use the Anudhrutham/dhrutham to describe them, or is it blasphemous? :-)

Regards,
Sridhar
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arunk
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#2 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by arunk » 17 Mar 2011, 20:26

it would be unconventional I guess - if you expression ta-ka ta-ki-Ta as dhrutam + anudhrutam + dhrutam, mathematically it fits but that is not we do put the tala (i.e. dhrutam involves two actions palm down and then palm up but here for both we dont do it - and it may be confusing to the end-user.

In my notation typesetter, i view khanda-capu as a "mixed-gati" - i.e. one count catusram (for 2) and one count tisram (for 3). It works for purposes of typesetting but I am not sure if that concept is useful for you.

You can perhaps simply invent your own angas (symbols) - rather than stretching existing ones beyond their normal intended use.

Arun
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sridharrajagopal
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#3 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by sridharrajagopal » 19 Mar 2011, 01:37

Thanks for your reply. I was trying to fit in existing angas into the system, while wondering if there were any specific angas already defined for the Chapu talams (looks like there aren't?). I agree it might be confusing to the end-user to represent the angas using Dhrutham and Anudhrutham, since that would imply the incorrect way of putting the tala.

Checked out your typesetting and transliteration tools - pretty neat! Yeah, I don't think that would help in my case as I wouldn't want to change the gati mid-avartanam.

Regards,
Sridhar
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mridangamkid
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#4 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by mridangamkid » 23 Mar 2011, 07:05

Dear sir,

As far chapu thalams itself go, I don't believe there are certain "angas" for it. HOWEVER, if one was pressed to put anga's for a chapu thalam, one could say each "chapu" thalam is merely a "sapta" thala with manipulated laghu.

The two prominent chapu thalams used is Kanda (sp?) and Mishra.

As you and others have mentioned, Kanda Chapu is thaka thakita which is equivalent to a total of 5 beats per cycle. Is this not simply Thisra jathi rupaka thalam. This would be one dhrithum (2) and three laghus (3). The only difference between this and kanda chapu is generally kanda chapu is set at a much higher tempo and some beats are stressed/accented more than others.

Along with this, for mishra chapu, one could use thisra jathi thriputa thalam. 3 laghu and 2 dhrithums (4). If increasing the speed, simply accent each clap and you will hear mishra chapu.

So as far as I'm concerned, there really aren't any "angas" for chapu thalams, but each chapu thala is simply one of the sapta thala's on steroids (for lack of a better metaphore). I hope this made sense/kind of answered your question.
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mohan
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#5 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by mohan » 23 Mar 2011, 07:56

mridangamkid wrote:each chapu thala is simply one of the sapta thala's on steroids.
Good description. I generally equate Misra Chapu with a fast version of Tisra Jathi triputa tala and Khanda Chapu as a fast version of Misra Jhampa tala.
Some Dikshitar krithis (eg Sri Mahaganapatiravatu - gowla) which some sources list as Tisra Triputa are commonly rendered in Misra Chapu. Similarly krithis like Heccarikaga - Yadukula Kambhoji are sometimes shown as in Jhampa tala but usually rendered in Khanda Chapu.
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sridharrajagopal
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#6 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by sridharrajagopal » 24 Mar 2011, 23:27

Thanks for your replies, mridangamkid and mohan! Makes perfect sense, and some good information!
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arunk
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#7 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by arunk » 25 Mar 2011, 07:16

While mista-caou does seem to map nicely to a fast (time condensed) tisra triputa (as opposed to other 7 count talas like khanda-rupaka and misra-eka) - because of the 3+2+2 in both, same similarity does not exist between khanda-capu and khanda-jhampa. Instead, I think khanda capu similarly maps to tisra-rupaka rather than khanda-jhampa - 2+3 in both - but i have never seen that mapping used (because tisrarupaka seems too rare). I cannot find one for sankeerna capu's 2+3+2+2 (?)

So can one argue that this equating misracapu as a condensed TIsratriputa as only a special case which just happens to make sense and cannot be generalized case at least one that conforms to actual use?

Arun
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sridharrajagopal
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#8 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by sridharrajagopal » 02 Apr 2011, 02:46

Arun, you've brought up a point that had been nagging me about the angas for Chapu talams - from what I understood and had read at different sources, the cadence of the Chapu talas with their syncopated beats didn't quite fit the Suladi classifcation (tisra triputa, tisra rupaka, etc) - i.e. while they may mathematically satisfy the beat, use of the actual beat is
1) too infeasible, because of the much higher speed
2) does not fit the cadence of the song

Even with the utilization of tisra triputa, etc, some beats have to be de-emphasized to fit the mood of the chapu talam, right?

-Sridhar
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srinivasanmail
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#9 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by srinivasanmail » 23 Aug 2011, 10:25

First of all we need to understand the historical background behind the development of the Talas, before we try to find out if Chapu Talas can be fit into one of the Sapta Talas.

Chapu Talas were primarily used very long time ago for folk songs in villages. At that time the villagers used Chapu Talas by clapping the hands appropriately for the folk songs the villagers sang. The Chapu Talas were very simple to clap and did not use too much of hand, palm or finger gestures and movements. Later when music developed, Talas were also developing along with music. 108 talas were formed with all the calculations and grammer. The Sapta Talas were formulated much later to make the Talas simpler and the Krithis composed later were all based on the Sapta Talas. However, our 'Periayavas' did not forget the chapu talas which were there before the Sapta Talas and even before the 108 Talas, and so they included them as one of the Sapta Talas.

Some experts discussed in 'Sathas' regarding fitting chapu talas into other forms of sapta talas, like roopakam, Jamba or Tirupta Talas. In the end they compromised with leaving it as it is. Hence trying to fit the chapu talas into sapta talas with angas like lagu, dhrutam and anudhrutam is not needed, krithis were composed for chapu talas and work very well. Why there is a need for the conversion then?
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srivasudevan
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#10 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by srivasudevan » 08 Dec 2017, 20:55

Excellent discussion on the history of chapu tALam. Even a novice like me could understand a thing or two.
purandara dAsa's composition "srikAnta" is listed as kanda chApu.
http://onlinebharatanatyam.com/2009/08/13/tala-system/ seems to say chApu is same as jAthi.
Isn't it common to use palm down twice and then palm up once to display tha ka tha ki tha ? I thought I have seen many singers do this for most of purandara dAsa krithis.
Can anyone clarify the mst common hand movement (if there is one) for kanda chApu and misra chApu? Also is there any difference between hand motion for kanda chApu and rupaka tAla?
- Vasudevan
(I have no formal education in carnatic music - please forgive my ignorance.)
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srivasudevan
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#11 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by srivasudevan » 08 Dec 2017, 21:00

An excellent treatment of this and other concepts can be found in https://ed.iitm.ac.in/~raman/taala.html . I have to read this carefully. Perhaps it answers my questions?
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sureshvv
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#12 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by sureshvv » 09 Dec 2017, 12:39

arunk wrote:
25 Mar 2011, 07:16
While mista-caou does seem to map nicely to a fast (time condensed) tisra triputa (as opposed to other 7 count talas like khanda-rupaka and misra-eka) - because of the 3+2+2 in both, same similarity does not exist between khanda-capu and khanda-jhampa.
How did khanda-jhampa get in here? Has 8 aksharas, no? Tisra Rupaka that you have later is correct and has the same cadence (slowed down).
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Christian Kenit Ram
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#13 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 17 Jul 2018, 23:47

arunk wrote:
25 Mar 2011, 07:16
While mista-caou does seem to map nicely to a fast (time condensed) tisra triputa (as opposed to other 7 count talas like khanda-rupaka and misra-eka) - because of the 3+2+2 in both, same similarity does not exist between khanda-capu and khanda-jhampa. Instead, I think khanda capu similarly maps to tisra-rupaka rather than khanda-jhampa - 2+3 in both - but i have never seen that mapping used (because tisrarupaka seems too rare). I cannot find one for sankeerna capu's 2+3+2+2 (?)

So can one argue that this equating misracapu as a condensed TIsratriputa as only a special case which just happens to make sense and cannot be generalized case at least one that conforms to actual use?

Arun
The formula you use for Sankirna Chapu ( 2+3+2+2 ) can be transformed into D+A+D+D+D by using the Shadanga system .
However the formula most used that I have heard in recordings is 2+2+2+3 . ( I can furnish links if needed ) . Similarly , that would be D+D+D+A+D .

Now , akin to the similarity between Tishra Triputa and Mishra Chapu ( this connection is not considered correct by some ) , I would establish some similarity between Sankirna Chapu ( 2+2+2+3 formula ) and Divya-Sankirna jati Jhampa Tala ( L6 A D ) ~~~ The last 3 counts of the Chapu Tala fit together with the final anudrutam + drutam of Jhampa .
That would not be as correct and exact as the Shadanga version from the first paragraph , but I think it is helpful to have some correlation with a Suladi Tala .
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SrinathK
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#14 Re: Angas for Chapu talas?

Post by SrinathK » 18 Jul 2018, 12:15

Actually, the chApu tALAs are technically speaking, not tALAs, but chandas.
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